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redrosetea
Guest
Just pray God is still in charge…The Irish monks saved Christianity once before…
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Havard
Guest
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redrosetea
Guest
Perhaps but you know the Irish and their blarney…yikes I am leaving before I get stoned:crutches:Don’t you mean civilization?
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MercyMia
Guest
Ireland needs our prayers.
The Church in Europe has been on the brink before, and God has supplied every generation!
The Church in Europe has been on the brink before, and God has supplied every generation!
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rep140
Guest
They may not need any in 20 years. I have traveled quite a bit in Europe and there appear to be few churchgoers under 50.
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Layman
Guest
Ireland is surprisingly progressive, in my opinion, going by my local area there and a funeral I went to in Dublin. I don’t think being a ‘presider’ at a New Mass is as attractive as saying the old one.
Plus, the modern world now holds many more diversions for a vigorous man than old Ireland.
Plus the increasing wealth of the people; if you’re well off and have excellent health care you’re much less likely to be forced to your knees in prayer.
Plus the scandals have rocked people’s faith.
New mass + promiscuity + wealth + scandal = why be a priest?
Plus, the modern world now holds many more diversions for a vigorous man than old Ireland.
Plus the increasing wealth of the people; if you’re well off and have excellent health care you’re much less likely to be forced to your knees in prayer.
Plus the scandals have rocked people’s faith.
New mass + promiscuity + wealth + scandal = why be a priest?
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livnlern
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The Catholic church is worldwide. Why wouldn’t priests be brought in from other countries? This wouldn’t solve the lack of churchgoers, but could keep the churches open for those who were willing to come.
I read an article a couple of months ago that said there were more people interested in religion now in Ireland because of the economic situation. Hard times can bring people back to their faith.
I read an article a couple of months ago that said there were more people interested in religion now in Ireland because of the economic situation. Hard times can bring people back to their faith.
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Layman
Guest
They could be missionaries! And that’s not wholly a joke, either, alas.
I think it’s up to a diocese to produce its own priests: no priest = no Mass = no Church.
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NPC
Guest
I think missionaries may be a possible short term solution - over the years the Catholic Church in Ireland has sent thousands of missionaries to other countries to spread the faith. Now the tables have turned somewhat - I think a missionary zeal might be what the tired Church in Ireland needs. I know that especially in the Archdiocese of Dublin there are a number of African and Asian priests who are ministering in various parishes while they undertake doctorate studies at the seminary, so it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that more could be brought in.
But as I say, this is only a short-term solution. If missionary priests are brought in, at some stage the Church in Ireland will have to stand on its own two feet again. Unfortunately, much of this crisis is of our own making. Granted the national seminary, St Patrick’s College, Maynooth, had the highest intake of new seminarians (36) since 1999, I cannot say that I heard very much more than usual from our various dioceses during the past Year for Vocations. The article mentions Killala diocese - the possibility of there only being eight priests in twenty years’ time. Not one seminarian who entered Maynooth College this year was from that diocese. In fact no seminarians are from the dioceses of Achonry, Clonfert, Derry, Dromore, Elphin, Ferns, Kerry or Limerick this year. That’s eight dioceses out of Ireland’s 26 dioceses which have failed to catch a single vocation to the priesthood this year.
Thankfully, there are two new seminarians from my own diocese - but even these numbers will not be able to counteract the rising age profile of the priests we have now. So, essentially, all I’m hearing from this article is what we’ve been hearing for the past decade: we are facing into a huge crisis in terms of the number of priests in active ministry. It’s the same doom and gloom month after month. The thing is, we’re all aware of the forecast, but I still cannot see our bishops actively promoting vocations - or vocations directors for that matter. Christ commanded us to pray for vocations, and we should do this, but priests are not going to fall from the sky as manna from Heaven! We will have to work at this.
