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Path_Finder
Guest
I used this quote because it is helpful, also notice what else this essay says:
Again the same essay: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html
- Status
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OurLadysServant
Guest
You are ignoring the three quotes about yoga being mentioned along with transcental meditation and Egyptian occult, and calling spiritual entities. And all the other quotes about New Age. So after the Vatican mentions the danger of it, you say there is no danger at all because the last paragraph says ‘some’ techniques ‘may’ help modern man find God
Exact quotes:
Some of the traditions which flow into NEW AGE are: ancient Egyptian occult practices, Cabbalism, early Christian gnosticism, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, mediaeval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Zen Buddhism, YOGA and so on
Psychology is used to explain mind expansion as “mystical” experiences. YOGA, zen, transcendental meditation and tantric exercises lead to an experience of self-fulfilment or enlightenment. Peak-experiences (reliving one’s birth, travelling to the gates of death, biofeedback, dance and even drugs – anything which can provoke an altered state of consciousness) are believed to lead to unity and enlightenment. Since there is only one Mind, some people can be channels for higher beings.
Perhaps the clearest example of this, in terms of the relationship between New Age and Christianity, is the total recasting of the life and significance of Jesus Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile these two visions.
These spiritual entities are often invoked ‘NON-RELIGIOUSLY’ to help in RELAXATION aimed at better decision-making and control of one’s life and career.
It is clear that, in theory at least, the New Age often recognizes no spiritual authority higher than personal inner experience
This is a fundamental point which pervades ALL New Age thought and practice, and conditions in advance any otherwise positive assessment where we might be in favor of one or another aspect of its spirituality. As Christians, we believe on the CONTRARY that “man is essentially a creature and remains so for all eternity, so that an absorption of the human I in the divine I will NEVER be possible
New Age has a marked preference for Eastern or pre-Christian religions, which are reckoned to be uncontaminated by Judaeo-Christian distorsions. Hence great respect is given to ancient agricultural rites and to fertility cults. “Gaia”, Mother Earth, is offered as an alternative to God the Father, whose image is seen to be linked to a patriarchal conception of male domination of women. There is talk of God, but it is not a personal God; the God of which New Age speaks is neither personal nor transcendent. Nor is it the Creator and sustainer of the universe, but an “impersonal energy” immanent in the world, with which it forms a “cosmic unity”: “All is one”. This unity is monistic, pantheistic or, more precisely, PANAETHEISTIC
An adequate Christian discernment of New Age thought and practice cannot fail to recognize that, like second and third century gnosticism, it represents something of a compendium of positions that the Church has identified as HETERODOX. John Paul II warns with regard to the “return of ancient gnostic ideas under the guise of the so-called New Age: We cannot delude ourselves that this will lead toward a renewal of religion. It is only a new way of practising GNOSTICISM
It would be unwise and UNTRUE to say that everything connected with the New Age movement is good, it is on the whole difficult to reconcile it with Christian doctrine and spirituality.
None of the above is favourable to yoga or new age.
I don’t see how because the last paragraph says ‘some’ techniques are ok, that a person can ignore the ENTIRE contents above it. So after the Pope releases a whole doument about the dangers of new age, eastern meditation, and mentions yoga three times,
You guys quote two sentences out of the entire document of how ‘some’ techniques ‘help’,
-to completely negate ALL the warnings of the Pope on New Age, Eastern meditation, and yoga.
QUOTE=Path_Finder;12494587]I used this quote because it is helpful, also notice what else this essay says:
Again the same essay: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html
Exact quotes:
Some of the traditions which flow into NEW AGE are: ancient Egyptian occult practices, Cabbalism, early Christian gnosticism, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, mediaeval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Zen Buddhism, YOGA and so on
Psychology is used to explain mind expansion as “mystical” experiences. YOGA, zen, transcendental meditation and tantric exercises lead to an experience of self-fulfilment or enlightenment. Peak-experiences (reliving one’s birth, travelling to the gates of death, biofeedback, dance and even drugs – anything which can provoke an altered state of consciousness) are believed to lead to unity and enlightenment. Since there is only one Mind, some people can be channels for higher beings.
