Priest facing people during the Mass

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MarkRobert52

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I sometimes get into heated discussions concerning the Priest facing the people during the Mass. It is my belief that this correct way the Mass should be conducted. After all Jesus faced the apostels during the last supper.
 
I think this is something that changed from Vatican II, to better engage the people in the sacrifice of the Mass. I don’t have my GIRM handy, but I would bet that it’s stated in there, you may be able to check online if no one else replies.
 
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MarkRobert52:
I sometimes get into heated discussions concerning the Priest facing the people during the Mass. It is my belief that this correct way the Mass should be conducted. After all Jesus faced the apostels during the last supper.
Actually the Last Supper was at a table like any other supper so Jesus may have been sitting on the same side of the table as some of the Apostles.
 
First, the GIRM does not specify the normal position for the priest. It does specify those times when he is expected to face the people.

Second, there have been churches that, for whatever reason, virtually forced the priest to face the people long before the Second Vatican Council (St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome is the leading example). Until somewhere in the 12th or 13th century all altars were free-standing, but tradition held that the priest and the people face east when celebrating the Liturgy. In the rubrics for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom it is assumed that all face east since there are directives for the deacon to go out the north door to the holy place (sanctuary) and return via the south door. Of course, it the church is not built on an east-west orientation, these become “virtual north and south” or “liturgical north and south.”

Many, including Pope Benedict XVI, contend that it was a mistake to have the priest face the people. Whether it was or not is not terribly relevant as it is the posture of over 90% of the Masses said around the world.

Deacon Ed
 
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MarkRobert52:
I sometimes get into heated discussions concerning the Priest facing the people during the Mass. It is my belief that this correct way the Mass should be conducted. After all Jesus faced the apostels during the last supper.
Some say in that day people reclined at meals which may or may not had them facing one another. Where did you get your information that Jesus was facing the 12 ?

 
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MarkRobert52:
I sometimes get into heated discussions concerning the Priest facing the people during the Mass. It is my belief that this correct way the Mass should be conducted. After all Jesus faced the apostels during the last supper.
Actually, the proper position is for the priest to be facing the altar. This was never changed liturgically but so many figured, “hey, so much has changed with Vatican II, we should change this too,” and it sorta stuck. But the priest is not to face the congregation. This takes the focus off God and puts it on the community. Bad idea. When the priest faces away from the people he acts as head of the community leading to people in the worhip of the Divine Lord through the Holy Sacrifice. I suggest you read “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now his Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI).
 
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ByzCath:
Actually the Last Supper was at a table like any other supper so Jesus may have been sitting on the same side of the table as some of the Apostles.
The Jewish table had all the diners on the same side to provide access for the servers. Jesus sat on the same side as the Apostles…
 
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buffalo:
The Jewish table had all the diners on the same side to provide access for the servers. Jesus sat on the same side as the Apostles…
shouldn’t we all want to be on the same side too…😉
 
Deacon Ed:
Many, including Pope Benedict XVI, contend that it was a mistake to have the priest face the people.
This is worth reposting, I found it here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=85283 (post #14)

buffalo said:
THE SPIRIT OF THE LITURGY, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

As time has its sacred symbolism, so does space - the place of worship and its appropriate ordering and disposition. Ratzinger again draws attention to the way in which Catholic churches manifest the succession between Old and New Covenants: the central altar as the place of sacrifice, inherits and replaces the role of the Temple, while the lectern, pulpit or ambo for the proclamation of God’s Word to the assembled people follows naturally from the disposition of the synagogue, with its ‘Shrine of the Torah’ honouring the inspired Scriptures. In this context the author gives us a fascinating excursion into the origin of worshipping ad orientem - towards the East. While synagogue worship was oriented toward Jerusalem, the place of the Temple, Christians now look toward Christ, whose future coming in glory is aptly symbolized by the brilliance of the rising sun. As is well known, Cardinal Ratzinger has been among those favoring a return to the traditional position of the priest at Mass, in which both he and the people are turned together towards Christ. Here (p. 68) he tells us that:

In the early Church, prayer towards the east was regarded as an apostolic tradition. We cannot date exactly when this turn to the east, the diverting of the gaze from the Temple, took place, but it is certain that it goes back to the earliest times and was always regarded as an essential characteristic of Christian liturgy (and indeed of private prayer).

These are strong words. Can something believed to be an “apostolic tradition”, and indeed, an “essential characteristic” of Christian liturgy, be so readily discarded as it has been since the 1960s? The position versus populum, now almost universal in celebrations according to the post-conciliar Roman Missal, was in fact unheard-of for fifteen centuries after Christ, and had its origin in the heretical Eucharistic theology of the Protestant Reformers. Ratzinger dedicates an entire chapter (“The Altar and the Direction of Liturgical Prayer”) to this question, pointing out that Vatican Council II never even suggested this novel change of position, and exposing the principal arguments in favor of it as being historically unfounded. “The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself” (p. 80)

This ‘self-centredness’ of the community is in turn linked to the new emphasis on the Mass as a ‘meal’. The liturgical innovators have assured us that the altar “had to be positioned in such a way that priest and people looked at each other and formed together the circle of the celebrating community. This alone - so it was said - was compatible with the meaning of the Christian liturgy, with the requirement of active participation” (p. 77). But even this concept of how a ‘meal’ would have been celebrated in biblical and patristic times - ‘gathered round the table of the Lord’, as a popular post-conciliar ditty puts it - is woefully anachronistic! Ratzinger quotes (p. 78) the noted French scholar Fr. Louis Bouyer, whose research has shown that:

In no meal of the early Christian era, did the president of the banqueting assembly ever face the other participants. They were all sitting, or reclining, on the convex side of a C-shaped table, or of a table having approximately the shape of a horseshoe. The other side was always left empty for the service. Nowhere in Christian antiquity, could have arisen the idea of having to ‘face the people’ to preside at a meal. The communal character of a meal was emphasised just by the opposite disposition: the fact that all the participants were on the same side of the table.
 
