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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Show the proof where is the data that shows this to be a functioning “mechanism of action”? everybody else wants to see it so what do you have?
Priest says morally licit to use the Pill to augment couple’s use of NFP
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astegallrnc
Guest
You wouldn’t ask this if you undestood mechanism of action. You aren’t ready for that information.
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hasikelee
Guest
aste, slightly off topic but I just now noticed your siggy and have to say that is absolutely hilarious!
to Texas roofer: what forms of education have you sought in the realm of human anatomy, biology and classic logic? I am curious to see the pathway of education you have taken to end up arguing in this area.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
:tsktsk: My bet is you have nothing a bluff is a bluff
Wow is there no level of Catholism that exceeds the desire to mis lead the public? I have enough education to read the Catechism 2482, 2483, 2508. Is their a level of education at which you believe the truth can changed by the educated party? if so what level is that?
It has been mentioned before in reading the postings on these threads concerning these issues I knew all the statements simply could not be true, so I began to look for the facts to separate the true statements from the false statements. btw the cite by Karin is a more factual based reference if you are interested in knowing the truth.
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hasikelee
Guest
Excuse me, texas! Goodness, take a breather! I was responding openly here and am disappointed at the way you sidestepped an oppurtunity for open discourse.
If you are unwilling to at least talk about things without fallacious ad homs, then I guess we can’t discuss anything further. If you are really interested in facts and truth, why such a hurry to shut down discourse?
And for that sidestep you popped in, I do have to say, do you honestly believe the majority of Catholics are uneducated? Hello, how many languages can the average pope speak? I thought John Paul II knew 12 languages fluently? lol.
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astegallrnc
Guest
LOL!! You are a riot! God bless you Texas Roofer, but you are wanting “data that shows this to be a functioning ‘mechanism of action’”. You would not make such a statement if you understood mechanism of action, therapeutic effects, side effects, etc.
The mechanism of action describes how a specific drug produces physiologic and biochemical changes at the cellular, tissue, and organ levels. It helps us understand how the drug works in the body. The therapeutic effects are why a medication is prescribed. To apply this information, you need a thorough understanding of human physiology.
Do you have evidence or data proving the pill is not an abortifacient? Do you have evidence the endometrial thickness has no impact of fertility? Why are u/s assessing the endometrium done during infertility treatments? What about endometrial biopsies? The reproductive endocrinologists seem to believe that the endometrium is vital to pregnancy. Why do the authors of Contraceptive Technology, Managing Contraceptive Pill Patients, Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology & Infertility, numerous Drug books, etc. list the thinning of the endometrium as a mechanism of action?
The experts may not have data but they have what is known and understood about human physiology and endocrinolgy.
Autumn
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hasikelee
Guest
Actually, texas, I am even more intrigued. After reviewing your posts on this thread, I see multiple references as if you are speaking based on a foundation of science and not theology.
Yet in your post to me you dismiss education and instead talk about the catechism.
You are dismissing yourself? Isn’t that a bad thing to do in a debate?
Yet in your post to me you dismiss education and instead talk about the catechism.
You are dismissing yourself? Isn’t that a bad thing to do in a debate?
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astegallrnc
Guest
Lets get back to our disagreements and address the misinforamation introduced in this thread.
You claim the pill regulates menstrual cycles.
This is incorrect. The pill regulates bleeding so that a woman has regular, predictable cyclic bleeding. Without ovulation, a woman is having anovualtory cycles not menstrual cycles.
For a couple using NFP, the pill will alter temps, cervical mucus, etc.
In response to “Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increases the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduces the likelihood of implantation)”, **you stated ”it states “other alterations include changes" see if the drug increases ear wax that is another alteration, but it does not change conception”, which is incorrect”.
Again, you are incorrect. The progestational effect on the endometrium is a mechanism of action (how a specific drug produces physiologic and biochemical changes at the cellular, tissue, and organ levels). It is well documented that the progestin produces a decidualized endometrial bed with exhausted and atrophied glands. Studies (granted these are not oral contraceptive studies) have shown that a thin endometrium decreases the rate of implantation. The PDR, medical texts, etc. are accurate based on the available information.
You state "how the proof where is the data that shows this to be a functioning "mechanism of action”.
You misunderstand mechanism of action (how a specific drug produces physiologic and biochemical changes at the cellular, tissue, and organ levels). You are asking for therapeutic effectiveness, and I have already responded that there is no direct evidence. I have also stated that IMO the pill is a potential abortifacient. We don’t know if or how often it acts as an abortifacient.
I appreciate your interest and agree with you that facts should be provided. I have made every effort to provide the most accurate information available and noted my opinions.
God bless,
Autumn
You claim the pill regulates menstrual cycles.
This is incorrect. The pill regulates bleeding so that a woman has regular, predictable cyclic bleeding. Without ovulation, a woman is having anovualtory cycles not menstrual cycles.
For a couple using NFP, the pill will alter temps, cervical mucus, etc.
