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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
How on God’s blue earth does every argument end up about altar girls? Unbelievable.
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Ockham
Guest
The bottom line is their Masses are valid and the excommunications lifted. The way some people talk here you’d think they were a satanic cult or something. Without the SSPX we may have lost the TLM and if you notice the Church today is taking us back to tradition. If all the ‘spirit of V2’ changes were so wonderful there would be no reason for correction.
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benedictgal
Guest
Evidently, the Polish contingent is doing well down here in our diocese. We have several Polish priests.
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Ockham
Guest
“Every argument”?
I’ve never debated to my recollection and didn’t bring it up here.
If you’re interested here’s the first thing that came up when I Googled it: adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html
Constantine stepped on a land mine.
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ProVobis
Guest
The disobedience is over and done with. Rome has acknowledged the consecrated bishops as having Apostolic Succession and all ordinations are valid. There have been no new consecrations since 1988 and Rome has lifted the excommunications. All’s that’s left at this point is determination of canonical status for the bishops and priests. But this is the same position held by the priests before the 1988 meltdown.
PS In my city, in the case where the one whose neighbor’s tree overhangs one’s property, the one has the legal permission to cut those branches as the one see fit. I do it all the time, as a matter of fact. By law one owns all the airspace over his property. Airplanes, however, are exempt from trespassing in this regard.
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benedictgal
Guest
But, validity is one thing, being illicit is a totally different matter altogether. Licitness is also important.
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JReducation
Guest
I’m not sure what point in my post you disagree with. My point is to state that the Tridentine Form was released, but the canons that determine how a diocese is governed have not. The bishop remains the pastor of the diocese.
While any diocesan priest can celebrate the Tridentine Form, it does not mean that any diocesan priest can change the way that business is done in his diocese. That was not addressed in SP.
We had that question in our diocese. The bishop was clear that the EF could be said, but he was also clear on the conditions. He made several:
- Numbers needed
- Number of people who want the EF vs number who want the OF
- No priest can be preasured into the EF
- Members of religious orders must have written permmission from their major superior
- The number of masses that a priest may say on Sunday is two
- If the parish schedule is changed it must benefit the largest number of people
My suggestion is that the people who want to introuce the EF into their parish, look at the hurdles and prepare. This way, when you approach a diocese with the request, you have answers to the concerns of the diocese.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ConstantineTG
Guest
There were last year. Granted they’re not bishops, but another case of disobedience:
blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009/06/17/update-sspx-to-ordain-new-priests-despite-vatican-warning/
Yup, but the hypothetical scenario I bought up is about cutting down the tree itself, and the process of doing that. Not just the branches. The point being, whats more important. One’s urgent desire, or the rule of law?
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Ockham
Guest
So we’re supposed to pretend there isn’t a priest shortage because the African and Polish seminaries are full?
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JReducation
Guest
Ockham, with all due respect, I believe that you missed Father’s point. He’s not saying that they are a cult or evil. He’s speaking about faculties.
I don’t know where you stand on the issue of faculties. But to those of us who are priests and religiuos, faculties are a major issue. If we do not have the proper permissions for ministry, sacramental or otherwise, we have no canonical standing in the Church. That is grave matter, whehter you’re talking about celebrating a mass, hearing confessions, running a Catholic school or a soup kitchen.
We did not enter the service of the Church to be at odds with her. Most of us believe that we cannot separate the authority of the Church from the authority of Christ. The authority of the Church is exercised by Peter and the bishops in communion with him.
I’ll give you a simple example, which is not a serious as the mass, but it may help. My community asked the local bsihop for permission to found a pro-life ministry in his diocese. The answer that came back was that we had to work under the supervision of a priest, whom the bishop picked. The priest whom he selected is not a Franciscan. He’s a member of another religious congregation. Normally, religious communities operate under the authority of their own men.
The case boiled down to a simple question. Do we enter the diocese to operate under the supervision of a priest from another community, as directed by the bishop or do we operate independently? Had we done that, we would have been out of compliance with the bishop and encouraged the faithful to cooperate with a ministry that was not approved by the bishop. In other words, we would have been encouraging the faithful to step outside of the system.
I believe that Benedictgal pointed out to the same thing. One must work within the parameters that one is given. Whether or not the ministry that we proposed was the best thing since sliced bread, it still would have been illegal to proceed outside of the bishop’s parameters.