Perhaps the clearest example of this, in terms of the relationship between New Age and Christianity, is the total recasting of the life and significance of Jesus Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile these two visions.
These spiritual entities are often invoked ‘NON-RELIGIOUSLY’ to help in RELAXATION aimed at better decision-making and control of one’s life and career.
It is clear that, in theory at least, the New Age often recognizes no spiritual authority higher than personal inner experience
This is a fundamental point which pervades ALL New Age thought and practice, and conditions in advance any otherwise positive assessment where we might be in favor of one or another aspect of its spirituality. As Christians, we believe on the CONTRARY that “man is essentially a creature and remains so for all eternity, so that an absorption of the human I in the divine I will NEVER be possible
New Age has a marked preference for Eastern or pre-Christian religions, which are reckoned to be uncontaminated by Judaeo-Christian distorsions. Hence great respect is given to ancient agricultural rites and to fertility cults. “Gaia”, Mother Earth, is offered as an alternative to God the Father, whose image is seen to be linked to a patriarchal conception of male domination of women. There is talk of God, but it is not a personal God; the God of which New Age speaks is neither personal nor transcendent. Nor is it the Creator and sustainer of the universe, but an “impersonal energy” immanent in the world, with which it forms a “cosmic unity”: “All is one”. This unity is monistic, pantheistic or, more precisely, PANAETHEISTIC
An adequate Christian discernment of New Age thought and practice cannot fail to recognize that, like second and third century gnosticism, it represents something of a compendium of positions that the Church has identified as HETERODOX. John Paul II warns with regard to the “return of ancient gnostic ideas under the guise of the so-called New Age: We cannot delude ourselves that this will lead toward a renewal of religion. It is only a new way of practising GNOSTICISM
It would be unwise and UNTRUE to say that everything connected with the New Age movement is good, it is on the whole difficult to reconcile it with Christian doctrine and spirituality.
None of the above is favourable to yoga or new age.
I don’t see how because the last paragraph says ‘some’ techniques are ok, that a person can ignore the ENTIRE contents above it. So after the Pope releases a whole doument about the dangers of new age, eastern meditation, and mentions yoga three times,
You guys quote two sentences out of the entire document of how ‘some’ techniques ‘help’,
-to completely negate ALL the warnings of the Pope on New Age, Eastern meditation, and yoga.
QUOTE=Path_Finder;12494587]I used this quote because it is helpful, also notice what else this essay says:
Again the same essay: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html
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Path_Finder
Guest
The Bible also teaches us not to bear false witness. That includes saying things are there that are not.
O
OurLadysServant
Guest
Read the Pope’s document on new age.
I copied and pasted those quotes from the Vatican’s letter to the world.
Those exact quotes are there .
The Pope’s message himself.
I copied and pasted those quotes from the Vatican’s letter to the world.
Those exact quotes are there .
The Pope’s message himself.
P
Path_Finder
Guest
Yes, I have read them. Thank you.
X
Xeyed818
Guest
Don’t know if this question was answered already, but will send these along.
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION*
October 15, 1989
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
JESUS CHRIST THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE
A Christian reflection on the “New Age”
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html
“Some of the traditions which flow into New Age are: ancient Egyptian occult practices, Cabbalism, early Christian gnosticism, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, mediaeval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Zen Buddhism, Yoga and so on.(15)”
zenit.org/en/articles/yoga-and-christianity-more-than-what-meets-the-eye
Yoga and Christianity: More Than What Meets the Eye
By Father John Flynn, LC
ROME, NOV. 30, 2012 (Zenit.org).- The popularity of yoga and various forms of Eastern philosophies and meditation methods has grown enormously in recent years. Questions remain, however, as to what extent they are compatible with Christianity.
The latest contribution to the debate over this topic is a book just published by an Australian De La Salle brother, Max Sculley, titled “Yoga, Tai Chi, Reiki: A Guide for Christians” (Connor Court Publishing).