The statistic that I always find so puzzling and mind-boggling is that of the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. That diocese has a Catholic population of about 95,000 people - which is rather similar to my own. Lincoln diocese has 40 seminarians - my diocese has (as far as I’m aware) 3. Now, I know Lincoln diocese is regarded as being a conservative one (that is, faithful to the teachings of the Church), but 40 seminarians! Amazing. I think we could learn a lot from Bishop Bruskewitz and the vocations director Rev. Robert Matya! I think holiness in every aspect of ministry and faithfulness to the teachings of the Church is the key to bearing fruit. We reap what we sow.
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livnlern
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I’m not saying there isn’t a crisis in Ireland, but priests from other countries could be more like supplements to the Irish priests. Here in the US we get priests from all over. Our pastor at my church in Texas is from England, we had a priest from Nigeria a couple of years ago, we also had a seminarian for a while from Columbia. About 5 years ago we even had a priest from Ireland! I don’t understand why you would consider a priest from another country strictly as a missionary. The Church is universal and our clergy can be universal. The diocese that I live in has one of the highest vocation rates in the US, but we still have priests that come from all over the world.
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NPC
Guest
No, I don’t “consider a priest from another country strictly as a missionary”. In one sense, I use the term rather loosely, given that the “mission” wouldn’t be the same as in countries where Catholicism is introduced - obviously it already exists in Ireland. I’m using it as a mirror to highlight that in the past Ireland has so many priests that it could send as many away to the missions as it would keep for itself. I’m not aware of any point in Irish history where we have needed to “import” priests, though there have been other "dry"periods in terms of vocations - even in St Patrick’s lifetime the Church in Ireland had grown very strong, and there were many holy people who helped to earn Ireland the title “Island of Saints and Scholars”. People are welcoming of foreign priests, but it is a concept that we are not used to.
However, while I say I use the term “missionary” loosely in one sense, in another sense I do believe that having priests from other countries serving here could help rejuvenate the Irish Church which is, undeniably, tired after nearly two decades of scandals in a number of areas. Irish society has undergone massive change in recent decades - and this change has been very rapid. This is a secular society like anywhere else, and people became excited by the new-found wealth & for many people the Church has faded into the background. It is no longer a society where young men and women are encouraged to open their heart to the call of God.
You’re right that the Church is universal, and in that sense there is nothing wrong with having priests from other countries if they wish to come to Ireland and minister. However, it just doesn’t sit right with me that our bishops seem happy to sit back and (seemingly) doing nothing to actively promote vocations from among their own flock.
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lemonbeam
Guest
It was reported on 2nd of November 2009 that Church attendance in Ireland has gone up significantly. Irish Institute Reports Resilience of Young Mass-Goers.
Read article here: zenit.org/article-27413?l=english
Read article here: zenit.org/article-27413?l=english
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livnlern
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I understand your frustration and feelings of sadness in not having enough vocations from your own country. Especially if you think that the bishops aren’t doing enough to promote this. I don’t know whether this is done across the US or just here in Texas, but every few weeks we have a family that takes home a small chalice and that family says special prayers each day to help bring about more vocations. Families take turns in doing this. At the end of mass the family of the week receives the chalice from our priest along with a blessing from him for the family. Then they return the chalice at the end of their turn. If you don’t do something like this in your parish, maybe you could suggest it to your pastor.
Prayer is probably your best solution since vocations come from the Lord.
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NPC
Guest
I don’t disagree with you regarding the importance of prayer. I know that during the Year for Vocations (I don’t know if this was a universal thing - but we had it in Ireland from June 2008 until May 31 this year) parishes were asked to devote time to prayer for vocations. So churches which have Eucharistic Adoration often have a particular time or even a full day during which people are requested to pray for vocations. In other churches where the Rosary is prayed daily, on a particular day each week the Rosary might be offered as a prayer for vocations.
Your idea about the chalice is somewhat familiar - I don’t know the exact story, but there is some old chalice which belonged to an Irish priest (can’t remember who, but probably from the 1800’s), it is very beautiful and priests all around the country can request to take possession of it for a short period of time. It is given on the condition that they will offer Masses for vocations using that chalice.