To us who are obedient priests and religious, working within the law and within the system is part of who we are. The majority of priests and consecrated religious want to work within the system and to function legally. Not only is it important for our spiritual welfare, but it is important that we not lead the faithful outside of the canonical Church.
The Holy Father has made it clear the the SSPX has no canonical standing in the Church. They are not evil, nor are they a cult. But they remain suspended. Everytime they celebrate the mass, it’s illegal. Everytime they celebrate confession it’s invalid. Every marriage that they witness is also invalid. There are few cases when their celebration of Penance and Marriage are valid.
They claim many things using the argument “the Church supplies.” But there is a problem there. The Church supplies as long as the pope says that it supplies. The majority of the faithful don’t realize this. The pope has worded his statements so that the Church does not supply.
Again, this is why Father and Benedictgal have said that those seeking the EF must work within the system with what has been given to us. That statement is not a condemnation of the SSPX as evil. They are good people. But they are not within the system. Even good people can make very serious mistakes and place themselves in very precarious situations.
In conclusion, I don’t believe that the SSPX saved the Tridentine Form. I believe that they brought it to the attention of a large number of people. But the truth is that there are other great groups who are within the system and provide the Tridentine form, long before the Motu Propio:
Society of St. Peter
Institute of Christ the King
Canons of St. John Cantius
Franciscans of the Immaculate
Sons of the Holy Redeemer
In fact, the Franciscans of the Immaculate were given permission by our General Chapter to do this in the 1980s. They began very quietly in the diocese of Rome, with the permission of the local bishop (John Paul II). As they grew they became autonomous from the larger Franciscan group and a Diocesan Congregation. Eventually, they grew into a Pontifical Order. Today they are on several continents.
So it’s not that anyone is saying that the SSPX is evil or a cult. It’s that those of us who want to be faithful to the laws of the Church see that it is possible. We can look at these other groups and see how they have prospered and retained full canonical status just by being obedient and working slowly.
I liked what Benedictgal said about the wheels of the Vatican grinding slowly but finely. Because it speaks to this situation and to these examples. I’m not sure that I agree that the Holy Father wants to restore the Tridentine Form to its former place as the ordinary form. I don’t think that Pope Benedict is a man who plays those games. If this is what he wants, he would have said so. I believe that he meant what he said. He wants it to be the Extraordinary Form. That is different from his desire to see the OF celebrated correctly and the revisions for the English translation made. Just an aside, the OF is not being reformed for the universal Church. It is only the English translation that is being rewritten. The other Translations seem to be fine. The issue in the other countries is about fidelity to the rubrics, not the language.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
There is a shortage in the USA. There is not a worldwide shortage. You also have to remember that many religious orders decided to reduce the number of men that they allow to ordain, because they had a surplus of priests that they did not need to preserve their charism. Their charism was important to them. So they curtailed the recruiting of men to be ordained and increased their effort to recruit men to their way of lfie.
There is also the issue of cycles. The number of men entering the diocesan seminaries goes up and down in cycles. This is not new in the history of the Church. Right now the number of men in diocesan seminaries is on the rise. There are a number of regional seminaries that can not accept any more men and some that are approaching that point.
There is another fact that you have to be aware of. There was a time when there were many priests from the monastic and apostolic orders served in parishes. As Catholics dispersed all over suburbia the number of parishes increased. However, we (my community is among them), said that we would not folllow the Catholics into suburbia, because we were not founded to serve the middle classes. We have many priests who serve in soup kitchens, shelters, on the streets, communications ministry, retreat work, teaching, counseling, pro-life work, spiritual direction, manual labor, administration and so forth . . . in other words, a lot of work that is not parish related.
The changing face of society has also created an entirely new set of needs that those monastic, mendicant and apostolic orders must respond to because they are more in keeping with the vision of the founders than service to the middle classes or to parishes. We still serve poor parishes. We serve the middle classes in other areas such as family ministry, pro-life work, the care of the sick and so forth.
There are many factors that contribute to the shortage in the USA.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
Their Masses were always valid. As are the Masses of the Polish National Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Old Catholic Church, Society of St. Pius V, etc. Validity of their Mass and orders has never been in question.
They’re not a satanic cult. They are, currently, in the same boat as every other suspended priest and bishop. They are much like Fr. Marek Bozek in St. Louis who has been suspended yet continues to say Mass at a parish.
