Priest Packing Heat?

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crumblymunky said:
Should a priest carry a handgun? I love guns. I also love God, so much so that I am about to enter seminary. I don’t see a problem with carrying a gun as a priest, because I don’t view protecting yourself from someone as murder. I know there isn’t any canon law forbidding it, but there seems to be a stigma against handguns or priests having the ability to protect themselves.

So, thoughts? I haven’t decided one way or another on the topic. I’m definitely going to have guns as a priest, for hunting and such, but everyone knows that there is a substantial difference between a hunting gun and a protection gun.
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I have known priests who had guns, rifles or shot guns to hunt with. But I never heard of a priest carrying a hand gun and I think most bishops would forbid their priests from carrying hand guns. I can’t think of a single saint who carried weapons. So I would advise you to give up that idea. If you want to hunt you can have a rifle or shot gun. Although I shudder a bit when I think of a priest doing much more than hunting squirrels or rabbits, it just seems so unnecessary. I just don’t see the need for hunting large animals, we aren’t living in pioneer days when deer and such supplimented the family diet or perhaps provided the only meat a family might have in the winter. Hunting for sport makes no sense to me…
Pax
Linus2nd
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
Apparently you’ve never fought over water before.
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This is true. 🙂
Lost_Wanderer said:
This is nonsense. I don’t need to play Assassin’s Creed to know that targeting a public figure means targeting that and only that target alone. The guards main objective is to protect the Pope. Sure they protect the citizens while they’re at it but it’s not the citizens who really need as much protection as a prominent figure. What point are you even trying to make here? :confused:
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When you quoted me… the part I wrote about the Pope and the part I wrote about civilians were two separate sentences and didn’t belong together. I said ‘There are many citizens who don’t carry weapons *, and although a priest has the same right as anybody else to carry a gun if he so chooses, I think he should think about the morality of doing so.’

I truly believe that. And right after that I said ’ To carry a weapon is to have intention to use it because if a person carrying a gun is attacked, their natural instinct would be to pull the weapon out and shoot.’ This I truly believe also.
Lost_Wanderer said:
And clearly, JP2 knew as much. Otherwise, why is the Swiss Guard still standing? Because protection doesn’t just have to come in the form of what you conceal in your pocket but neither should you think extraordinary moments of divine intervention are be-all-end-all substitute for sensible precaution.
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I’m not disputing self defense… I support self defense, that includes for Priests. I’m talking specifically about Priests carrying guns …the Vatican supports gun control too, I might add.

Then I said ‘Jesus taught us to love our enemies, forgive their offenses, turn the other cheek. And most people who get attacked get injured, not killed. I believe a priest should trust in God rather than their gun. If a priest dies in service of God, think of the reward he would receive. Our focus really shouldn’t be all about this life… we should focus on the next one. Living with a death on your hands wouldn’t be an easy thing, I imagine.’
Lost_Wanderer said:
So I’m guessing we should permit abortion because think of the reward an infant in heaven would receive since they did not spend so much time in this oh-so-rotten world.
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This doesn’t equate to my argument at all… Life is a gift and is precious… but it should be used for the service of God, and we shouldn’t have our treasure stored up here. We should learn to trust in God.
sudy said:
Jesus’ whole message was love, forgiveness and sacrifice. A priest is someone who has dedicated his whole life to walk the path with Jesus.

Matthew 16: 24-25 'Then Jesus said to His disciples, ‘If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.’

Matthew 10: 28 ‘Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear Him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell.’

1 John 4: 18 ’ In love there is no fear, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear implies punishment and no one who is afraid has come to perfection in love.’

1 John 4: 20 …‘since no one who fails to love the brother whom he can see can love God whom he has not seen.’

It’s not my place to say that a Priest cannot carry a weapon… I’m saying that a Priest should think about the morality of doing so… and look at their own conscience for guidance.
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At the end of the day… I’m only offering another opinion to give another side of the argument 🙂 But if we really don’t agree on this, I don’t see the point of playing tit for tat about it.

God bless.*
 
sudy said:
Jesus’ whole message was love, forgiveness and sacrifice. A priest is someone who has dedicated his whole life to walk the path with Jesus.

Matthew 16: 24-25 'Then Jesus said to His disciples, ‘If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.’

Matthew 10: 28 ‘Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear Him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell.’

