Priest Packing Heat?

[triumphguy]

Do say the saints that were martyrs are more holy than the saints that were crusaders or military figures makes no sense.

They are both Saints

The truth is circumstances often dictate how we act. We hear about many martyrs, but when the Muslims tried to take over Europe and destroy Christianity, we hail them for using force and driving them back.

Yes this was harder for a small underground church, but no doubt it still occurred.

I don’t think we should be so naive to say that all Christians humbly went to death without any sort of fight.

I think it would be right to say the martyrs did.

And in terms of “rank” I think the martyrs rank higher than the crusader.

BTW how many crusader saints do we have in comparison to martyr saints?

 

[Peebo]

Catholic priest Father Capodanno went out on patrol in Vietnam to be a spiritual presence to the soldiers…he didn’t “pack heat” for his own protection…he was killed tending the wounded soldiers he so loved and cared for…by his sacrifice he showed us what Jesus would have done…which is who a priest is supposed to represent…not some gun totin’ cowboy.

 

[christofirst]

Catholic priest Father Capodanno went out on patrol in Vietnam to be a spiritual presence to the soldiers…he didn’t “pack heat” for his own protection…he was killed tending the wounded soldiers he so loved and cared for…by his sacrifice he showed us what Jesus would have done…which is who a priest is supposed to represent…not some gun totin’ cowboy.

I agree. What if Archbishop Oscar Romero or Blessed Miguel Pro had backed up their trust in the Lord by packing heat? Even if they weren’t out to save their own skins (assuming a priest carries a gun to protect others), Blessed Miguel might have justified using deadly force to save his brother. “Viva Smith and Wesson!” Archbishop Romero, worried about the safety of the nuns at his Mass could have put down the Blessed Sacrament and busted out his trusty sidearm, dispatching those rogue soldiers with deadly aim. Should our priests reject or embrace the culture of violence?

 

[triumphguy]

One of the most inspiring images I have ever seen



See the rifle - it was used to kill him seconds later, yet Blessed Martin Pascual stands and smiles with his executioners, knowing what was to happen next, and anticipating the “victors crown of thorns.”



This moment and this image would never have happened if he was trying to defend himself.

How many more people are “saved” by a martyr?

 

[styrgwillidar]

Catholic priest Father Capodanno went out on patrol in Vietnam to be a spiritual presence to the soldiers…he didn’t “pack heat” for his own protection…he was killed tending the wounded soldiers he so loved and cared for…by his sacrifice he showed us what Jesus would have done…which is who a priest is supposed to represent…not some gun totin’ cowboy.

Sorry, I don’t think Father Capodanno had a choice. Religious in the services are classified as non-combatants and don’t carry weapons. Similar to medical personnel with even their transport vehicles marked with the distinctive Red Cross to indicate that to the enemy. The combatants are supposed to respect that and not fire upon them.

No one is saying a priest is trying to be a gun totin’ cowboy. Not sure why you see it that way.

He is expected, like any of us, to use his prudential judgment in fulfilling his responsibilities. In accordance with the catechism this does include valuing his own life and taking into consideration that the use of force in self-defense is not immoral.

The graveyards and mass graves of the world are full of folks who trusted in God to keep them safe. God had other plans for them, or at least allowed the circumstance to develop so their lives were taken. Perhaps their deaths, like the early martyrs, made an impact on their tormentors. Perhaps their deaths did make those folks reassess their values, their lives, maybe the deaths did some good in the world in turning some away from their own evil acts and instead going to seek God. Perhaps they had no affect at all, just removed from the world with any opportunity to do good in the world gone along with them. Folks saying just trust God to keep you safe, if that’s their intention, ignore the fact that it often doesn’t work out that way because reality is the eternal, not just this life.

So, like any other human being the OP needs to contemplate, meditate, pray and consider what he thinks will best allow him to complete the work God has intended for him in this world. There is nothing immoral in defending one’s life, or taking the precaution of having the effective means to do so. Like taking any other precaution intended to preserve his life. Kind of stupid to burn to death in a fire when you could have bought a fire extinguisher and smoke detectors ahead of time, die in biking accident which you could have prevented by wearing a helmet, or any other situation where a reasonable person could have applied some forethought to take some precautions for a worst case scenario. The last thing a person carrying a gun wants is to have to use it. Just like they don’t want to have the house on fire or crash on a bike.