In response to “Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increases the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduces the likelihood of implantation)”, **you stated ”it states “other alterations include changes" see if the drug increases ear wax that is another alteration, but it does not change conception”, which is incorrect”.
Again, you are incorrect. The progestational effect on the endometrium is a mechanism of action (how a specific drug produces physiologic and biochemical changes at the cellular, tissue, and organ levels). It is well documented that the progestin produces a decidualized endometrial bed with exhausted and atrophied glands. Studies (granted these are not oral contraceptive studies) have shown that a thin endometrium decreases the rate of implantation. The PDR, medical texts, etc. are accurate based on the available information.
You state "
You misunderstand mechanism of action (how a specific drug produces physiologic and biochemical changes at the cellular, tissue, and organ levels). You are asking for therapeutic effectiveness, and I have already responded that there is no direct evidence. I have also stated that IMO the pill is a potential abortifacient. We don’t know if or how often it acts as an abortifacient.
I appreciate your interest and agree with you that facts should be provided. I have made every effort to provide the most accurate information available and noted my opinions.
God bless,
Autumn
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rayne89
Guest
The pill surpresses ovulation (most of the time). The whole point of NFP is to detect when you have ovulated. If you don’t ovulate what is there to detect? NFP is totally useless if you are on the pill. In fact you have to be off the pill for several months before charting even becomes reliable.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
I’ll take this to mean you have no facts and need personal attacks to hide such. Question- How many languages would JPII have to speak to change the facts of conception?Excuse me, texas! Goodness, take a breather! I was responding openly here and am disappointed at the way you sidestepped an oppurtunity for open discourse.
If you are unwilling to at least talk about things without fallacious ad homs, then I guess we can’t discuss anything further. If you are really interested in facts and truth, why such a hurry to shut down discourse?
And for that sidestep you popped in, I do have to say, do you honestly believe the majority of Catholics are uneducated? Hello, how many languages can the average pope speak? I thought John Paul II knew 12 languages fluently? lol.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Absolutely wrong. The difference between a real doctor and a Quack is the real Doctor has data this “mechanism” works, and the Quack does not.
“you need a thorough understanding of human physiology” To do what??? To develop theories on drug treatment for humans and test such,- Oh wait that is the whole point you accept the theory as fact if you like the presenter or message! Without data it is theory not fact
Spin , spin , spin that is all this paragraph is. When data is not present it is referred to as a Theory. Their theory is present in many posts and widely accepted as Theory.** Theory** is not fact, theory is theory, and fact is fact. Maybe one day the Theory will be proven as fact - which requires data.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
no that was a doctor, it is written in the thread feel free to check it.
it is not incorrect, if the drug increase ear wax that is an alteration, for the love of pete how one attempt to say the changes created by a drug are not alterations.
Autumn
If cathlics were being told this*“I have already responded that there is no direct evidence. I have also stated that IMO the pill is a potential abortifacient. We don’t know if or how often it acts as an abortifacient”-Autumn* I would not even be posting in this thread.
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astegallrnc
Guest
No, you are absolutely incorrect! The progestational effect on the endometrium is a mechanism of action (how a specific drug produces physiologic and biochemical changes at the cellular, tissue, and organ levels). It is well documented that the progestin produces a decidualized endometrial bed with exhausted and atrophied glands. Studies (granted these are not oral contraceptive studies) have shown that a thin endometrium decreases the rate of implantation.
What data do you think is needed to describe a mechanism of action? Now, how effective that mechanism of action is would require data. That would be descrbing its therapeutic efffectiveness.
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astegallrnc
Guest
I prescribed oral contraceptives and KNOW what they do. They do no regulate menstrual cycles. I can read that statement understanding what is meant.
No, that would be a side effect. It would not be a mechanism of action. Again, you do not understand mechanism of action versus side effect.
This point I do agree with you to some extent. The pill is a potential abortifacient but I suppose we could say it is a potential contraceptive. I do find that there is a tendency to overexaggerate that potential.
I would not be posting if misinformation was not being presented i. e., your statement that the thinning of the endometrium is not a mechanism of action. The pill does not regulate menstrual cycles or augment the use of NFP. The thinning of the uterine lining is a mechanism of action.
Where is you data to support your statements? Do you have data showing that the progestin does not produce a decidualized endometrial bed with exhausted and atrophied glands? Do you have data that a thin endometrium does not decrease implantation rates? Do you have a consensus statement from a reputable medical organization that the pill does not thin the endometrium?
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annb
Guest
It is clear to me that some in this thread do not understand the difference between medical facts and a doctor’s knowledge of those facts, versus the doctor trying to give information in an easy to understand format which may or may not give direct information about the medical facts.
Let me make an example. A doctor says to a 4 year old whose mother is pregnant, “There is a baby growing in mommy’s stomach.”.
Is the doctor really saying that the baby is inside the mother’s stomach rather than uterus? NO, the doctor is trying to put the information he knows into language that will be easily understood.