1 John 4: 18 ’ In love there is no fear, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear implies punishment and no one who is afraid has come to perfection in love.’

1 John 4: 20 …‘since no one who fails to love the brother whom he can see can love God whom he has not seen.’

It’s not my place to say that a Priest cannot carry a weapon… I’m saying that a Priest should think about the morality of doing so… and look at their own conscience for guidance.
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Our first Pope…Peter carried a weapon…🤷

There is nothing immoral about having a tool. An axe can kill just as well as a gun, but I’m sure people aren’t oppossed to Priests having axes.

Whether a priest should kill someone trying to kill him, Is an individual call based on the circumstances. It certainly is not immoral for him to shoot someone trying to harm him. He is not told he must be a human sacrifice under penalty of sin which this thread seems to infer.
 
Priests are vulnerable mostly to theft of the rectory. I know a priest who was stabbed to death. Though he had a gun, he didn’t have time to reach for it. But I think most definitely they should have one for self-defense if they have been to a Responsible Gun Owner class.
 
Jon_S said:
Our first Pope…Peter carried a weapon…🤷

There is nothing immoral about having a tool. An axe can kill just as well as a gun, but I’m sure people aren’t oppossed to Priests having axes.

Whether a priest should kill someone trying to kill him, Is an individual call based on the circumstances. It certainly is not immoral for him to shoot someone trying to harm him. He is not told he must be a human sacrifice under penalty of sin which this thread seems to infer.
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You’re right, Peter did carry a sword… though Jesus healed the victim’s ear after the event. I’m pretty sure I never heard that Peter used his sword again though. A fist can kill, as well as a gun. I’ve really no problem with self defense.

You know, I’m mistaken about the Vatican position on gun control btw… I had read something along those lines a while back and thought it was official but apparently it isn’t, so I take that back.

I agree that it’s an individual choice. What I was saying is that everyone, including Priests, who carry guns have to understand the intention of using them… because the natural reaction when under threat would be to take the gun out and shoot. The potential problem with this is evident in the US news lately, with the unharmed guy getting killed. To take somebody’s life, even in self defense, would be a truly great burden… regardless of the lack of sin for the shooter. To take away somebody’s life takes away that person’s chance to turn their life around.

I didn’t say that a Priest couldn’t/shouldn’t carry a weapon, I said he (or any anybody else) should consider the morality of doing so. I’m not suggesting that he be a human sacrifice… every life is precious, including his, and even moreso if he’s protecting others. I’m just saying that it’ll be so much easier to kill… even in error… than if you have no gun.

At the end of the day, a Priest… or other person, has their own conscience to guide them.

God bless.
 
sudy said:
This is true. 🙂

When you quoted me… the part I wrote about the Pope and the part I wrote about civilians were two separate sentences and didn’t belong together. I said ‘There are many citizens who don’t carry weapons *, and although a priest has the same right as anybody else to carry a gun if he so chooses, I think he should think about the morality of doing so.’

I truly believe that. And right after that I said ’ To carry a weapon is to have intention to use it because if a person carrying a gun is attacked, their natural instinct would be to pull the weapon out and shoot.’ This I truly believe also.

I’m not disputing self defense… I support self defense, that includes for Priests. I’m talking specifically about Priests carrying guns …the Vatican supports gun control too, I might add.

Then I said ‘Jesus taught us to love our enemies, forgive their offenses, turn the other cheek. And most people who get attacked get injured, not killed. I believe a priest should trust in God rather than their gun. If a priest dies in service of God, think of the reward he would receive. Our focus really shouldn’t be all about this life… we should focus on the next one. Living with a death on your hands wouldn’t be an easy thing, I imagine.’

This doesn’t equate to my argument at all… Life is a gift and is precious… but it should be used for the service of God, and we shouldn’t have our treasure stored up here. We should learn to trust in God.

At the end of the day… I’m only offering another opinion to give another side of the argument 🙂 But if we really don’t agree on this, I don’t see the point of playing tit for tat about it.

God bless.*
There are other threats other than human.

Try being a priest in Alaska and trying to defend yourself and your parishioners against bears and wolves.
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I can see it now: Dirty Fr. Harry:

“Do you feel holy, punk? Well, DO YOU?”

(say it with your best snarling Clint Eastwood voice).