The SSPX has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.
And without the Protestant Reformation the Church might never have corrected the many abuses and sinful activities of the clergy nor would we have the traditional Latin Mass. Yet the ends do not justify the means.
That’s a seperate debate altogether…
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
The priest shortage is regional. Its not affecting everywhere.
Secondly, as of His Holiness 2009 letter the SSPX had 491 priests and 215 seminarians. Do you really think adding 706 to the 406,411 priests the Church already has is going to solve the shortage? That wouldn’t even be a 1% increase in priests.
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ProVobis
Guest
I thought they were disobedient because they didn’t move their site as the Vatican asked. But let’s be realistic here. The world didn’t stop spinning suddenly upon the removal of the excommunications. SSPX seminarians weren’t expected to jump out of windows. They were priests in forming and there are still more. Graduation and ordinations are planned months and years in advance. The bottom line, however, that the existing bishops when they die will no longer be able to ordain any more SSPX unless these talks end successfully and they consecrate more bishops. That’s the key thing and that’s why we’re still waiting for some kind of canonical recognition of their ministry; we’re not saying they have no latent ministry at present.
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ProVobis
Guest
Yes but it will be a more substantial increase in the number of priests who can and are willing to say the EF, unless you know something I don’t.
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Ockham
Guest
Is there another order with such a ratio of priests to seminarians?
My point in this thread is that if no other EF existed in my community I would happily participate at the SSPX and it’s not our business to tell anyone else they shouldn’t.
It’s sad how some people fly the ‘disobedience’ flag in this issue yet probably receive the Blessed Sacrament in their hands which started in our rite out of profound disobedience.
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Emmit_Fitzhume
Guest
Yeah, but that entire number of 491 priest are good quality priests. I can’t count on one hand the number of NO priests who I would consider orthodox Catholics, much less good priests. Nearly all of them allow abuses in their liturgies in one way or the other or don’t believe in one Catholic doctrine or another, or preach heresies from the ambo or lectern (if that is what they call those things now a days)
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Jo_Benedict
Guest
Note:
Please get back to the topic of the thread. This is not the place to debate the SSPX.
Please get back to the topic of the thread. This is not the place to debate the SSPX.
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Emmit_Fitzhume
Guest
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000750.htm
“The number of seminarians around the world rose from 115,919 at the end of 2007 to 117,024 at the end of 2008, an increase of more than 1 percent, it said.”
By those number provided—that is an increase of 1105 for one calendar year. An increase of 1% worldwide. I don’t know the exact number of semnarians for that year with the SSPX, but I would imagine it was approximately 200; Which means that this small insignificant Society that gets bashed all over this forum can account for roughly 18% of that 1% increase between 2007-2008. I imagine it is the same amount now, if not more. For the Society to be so small when compared to all the diocese worldwide and and all the orders such as the Franciscan, Jesuits, etc, we sure are doing our part and filling the ranks. WHy doesn’t everyone else step up? Now, if we were allowed a canonical status and full communion and the fear mondering stopped, how effective do you think we would be with vocations??? You can’t argue with facts.
“The number of seminarians around the world rose from 115,919 at the end of 2007 to 117,024 at the end of 2008, an increase of more than 1 percent, it said.”
By those number provided—that is an increase of 1105 for one calendar year. An increase of 1% worldwide. I don’t know the exact number of semnarians for that year with the SSPX, but I would imagine it was approximately 200; Which means that this small insignificant Society that gets bashed all over this forum can account for roughly 18% of that 1% increase between 2007-2008. I imagine it is the same amount now, if not more. For the Society to be so small when compared to all the diocese worldwide and and all the orders such as the Franciscan, Jesuits, etc, we sure are doing our part and filling the ranks. WHy doesn’t everyone else step up? Now, if we were allowed a canonical status and full communion and the fear mondering stopped, how effective do you think we would be with vocations??? You can’t argue with facts.
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benedictgal
Guest
Yes, we have gotten side-tracked in a major way. Suffice to say that I am hopeful that if the OP can get enough of us to commit to doing this and sustaining this, it might very well become reality. But, I cannot stress to the OP and anyone else in the same situation that we need to follow the Church’s parameters and work within her limits and requirements. We cannot choose alternative courses that will jeaopordize the very act we are trying to accomplish. We need to do this in communion with Peter.
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