 

[Gorgias]

BobCatholic:

kill or murder?

big difference.

Kill

You’re misreading the canons, triumphguy. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the impediment proceeds from voluntary homicide. BobCatholic’s “kill or murder?” is the appropriate question – and ‘murder’ is the answer that you’re looking for, not ‘kill’.

 

[christofirst]

Fires, accidents, and wild animals are not the same as humans. Comparing the actions we might take against one or the other only goes so far. Doing violence against another human being is not the same as putting out a fire or wearing a helmet. I understand our right to self-defense, and also the many ways we can chose to protect ourselves and others. And I would never seek to discourage a fledging vocation. I would only suggest that the aspiring priest think long and hard about his motives for carrying a gun, and the possible outcome for using that gun against another human being. If it brings you peace, then like our pope says, who am I to judge?

Still I wonder, should our priests embrace or reject the culture of violence?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Fires, accidents, and wild animals are not the same as humans. Comparing the actions we might take against one or the other only goes so far. Doing violence against another human being is not the same as putting out a fire or wearing a helmet. I understand our right to self-defense, and also the many ways we can chose to protect ourselves and others. And I would never seek to discourage a fledging vocation. I would only suggest that the aspiring priest think long and hard about his motives for carrying a gun, and the possible outcome for using that gun against another human being. If it brings you peace, then like our pope says, who am I to judge?

Still I wonder, should our priests embrace or reject the culture of violence?

I agree with your post and it made me think.

Would the Crusaders defending against Muslims during the middle ages be “embracing a culture of violence” or would they be fighting against a “culture of violence”

Are our Soldiers and military fighting ISIS “embracing a culture of violence” or fighting against a “culture of violence”

Are police officers taking down drug cartels and gangsters “embracing the culture of violence” or fighting against a “culture of violence”.

To me it seems, that if we are responding to violent incidents in a manner that has the goal of stopping the violence, then even if we use a gun or sword or bomb, it is only being used in a defensive manner to stop violence.

I think a priest who owned a gun would see it the same way. See it as a tool to use to possibly defend himself or others against an extreme and unjust act of violence.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Fires, accidents, and wild animals are not the same as humans. Comparing the actions we might take against one or the other only goes so far. Doing violence against another human being is not the same as putting out a fire or wearing a helmet. I understand our right to self-defense, and also the many ways we can chose to protect ourselves and others. And I would never seek to discourage a fledging vocation. I would only suggest that the aspiring priest think long and hard about his motives for carrying a gun, and the possible outcome for using that gun against another human being. If it brings you peace, then like our pope says, who am I to judge?

Still I wonder, should our priests embrace or reject the culture of violence?

A threat to your life is a threat to your life. You are not acting with malice towards someone else in defending your life. Shooting to stop a threat is not the same as shooting to kill. They run, you don’t shoot or stop shooting- objective accomplished. They’re stealing your TV at night, smile and wave then call your insurance company because there was no threat to your life.

In fact, if you are willing to carry a weapon it will be your last ditch precaution. There will be many others, most designed and intended to assist you in avoiding a situation requiring self-defense in the first place. (Avoiding stupid people in stupid places doing stupid things. Maintaining awareness of your surroundings, locking your doors and windows, alarms, a dog that’s good at barking)

 

[Brendan]

If you kill another human it is a canonical impediment to being ordained.

Actually, the irregularity (not impediment) is for voluntary homicide, which is canonically different from a death resulting from self defense

 

[Brendan]

Kill

As Georgias notes, the irregularity (not impediment) is for voluntary homicide. That is a distinct offense from a death resulting from self defense.

The first has moral culpability, the second does not.