I would like to think priests would not want to carry a deadly weapon, but I’m probably just naïve.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
I can’t think of a single saint who carried weapons.
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Then you’re not thinking very hard. 😉

St Joan of Arc
St Martin of Tours
St Maurice
St Sebastian
St George

Soldiers all, and clearly, carried weapons.
it just seems so unnecessary. I just don’t see the need for hunting large animals, we aren’t living in pioneer days when deer and such supplimented the family diet or perhaps provided the only meat a family might have in the winter.
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So… there’s a ‘need’ to buy meat at the local supermarket, but not a ‘need’ to harvest it oneself? :hmmm:
 
Hmm… as a chaplain’s aide, he would necessarily carry a sidearm while on duty, right?
 
Some good points have been made. However, in my mind, it does seem contradictory that a man ordained to follow the Prince of Peace should carry a side-arm.

Remember, Jesus told Peter to put away his dagger. Not the same context, of course, but this discussion made me think of that moment in scripture.
 
This may not be exactly on topic…but our priest…Irish…now retired…who has been in the US for many decades said the reason he would never become an American citizen is because as a priest he would never bear arms as required in the Oath of Allegeance .
 
Of course it is, and as you explained, there’s probably more context than what the picture shows. I just find it amusing, especially in the light of the “liturgical beretta” post.
 
crumblymunky said:
Should a priest carry a handgun? I love guns. I also love God, so much so that I am about to enter seminary. I don’t see a problem with carrying a gun as a priest, because I don’t view protecting yourself from someone as murder. I know there isn’t any canon law forbidding it, but there seems to be a stigma against handguns or priests having the ability to protect themselves.

So, thoughts? I haven’t decided one way or another on the topic. I’m definitely going to have guns as a priest, for hunting and such, but everyone knows that there is a substantial difference between a hunting gun and a protection gun.
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You can’t help or serve anyone if you’re dead. There’s nothing noble or admirable about getting killed over money or property and you can’t protect yourself or others if you don’t have the effective means to do so.

I recommend reading the catechism on self-defense, which discusses the requirement to value one’s own life, praying and meditating over it.

Trust God, but he gave us brains and expects us to use them. I trust and love God, but he gave me the intelligence to seek out a Doctor when I’m sick, not just pray. To take reasonable precautions when I ride a motorcycle vice just trusting he’ll keep me out of accidents. It’s kind of like my kids-- I’m less inclined to help them when they haven’t taken steps they easily could have taken themselves.
 
styrgwillidar said:
You can’t help or serve anyone if you’re dead. There’s nothing noble or admirable about getting killed over money or property and you can’t protect yourself or others if you don’t have the effective means to do so.

I recommend reading the catechism on self-defense, which discusses the requirement to value one’s own life, praying and meditating over it.

Trust God, but he gave us brains and expects us to use them. I trust and love God, but he gave me the intelligence to seek out a Doctor when I’m sick, not just pray. To take reasonable precautions when I ride a motorcycle vice just trusting he’ll keep me out of accidents. It’s kind of like my kids-- I’m less inclined to help them when they haven’t taken steps they easily could have taken themselves.
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This guy gets it! The problem I run into is that most people now a days have this notion that guns are evil, and that handguns are inherently immoral, which has been displayed several times in this thread already.

For clarification, I wouldn’t be carrying a pistol for my own protection, but for the protection of others. If someone wanted to kill me, that’s fine, but if someone starts gunning down people, I’m confident enough to know I could stop them.

Maybe my views would change in, say, 6 years, but I see nothing evil when I look at guns.
 
Jon_S said:
Great points!

I wonder if it would be not trusting God, or not having faith to have a fire extinguisher and use it if the rectory caught fire??
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Putting a fire OUT doesn’t usually kill a person.
 
How many martyrs of the early Church would there have been if the early Church was started in the 20th and 21st Century America?
 
triumphguy said:
How many martyrs of the early Church would there have been if the early Church was started in the 20th and 21st Century America?
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Do say the saints that were martyrs are more holy than the saints that were crusaders or military figures makes no sense.

They are both Saints

The truth is circumstances often dictate how we act. We hear about many martyrs, but when the Muslims tried to take over Europe and destroy Christianity, we hail them for using force and driving them back.

Yes this was harder for a small underground church, but no doubt it still occurred.

I don’t think we should be so naive to say that all Christians humbly went to death without any sort of fight.
 
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