These techniques are widely recommended as being good for fitness and relaxation, and few would at first see anything dangerous about them, Bishop Julian Porteous, one of Sydney’s auxiliary bishops, commented in his foreword to the book.
However, he warned, “The world into which the practitioner is introduced is inimical to the Christian faith.”
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION*
October 15, 1989
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
JESUS CHRIST THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE
A Christian reflection on the “New Age”
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html
“Some of the traditions which flow into New Age are: ancient Egyptian occult practices, Cabbalism, early Christian gnosticism, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, mediaeval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Zen Buddhism, Yoga and so on.(15)”
zenit.org/en/articles/yoga-and-christianity-more-than-what-meets-the-eye
Yoga and Christianity: More Than What Meets the Eye
By Father John Flynn, LC
ROME, NOV. 30, 2012 (Zenit.org).- The popularity of yoga and various forms of Eastern philosophies and meditation methods has grown enormously in recent years. Questions remain, however, as to what extent they are compatible with Christianity.
The latest contribution to the debate over this topic is a book just published by an Australian De La Salle brother, Max Sculley, titled “Yoga, Tai Chi, Reiki: A Guide for Christians” (Connor Court Publishing).
These techniques are widely recommended as being good for fitness and relaxation, and few would at first see anything dangerous about them, Bishop Julian Porteous, one of Sydney’s auxiliary bishops, commented in his foreword to the book.
However, he warned, “The world into which the practitioner is introduced is inimical to the Christian faith.”
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Path_Finder
Guest
Here again is the Kripa foundation of Father Pereira, Father Pereira was entrusted with the responsibility of taking care of sick by Mother Teresa.
kripafoundation.org/
Father Pereira is a Yoga practitioner and uses it with those he helps.
kripafoundation.org/
Father Pereira is a Yoga practitioner and uses it with those he helps.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Thank you, Path_Finder. A direct quote with a location. Why couldn’t OurLadysServant do that?
Notice also that OurLadysServant takes it out of context. No one here argues that, “meditation techniques need to be purged of presumption and pretentiousness.” Now can someone explain how “a flight from self” can be accomplished without “self-emptying”? Or “surrender” without “stillness”? When characterized by presumption and pretentiousness even prayer itself, no matter how traditional, is dangerous.
What we see in this document are warnings about philosophy and motivation. Is what we do about us or about God? What are we trying to accomplish and how do we understand it?
I see that all of “Celtic Christianity” is also thrown into the New Age bin. Why not inscense and bells? Even fasting was mentioned a while back. Clearly things are not as black and white as some would like them to be. It takes discernment and that is what the documents intend.
OurLadysServant, please help me understand what “genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions” are. What practices of meditation from non-Christian religions is the document referring to?
6.2. Practical steps
First of all, it is worth saying once again that not everyone or everything in the broad sweep of New Age is linked to the theories of the movement in the same ways. Likewise, the label itself is often misapplied or extended to phenomena which can be categorised in other ways. The term New Age has even been abused to demonise people and practices. It is essential to see whether phenomena linked to this movement, however loosely, reflect or conflict with a Christian vision of God, the human person and the world. The mere use of the term New Age in itself means little, if anything. The relationship of the person, group, practice or commodity to the central tenets of Christianity is what counts.
E
eatpraylove11
Guest
Oh my…I have to disagree with this post. Yoga and meditation are great for mind and body. There are many ways to meditate and relax, you do not have to chant if it makes you uncomfortable. As someone else stated, yoga is a wonderful form of strength training and exercise. Please do not shun something you have not tried or done your own research on.
C
christofirst
Guest
Consider these words from our Holy Father during his September, 1987, visit to my own Los Angeles, addressing the followers of various religions in the U.S.:
"To the Buddhist community, which reflects numerous Asian traditions as well as American, I wish respectfully to acknowledge your way of life, based upon compassion and loving kindness and upon a yearning for peace, prosperity, and harmony for all beings. May all of us give witness to compassion and loving kindness in promoting the true good of humanity.