As I say, prayer is indeed important because ultimately the vocation does come from God. But the thing is that young people in Ireland are not encouraged to “tune in” to such a calling at the present time. I’m concerned about the work that vocations directors are doing - in Ireland 90% of the schools are under the patronage of the Catholic Church: I wonder how many vocations directors or superiors of religious communities have recently gone into a school to show that 1. priests, brothers and nuns are not just relics of the past - they do still exist! and 2. that it is a worthwhile way of life. Obviously choosing religious life is not the same as choosing any other career, but vocations directors should be out there actively encouraging people to at least consider that they may be called to such a way of life.
The newspapers are currently driving their agenda against the Church by raising the issue of compulsory celibacy for Latin Rite priests - this follows the announcement at the weekend that a priest in the diocese of Derry is to leave the priesthood because he has fallen in love with a certain woman. We can expect nothing but biased writing over the next few weeks. The papers aren’t going to be interviewing the many priests who cherish their vocation and the gift of celibacy. They are going to drive their erroneous opinion that ending the celibacy rule is going to send vocations soaring. Unfortunately there are priests who are going to drive that agenda - two well known priests, whom I’d better not name. But they are known for stirring things. One of them is somewhat of a celebrity. Now, they may have their opinions and the newspapers will feed off these opinions - but if, as it appears, these priests have nothing positive to say about the priesthood, how can we expect the youth to even consider the religious way of life. I think the bishops and the vocations directors need to inject a serious level of positivity into the mix.
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livnlern
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I completely sympathize with you on problems with the media. The American press generally has nothing good to say about people of faith. And even though most priests are really good people who sacrifice and do their best to live good lives, the press is all over the small percentage that cause the scandals. And they lend support to people and ideas that are hard to fathom. Our current government is an example of this.We have the most pro-abortion president in history. I think this is a form of punishment for our country, since he’s doing a lot of other things as well that undermine our welfare… I think that God is testing us all, particularly at this point in history.
As for young people, there are so many distractions to lead them away from the church. My own kids are constantly using cell phones to text message their friends. And when not doing this, are on their laptops instant messaging other friends. And in between, are talking on the cell phone or listening to their Ipods! How can anyone concentrate with all of this going on? And what can they possibly be talking about all the time?
My husband and I talk to our kids a lot about our faith and hopefully this helps them (along with the formal religious education they’ve had) to think about keeping their faith at the center of their lives. But it’s so hard in today’s world…
As for young people, there are so many distractions to lead them away from the church. My own kids are constantly using cell phones to text message their friends. And when not doing this, are on their laptops instant messaging other friends. And in between, are talking on the cell phone or listening to their Ipods! How can anyone concentrate with all of this going on? And what can they possibly be talking about all the time?
My husband and I talk to our kids a lot about our faith and hopefully this helps them (along with the formal religious education they’ve had) to think about keeping their faith at the center of their lives. But it’s so hard in today’s world…
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Layman
Guest
The fact that his congregation cheered him is disturbing. If true, things have really changed in old Ireland: independent.ie/national-news/church-cheers-as-priest-admits-that-hes-in-love-1945357.html
If you’re near any of the Masses here, please support them:
latinmassireland.org/
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If you’re near any of the Masses here, please support them:
latinmassireland.org/
.
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NPC
Guest
As far as I’m aware, the announcement was made just before the end of Mass. I’m quite sure it wasn’t part of the homily at least. Generally I dislike applause at Mass, but insofar as restrained applause is acceptable, I think it is best at the end. I’m not saying I approve of the congregation’s reaction, but I’m not surprised by it. I know that some people are dismayed that he would have made such an announcement during Mass, but in fairness to Fr McKenna, I think it was best to tell is flock “face to face” about what was happening. He could have just disappeared into the sunset, and arousing all sorts of suspicions.