There has never been a directive from Rome stating that the priest is to face the naive of the Church (St Peter’s is an exception by Papal Privileged) but rather the practice began in the United States and quickly spread to other jurisdictions. As has been stated in another place a careful read of the GIRM in the Latin actually implies the the priest at times must turn to face the people. My Archbishop has already made statement that a change in the posture of the priest is most probably eminent.
 
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buffalo:
The Jewish table had all the diners on the same side to provide access for the servers. Jesus sat on the same side as the Apostles…
So then he faced the same way as the apostles, not towards them.
 
The way in which so many of our churches are oriented makes the facing East kind of problematic. In facing the newer free standing altars I suppose the priest is still doing what they have always done which is to face the altar. If this sometimes results in him also facing the people, one could perhaps accept that as a secondary issue. What I personally have been grateful for is that we all get to see the action, which is no longer obscured by the wide old fiddleback chausable, taking place on the altar . Now if the priest were sacrificing a steer on the altar, which was said to be 75 feet on a side, in the old temple, that would be a real show even for the people in the back pews. If Benedict decides that we go back to the way it was in my youth, it would certainly not create a crisis of faith in my life.
 
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rwoehmke:
The way in which so many of our churches are oriented makes the facing East kind of problematic. In facing the newer free standing altars I suppose the priest is still doing what they have always done which is to face the altar. If this sometimes results in him also facing the people, one could perhaps accept that as a secondary issue. What I personally have been grateful for is that we all get to see the action, which is no longer obscured by the wide old fiddleback chausable, taking place on the altar . Now if the priest were sacrificing a steer on the altar, which was said to be 75 feet on a side, in the old temple, that would be a real show even for the people in the back pews. If Benedict decides that we go back to the way it was in my youth, it would certainly not create a crisis of faith in my life.
Actually when the Church is not built in the East/West manner then the Altar is said to be liturgical East. So that the way the people are facing is considered East for the Liturgy.
 
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ByzCath:
Actually when the Church is not built in the East/West manner then the Altar is said to be liturgical East. So that the way the people are facing is considered East for the Liturgy.
Correct because Christ is the true east. However, as Benedict XVI says it is more fitting to incorporate the cosmological dimention of the liturgy by facing natural east if at all possible. Of course that is dealt with extensively in his book “Spirit of the Liturgy.”
 
Many, including Pope Benedict XVI, contend that it was a mistake to have the priest face the people. Whether it was or not is not terribly relevant as it is the posture of over 90% of the Masses said around the world.
I am afraid it is quite relevant. If we are improperly conducting a rite in most of the Church, we run the terrible risk of incorrectly catechising the faithful by way of unorthodoxy in the Mass- the only bit of Catholicism most Catholics allow themselves to be exposed to.

If people take offence at the priest facing East, and leave, it is not a crisis, or even regrettable. A small number of those who truly believe is preferable to a large number of feigned believers. (roughly quoted from St. Pius X, I believe).
 
Servus Pio XII:
I am afraid it is quite relevant. If we are improperly conducting a rite in most of the Church, we run the terrible risk of incorrectly catechising the faithful by way of unorthodoxy in the Mass- the only bit of Catholicism most Catholics allow themselves to be exposed to.
I fail to see how the direction the priest faces affects catechesis. It is equally possible to present the teachings of the Church regardless of the position of the priest since his position is neither a matter of doctrine nor of dogma.
Servus Pio XII:
If people take offence at the priest facing East, and leave, it is not a crisis, or even regrettable. A small number of those who truly believe is preferable to a large number of feigned believers. (roughly quoted from St. Pius X, I believe).
And, unfortunately, taken out of context. Since, as a deacon, I have been given the cura animarum of the people in the parishes I am assigned to serve, I have to account for their souls at the time of judgement. The same is true for the priests of my parish. The bishop of my diocese has to account for all the souls in the diocese. To drive people away from the Church is never a choice.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
I fail to see how the direction the priest faces affects catechesis. It is equally possible to present the teachings of the Church regardless of the position of the priest since his position is neither a matter of doctrine nor of dogma.

And, unfortunately, taken out of context. Since, as a deacon, I have been given the cura animarum of the people in the parishes I am assigned to serve, I have to account for their souls at the time of judgement. The same is true for the priests of my parish. The bishop of my diocese has to account for all the souls in the diocese. To drive people away from the Church is never a choice.

Deacon Ed
I agree (with the first part). Although this is a very regrettable change that I hope is returned to the way it should be, it’s not a matter of faith or morals so there’s no reason to think of it as being some kind of heresy. However, I think that some people in the Church need to be sternly corrected and then if they do not listen, be driven out of the Church like Our Lord drove them out of the temple or St. Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland. The Church needs to undergo an earthly purgatory to cleanse itself b/c it’s in pretty rough shape. If that means ticking EDIT people off and hurting peoples’ feelings b/c they don’t like what the Church teaches regarding the supposedly “sensitive” areas like sodomy and extra ecclesiam nulla salus, then so be it. Going to extremes to keep the # of Catholics high isn’t doing the Church any good. The gospel of tolerance has been preached for 40 years and it hasn’t helped the Churh much. We need to return to the old ways of doing things and stop tolerating dissidents.
 
Deacon Ed:
To drive people away from the Church is never a choice.

Deacon Ed
Then why did the Holy Father say he prefers a smaller Church?
 
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