To the Hindu community: I hold in esteem your concern for inner peace and for the peace of the world, based not upon purely mechanistic or materialistic political considerations, but on self-purification, unselfishness, love and sympathy for all. May the minds of all people be imbued with such love and understanding."***
I would humbly ask you, why would Saint Pope John Paul II say such things if Buddhism and Hinduism, and practices associated with them like Yoga, opened one to demonic influence? Was he just being polite? Wouldn’t that be very disingenuous if he truly felt that these good people were practicing religions of false gods and demons?
As others have pointed out, you seem to be eliminating the role our intention plays in any religious practice. After all, if I devoutly pray the Rosary, but my sole intention is that God hasten a painful death for my enemy, surely I have missed the whole point of my religion. Prudence and right intention is necessary in all things, be it the Rosary or Yoga.
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Hobbes42
Guest
Yoga is, and always has been an essentially religious practice.
It is an integral part of tantric practices preferred by Vajrayana Buddhism. (Honestly, that stuff is nasty. The Dalai Lama ain’t so cute or innocent
)
That said, there is a difference between Catholic meditation which has been written about by saints and is oriented towards God, and “stillness” and “no-self” meditation found in Buddhism, don’t even begin to talk about deity yoga either
It’s kinda simple, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary or God wouldn’t seem to be wrong, trying to “empty” the mind and “free oneself of desire” or any Buddhist ideas like that, is akin to idolatry. You wouldn’t practice dharma, why practice yoga?
It is an integral part of tantric practices preferred by Vajrayana Buddhism. (Honestly, that stuff is nasty. The Dalai Lama ain’t so cute or innocent
)That said, there is a difference between Catholic meditation which has been written about by saints and is oriented towards God, and “stillness” and “no-self” meditation found in Buddhism, don’t even begin to talk about deity yoga either
It’s kinda simple, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary or God wouldn’t seem to be wrong, trying to “empty” the mind and “free oneself of desire” or any Buddhist ideas like that, is akin to idolatry. You wouldn’t practice dharma, why practice yoga?
M
Michael_Mayo
Guest
There is a thread on St John of the Cross and Mind emptying. Come have a look and comment.Yoga is, and always has been an essentially religious practice.
It is an integral part of tantric practices preferred by Vajrayana Buddhism. (Honestly, that stuff is nasty. The Dalai Lama ain’t so cute or innocent
That said, there is a difference between Catholic meditation which has been written about by saints and is oriented towards God, and “stillness” and “no-self” meditation found in Buddhism, don’t even begin to talk about deity yoga either
It’s kinda simple, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary or God wouldn’t seem to be wrong, trying to “empty” the mind and “free oneself of desire” or any Buddhist ideas like that, is akin to idolatry. You wouldn’t practice dharma, why practice yoga?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=894914
Of course the question to be asked is what does that, “empty mind” mean? Certianly not unconsciousness. And yet St John speaks of resting the faculties. “…a soul is greatly impeded from reaching this high estate of union with God when it clings to any understanding or feeling or imagination or appearance or will or manner of its own, or to any other act or to anything of its own, and cannot detach and strip itself of all these.”
*Ascent of Mt Carmel *
Book 2 Chapter 4 Paragraph 4
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Short answer: Because I can.
http://www.prettytough.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/tadasana.jpg
Look! I’m doing a yoga pose and I have no bloody clue what dharma is!
http://www.troll.me/images/omg-rage-face/what-sorcery-is-this-thumb.jpg
Apparently, the only people who would say yes to your question would be the Onion.
Buddhist Extremist Cell Vows To Unleash Tranquility On West
Oooooh! Tranquility sounds sooooo demonic!
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on_the_hill
Guest
Oh, good grief.
Yes, yoga is dangerous. I have the flexibility of a toothpick, and yoga is painful, which is why I don’t do it. Also, I hate calming music and soft lighting. It agitates me and makes me anxious, then I get grumpy. So, in effect, it’s more dangerous for the people around me.