I wish him well - obviously we can’t afford to be losing any priests, but he and the Church are better off I think because of his honesty in the situation. Well, the Church would have been better off if the media hadn’t immediately pounced on the topic of compulsory celibacy. The article in the Irish Independent, for which you provided a link, mentions Fr Brian d’Arcy who is one of the priests I refrained from naming in my previous post. Any time I hear that man talk, it’s about something negative. One programme he was giving out about the harsh regime which was operating in the Passionist monastery when he entered first. Then he goes on about an outdated celibacy rule. I mean, is there anything that he actually does like about the priesthood? Or why is he still a priest? How can vocations be fostered when only negative attitudes abound?
Also, Fr d’Arcy calls the compulsory celibacy rule “outdated” as I’ve said. For goodness sake - does that mean that young men fifty years ago, one hundred years ago, or one thousand years ago, didn’t feel that they’d like to get married but in the end chose God instead? Men went through the same battles then as they do now, albeit sometimes in better or worse circumstances. He says to remember that the first Pope was married - but conveniently neglects Christ’s own example where He promised great rewards for those who have given up brothers, sisters, father, mother, wife or property for His sake (Matt 19:29).
Finally, Layman, thanks for the link to the LMSI - I check their website frequently. Unfortunately I live in an area where there are only quarterly Masses - the last one was at the beginning of October I think, so there probably won’t be one this side of Christmas…
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Layman
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Well, I was shocked that they were cheering. In the old days he just wouldn’t have turned up any more and we’d have heard it on the grapevine, I think.
I think a lot of people are infected with the ‘Hollywood romance’ meme. ‘Follow your dream’ and all that blather.
I think a smart move for a young priest is to realise what ‘sacrifice’ means: You offer something in the expectation of getting something back. Then look at all the old devotions in a new light.
Nothing for nothing and something for something is my attitude
I sure as heck would have to discern very carefully whether I am being deceived or not before breaking my vows in a situation like that. You don’t want to **** off the residents of Heaven.
Yes, getting to a TLM is a problem in rural Ireland. I live mostly in London, so it’s not a problem, but would have to get a car, definitely, in Ireland, I think. Might even be worth a train journey to Dublin, occasionally, I think.
I think a lot of people are infected with the ‘Hollywood romance’ meme. ‘Follow your dream’ and all that blather.
I think a smart move for a young priest is to realise what ‘sacrifice’ means: You offer something in the expectation of getting something back. Then look at all the old devotions in a new light.
Nothing for nothing and something for something is my attitude
I sure as heck would have to discern very carefully whether I am being deceived or not before breaking my vows in a situation like that. You don’t want to **** off the residents of Heaven.
Yes, getting to a TLM is a problem in rural Ireland. I live mostly in London, so it’s not a problem, but would have to get a car, definitely, in Ireland, I think. Might even be worth a train journey to Dublin, occasionally, I think.
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NPC
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Certainly, people would have heard about it sooner or later. However, I think that in the current climate, where bishops ask their priests to step aside (even temporarily) from ministry the moment abuse allegations (for example) are made, it was better to be upfront with the people and quell any suspicions which may have arisen had he just disappeared.
By the way, I’m not in rural Ireland - unless by “rural” you mean outside the “Pale” (Dublin). I do live in a city, and it seems that the bishop has been less than enthusiastic about granting a more regular celebration of the EF, so the LMSI has to keep organising visiting priests to come from other parts of the country. At the last EF Mass in my area, I estimated that there were c.40 people there. It was in a very small church so it felt very well attended! However, if people knew that the Mass was going to be celebrated at a definite time each month or each week, I’m sure the numbers would increase. The thinking is, I feel, very illogical - i.e. “we’ll have 4 EF Masses per year, and if the numbers increase to a reasonable level we’ll make it more widely available”… of course the thing is that if it is widely available to start with, it is easier to build up awareness of it and achieve success. When I lived in Dublin last year, I went to the Mass of the Lord’s Supper on Holy Thursday, according to the 1962 Missal. It was lovely. However, as I am a church musician myself, it is not easy to take a Sunday to travel to Dublin for a High Mass, and the weekday Low Masses are at 8 A.M.! So, I guess people will just have to continue petitioning our bishop, and if there isn’t any success, an appeal will have to be made to the Ecclesia Dei Commission as per Summorum Pontificum.
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