This is similar to the doctor saying that BCPs will regulate a woman’s menstual cycle.You just can’t debate the facts using “The baby is in the stomach”–because it was never meant as a fact.
Another tip, is that when looking at information, you have to look at one’s motivation and knowledge. And while some in this thread may believe the information out there is debate between respected authority versus lay quacks, that clearly is not the case.
Aditionally, most doctors are not knowledgeable about NFP.
Let me make an example. A doctor says to a 4 year old whose mother is pregnant, “There is a baby growing in mommy’s stomach.”.
Is the doctor really saying that the baby is inside the mother’s stomach rather than uterus? NO, the doctor is trying to put the information he knows into language that will be easily understood.
This is similar to the doctor saying that BCPs will regulate a woman’s menstual cycle.You just can’t debate the facts using “The baby is in the stomach”–because it was never meant as a fact.
Another tip, is that when looking at information, you have to look at one’s motivation and knowledge. And while some in this thread may believe the information out there is debate between respected authority versus lay quacks, that clearly is not the case.
Aditionally, most doctors are not knowledgeable about NFP.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
All of this becomes more of a medical question than a moral one. Does irregular menstrual cycle constitute “bodily disease” that needs curative measures? Maybe. Does it have physiological effects, social effects, as a “disease”? Maybe. Only an MD can answer that.
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Gwythr
Guest
Technically, an irregular cycle would just be a part of who that person is, correct? The same as how someone can have a chemical unbalance in the brain. Medication is taken for the later, so why should the regulation of a bodily function be wrong when the regulation of another is right? Can someone please explain this to me…?
In the same way, NFP and contraception accomplish the same thing, yet one is “bad” the other is “good.” This simply does not make sense to me at all…
In the same way, NFP and contraception accomplish the same thing, yet one is “bad” the other is “good.” This simply does not make sense to me at all…
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LittleDeb
Guest
Welcome to the forums.
No one is saying not to fix an unbalanced cycle. In fact some of us sought out NFP because it offered a better way to fix the problem. What is being discussed is that the pill supresses ovulation. It does not regulate it. The pill creates an artificial cycle of withdrawl bleeding. The bleeding has a predictable pattern, but it is by no means a regulated cycle. One cannot chart for signs of fertility if the Pill is just getting rid of it.
By that logic, then bulimia and dieting are the same since they accomplish the same thing, weight management.In the same way, NFP and contraception accomplish the same thing, yet one is “bad” the other is “good.” This simply does not make sense to me at all…
If you are interested in discussing it further please start a new thread on it and I will be happy to participate. It will take this thread terribly off-topic if we discuss it here and might even get it shut down for straying so far off-topic.
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maryj
Guest
alrighty then, I’ve put on my body armor, and I am prepared for your responses. There are different kinds of Birth control pills. And using progesterone to regulate a cycle is what I am in the process of doing. We use STM form of NFP, I keep very detailed charts. I have been in an anovulatory cycle for about three months, that is one cycle not three. I have been bleeding for that same amount of time. My doctor supports our use of NFP and was very impressed with my knowledge of the repoductive cycle. I take progesterone the last 10 days of my cycle to increase the lining of the uterus, I then stop and have a shedding. This resets my cycle, and I am able to use NFP again as my cycles return to normal (28-31 days) I believe this is what the priest is calling licit use of the pill. I have never taken the pill for more than 5 of these ten days as it seems to kick in fairly quick for me. So no matter what your arguments are, I know that the use of progesterone as an augmentation to NFP works for my husband and I. I think that a lot of confusion is running amuck on this thread. And Br. Rich SFO, I think you hit the nail on the head when you asked “does an irregular cycle constitute bodily disease?”“does it have a physiological affect, a social affect?” For me it has both, and let me add psycological affect also!! One last thing to add, may I state that my husband is not catholic and is supportive of me and our use of NFP. Long periods of abstinence have become the norm for him, and I thank God for such an understanding patient man. so that means to me that if I can reset my cycles,( I know some of you don’t accept this but I am proof that it works) with the help of a hormone, which in turn helps us to continue with NFP, I am doing the right thing in the eyes of God, and helping to strengthen my marriage. End of testimony, you may begin casting stones now
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astegallrnc
Guest
All combination oral contraceptives, which contain estrogen and progestin, are formulated to suppress fertility.
This is different.
Progesterone (even progestin) and NFP are compatible if used properly. This is not possible with oral contraceptives.
With an anovulatory cycle, progestin or progesterone may be used to induce bleeding. This is important to protect against uterine cancer. A woman may also take progesterone in the luteal phase after ovulation has occurred. This is different than using OCs because OCs suppress ovulation, which masks the signs of fertility.
I would agree.
No stones from my direction. NPT (NaProTECHNOLOGY) teaches Cooperative Progesterone and Estrogen Replacement Therapy, but this is not the same as OC use.End of testimony, you may begin casting stones now
God bless!
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