Seriously? Has a thread gone on for 19 pages over whether or not it is dangerous? Are all the millions of people in the world who practice yoga demonically possessed?
If we would stop looking into nooks and crannies for the imaginary scary things and focus on the tangible scary things that are right in front of our eyes like hunger, violence, homelessness, poverty, and pestilence, we wouldn’t have to worry about trivialities like Yoga at all.
Yes, yoga is dangerous. I have the flexibility of a toothpick, and yoga is painful, which is why I don’t do it. Also, I hate calming music and soft lighting. It agitates me and makes me anxious, then I get grumpy. So, in effect, it’s more dangerous for the people around me.
Seriously? Has a thread gone on for 19 pages over whether or not it is dangerous? Are all the millions of people in the world who practice yoga demonically possessed?
If we would stop looking into nooks and crannies for the imaginary scary things and focus on the tangible scary things that are right in front of our eyes like hunger, violence, homelessness, poverty, and pestilence, we wouldn’t have to worry about trivialities like Yoga at all.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Ironically, I’m the same yet I still defend yoga purely on the grounds of how silly this thread was from the start.
Greetings fellow angry toothpick person!
O
on_the_hill
Guest
:tiphat:Ironically, I’m the same yet I still defend yoga purely on the grounds of how silly this thread was from the start.
Greetings fellow angry toothpick person!
I exercise a lot and have all but given up stretching afterward. For YEARS I faithfully stretched regularly and never improved my flexibility by a fraction of an inch.
I’m 47. There was one day in my entire life that I was able to touch my toes, when I was about 12 years old.
C
christofirst
Guest
If only you had been there to warn Blessed Pope Paul VI when he said these words to the Dalai Lama at Rome in 1973:It is an integral part of tantric practices preferred by Vajrayana Buddhism. (Honestly, that stuff is nasty. The Dalai Lama ain’t so cute or innocent
"We are happy to welcome Your Holiness today, at the beginning of your first journey to countries in this part of the world. You come to us from Asia, the cradle of ancient religions and human traditions which are rightly held in deep veneration. The Catholic Church sincerely respects those ways of conduct and those teachings of other religions which mirror the ray of eternal truth enlightening all men."
If he wasn’t referring to Yoga, what could it be about Buddhism that mirrors the ray of eternal truth which enlightens all men? The Dalai Lama’s way of meditating? Can’t be, since “emptying the mind” lets in demons. But there must be something about Buddhism which “mirrors the ray of eternal truth,” or the Holy Father would not have said it.
Now, you would rather pray the Rosary? Wonderful! Me too. But isn’t it possible, considering the words of the Holy Father, that even Yoga can in some way mirror the eternal truth? If a Christian finds that the postures of yoga improves their physical, mental, or even spiritual sense of well-being so as to better serve the Lord and the Church, you would still insist they refrain from such exercise?
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Flexibility comes by holding a stretch more than a minute and then stretching even further. If you are like me, it is a struggle to have the patience.
M
Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Wow I’m glad I came back and checked on this thread. :bounce:
Actual intelligence is starting to flow into it, in increasing concentrations. Like golly can we live in the peace of Christ without paranoia for anyone who Doesn’t Think And Act like Us? :newidea:
Maybe now I can go back to just fearing God, and not so much Buddhists or yoga practitioners. For a while there I was afraid if I made just the wrong move to reach for the can of corn on the high shelf, demons would fly out of the cabinet and torment me.
Actual intelligence is starting to flow into it, in increasing concentrations. Like golly can we live in the peace of Christ without paranoia for anyone who Doesn’t Think And Act like Us? :newidea:
Maybe now I can go back to just fearing God, and not so much Buddhists or yoga practitioners. For a while there I was afraid if I made just the wrong move to reach for the can of corn on the high shelf, demons would fly out of the cabinet and torment me.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Patience? Sure it’s not pain tolerance? :stretcher:
Maybe you should cross yourself seventy times before doing that.
(If it were me though, I’d just zap the suckers. Being a mage leaves me enough on my plate already.)- Status