 

[TheDoors]

I have known priests who had guns, rifles or shot guns to hunt with. But I never heard of a priest carrying a hand gun and I think most bishops would forbid their priests from carrying hand guns. I can’t think of a single saint who carried weapons. So I would advise you to give up that idea. If you want to hunt you can have a rifle or shot gun. Although I shudder a bit when I think of a priest doing much more than hunting squirrels or rabbits, it just seems so unnecessary. I just don’t see the need for hunting large animals, we aren’t living in pioneer days when deer and such supplimented the family diet or perhaps provided the only meat a family might have in the winter. Hunting for sport makes no sense to me…
Pax
Linus2nd

Then, very respectfully, you aren’t thinking hard enough. Saint Michael the Archangel is shown nearly universally armed and armoured, Saint Longinus found his salvation along a path of violence, and there was an entire legion of Christian Knights martyred of whom Saint Maurice is the most famous. Here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theban_Legion

And I’ve hunted to put food on the table since I was a small boy. I’ve found my prayer life greatly enhanced by long stretches of time alone in the woods with a rifle. Gives “silent contemplation” a little more motivation. I’m glad to hear you grew up in an area and a family where game didn’t provide meat over the winter. Your experiences and mine are not the same, and I don’t think you have a place to judge. Why should my parish have to pay to fill my fridge when I can do the same and that money can go to fixing the roof?

 

[christofirst]

I agree with your post and it made me think.

Would the Crusaders defending against Muslims during the middle ages be “embracing a culture of violence” or would they be fighting against a “culture of violence”

Are our Soldiers and military fighting ISIS “embracing a culture of violence” or fighting against a “culture of violence”

Are police officers taking down drug cartels and gangsters “embracing the culture of violence” or fighting against a “culture of violence”.

To me it seems, that if we are responding to violent incidents in a manner that has the goal of stopping the violence, then even if we use a gun or sword or bomb, it is only being used in a defensive manner to stop violence.

I think a priest who owned a gun would see it the same way. See it as a tool to use to possibly defend himself or others against an extreme and unjust act of violence.

Thank God for our police and military, and God protect them! But a priest is not, to my way of thinking, one of these fighters. His consecrated hands were not meant for killing, at least to my way of thinking. Yes, there are chaplains, and thank God for them too, but do they go armed? In the Crusades, did priests carry weapons and actively engage in the fighting? St. Francis boldly approached the sultan, but with the power of the Gospel, not a weapon. In a world beset with violence, who will show a better way, a way of peace, if not our priests? I acknowledge the argument about using violence to stop violence, but that must never be considered the best way, and I would hope our priests, at least, would want to model the best way for others.

 

[TheDoors]

Thank God for our police and military, and God protect them! But a priest is not, to my way of thinking, one of these fighters. His consecrated hands were not meant for killing, at least to my way of thinking. Yes, there are chaplains, and thank God for them too, but do they go armed? In the Crusades, did priests carry weapons and actively engage in the fighting? St. Francis boldly approached the sultan, but with the power of the Gospel, not a weapon. In a world beset with violence, who will show a better way, a way of peace, if not our priests? I acknowledge the argument about using violence to stop violence, but that must never be considered the best way, and I would hope our priests, at least, would want to model the best way for others.

I carried a gun for my chaplain. How is it in any way more holy to have someone else kill for you?

 

[Brendan]

I carried a gun for my chaplain. How is it in any way more holy to have someone else kill for you?

On my trips to Tanzania, the local bishop had armed guards patrol the complex at night, Awhile back, I I went off to one of the parishes in a trouble spot near the Rwanda border ( not too long after the troubles there., he sent two armed guards with me. The guards used AK-47’s that the bishop owned.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8885882&postcount=78

 

[triumphguy]

You’re misreading the canons, triumphguy. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the impediment proceeds from voluntary homicide. BobCatholic’s “kill or murder?” is the appropriate question – and ‘murder’ is the answer that you’re looking for, not ‘kill’.

When I applied to the permanent diaconate the official questionnaire asked the question “killed” and included abortion etc.

 

[LoganBice]

Comparing martyrs with someone murdered by a common criminal is unfair. A martyr dies for his faith in face of great persecution. Martyrs are killed for being Christian. If a psychopath came to kill me for no reason I am going to defend myself. If a tyrannical government captures me and puts me to death if I don’t renounce my faith… that a pretty big difference.

I don’t think a Priest having guns is wrong. Im sure there are many gun enthusiast Priests who just enjoy the sport of shooting.

As far as a Priest carrying a handgun for self-defense? I can’t see anything wrong in it. I can understand the arguments given against it, but I think it comes down to personal choice and God will not condemn someone who justifiably protected their life or the life of an innocent.

How can one claim that life is extremely sacred, and then go and say that a priest should accept death if someone tries to kill him?

I don’t think a priest carrying a weapon is wrong, HOWEVER, because priests live such a life that calls them to emulate Christ very closely I can totally understand if a Priest refuses to direct deadly force on an assaulter because the Priest is more then likely to be in a state of grace and not in a state of mortal sin like the assailant. Therefore one could assume that a Priest, who is very likely to get into heaven if his is killed, would not try and take another life because that assaulter is most likely in a state of grave sin. By choosing to die instead of defending himself with deadly force, one could view that as a selfless act because by not killing the perpetrator, the Priest is giving the main the opportunity to turn from his ways and come to reconciliation with God before he dies.

I am not implying that a Priest must give his own life in such a situation but if he was thinking along those lines it could be seen as a very compassionate thing to do for another.

 

[TheDoors]

On my trips to Tanzania, the local bishop had armed guards patrol the complex at night, Awhile back, I I went off to one of the parishes in a trouble spot near the Rwanda border ( not too long after the troubles there., he sent two armed guards with me. The guards used AK-47’s that the bishop owned.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8885882&postcount=78

I think that it is our duty in this day and age to protect those unable to protect themselves.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Comparing martyrs with someone murdered by a common criminal is unfair. A martyr dies for his faith in face of great persecution. Martyrs are killed for being Christian. If a psychopath came to kill me for no reason I am going to defend myself. If a tyrannical government captures me and puts me to death if I don’t renounce my faith… that a pretty big difference.

I don’t think a Priest having guns is wrong. Im sure there are many gun enthusiast Priests who just enjoy the sport of shooting.

As far as a Priest carrying a handgun for self-defense? I can’t see anything wrong in it. I can understand the arguments given against it, but I think it comes down to personal choice and God will not condemn someone who justifiably protected their life or the life of an innocent.

How can one claim that life is extremely sacred, and then go and say that a priest should accept death if someone tries to kill him?

I don’t think a priest carrying a weapon is wrong, HOWEVER, because priests live such a life that calls them to emulate Christ very closely I can totally understand if a Priest refuses to direct deadly force on an assaulter because the Priest is more then likely to be in a state of grace and not in a state of mortal sin like the assailant. Therefore one could assume that a Priest, who is very likely to get into heaven if his is killed, would not try and take another life because that assaulter is most likely in a state of grave sin. By choosing to die instead of defending himself with deadly force, one could view that as a selfless act because by not killing the perpetrator, the Priest is giving the main the opportunity to turn from his ways and come to reconciliation with God before he dies.

I am not implying that a Priest must give his own life in such a situation but if he was thinking along those lines it could be seen as a very compassionate thing to do for another.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: (2196)

It is a very personal decision and requires a lot of forethought. Even if you’re willing to carry a weapon, are you truly willing to use it? I respect a thoughtful decision either way.

If the priest is killed, well, he can no longer help anyone else. The intruder who was willing to kill him can now go on to hurt or kill others. No one is a mind reader or can truly understand how their actions will affect someone else. But one wonders as you did, perhaps the priest being willing to be killed may be the key to the attackers salvation and something that God will incorporate into His plan. No way to know.

 

[Gorgias]

When I applied to the permanent diaconate the official questionnaire asked the question “killed” and included abortion etc.

I’m guessing that they were interested in whether there were any killings of any sort in your life history; and, if there were, they would have investigated further in order to determine whether they presented any difficulties to your application.