Priest who admitted groping boy appointed to high-profile position in Newark Archdiocese

  • Thread starter Thread starter didymus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
No, that is your conjecture that there are many more stories about Catholics, I also note you put “Not a CAF Catholic” or something by your name. Perhaps you resent the fact that there are plenty of these stories that go around to all faiths and you are the one that has a bias. As I said, this is just an exercise of randomness, that on most any day, one can search out these stories and a lot more other organizations come up first.
“I think our church gets saddled with a lot of the blame”. “The rate in the church is relatively low”-your statements, not mine. These statements imply that the church is somehow getting more blame and has fewer abusers than others, right? Why would those statements be important to make if you didn’t feel that press about Incident by Catholics didn’t outweigh press about others?

My point is that it doesn’t matter how many incidents. ONE child abused is too many. Keeping score is irrelevant.

And my “religion” is a response to how I have been defined here by others.
 
“I think our church gets saddled with a lot of the blame”. “The rate in the church is relatively low”-your statements, not mine. These statements imply that the church is somehow getting more blame and has fewer abusers than others, right? Why would those statements be important to make if you didn’t feel that press about Incident by Catholics didn’t outweigh press about others?

My point is that it doesn’t matter how many incidents. ONE child abused is too many. Keeping score is irrelevant.

And my “religion” is a response to how I have been defined here by others.
I may have been addressing MGoForth’s comments. Not making a general defense to you.

ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=9149
 
My point is that it doesn’t matter how many incidents. ONE child abused is too many. Keeping score is irrelevant.
Agreed. If the Catholic Church is THE Church, and I belive it is, then we/it should be held to a much higher standard than any other church or organization. We can’t say, Oh - they have more abusers over there so we’re OK.

And we have to do our part, keeping our eyes open to protect children. When I got concerned about a deacon who wanted way too much hand holding with the kids (and they were complaining about it), I didn’t ***** foot around. I went to the priest and said, “Tell Deacon X to keep his hands off my children.” We never saw that deacon again. And that’s how it should be.
 
I have a feeling such appointments are not as uncommon as we might think.

My guess would be that the events in Los Angeles have resulted in the mainstream press going back and looking through news stories and press releases that would have been ignored otherwise.
Correct, The problem or a big problem has been the moving around and into new positions seeing sometimes a repeat of past errors.
 
Since you know how many more stories there are about Catholics and you know how few other perpetrators get press…would it not be you who is keeping score?

When you buy a red car, suddenly you see red cars everywhere.
And you say others are keeping score? :tsktsk:
 
Agreed. If the Catholic Church is THE Church, and I belive it is, then we/it should be held to a much higher standard than any other church or organization. We can’t say, Oh - they have more abusers over there so we’re OK.

And we have to do our part, keeping our eyes open to protect children. When I got concerned about a deacon who wanted way too much hand holding with the kids (and they were complaining about it), I didn’t ***** foot around. I went to the priest and said, “Tell Deacon X to keep his hands off my children.” We never saw that deacon again. And that’s how it should be.
Good for you! People need to listen to that little voice that tells us that something just isn’t right about the Coach, the teacher or the Priest. Abusers win when people think that “he could never do that! He’s married and has kids!” Or “he’s been coaching here for years, everyone respects him!” Or " he’s a Priest! That would be disrespectful!" These guys don’t wear signs. They deliberately try to blend in and work hard to become respected members of the community that everyone would believe to be above reproach. In the old days, the Priest was usually that person. My feeling is that we will see fewer cases of abuse in the Church because it will no longer be the “safe” place for abusers to hide as it once was.
 
The same type of people who might think that a guy who denied Christ three times might make a good Pope?
Please tell us that you’re not equating a confessed child molester with St. Peter.
 
Please tell us that you’re not equating a confessed child molester with St. Peter.
Actually, I am.

If Christ can take a sorrowful Peter and make him into a Pope, why not a confessed (and I would highly the word ‘confessed’, as in the Sacramental sense) and do much the same.

Part of Peter’s strength as Pope CAME from his denial of Christ and the repentance that followed. It removed his arrogance at the Last Supper and replaced it with humility.

St. Augustine, the womanizer, is another great example.

Part of the flaw in Seeker’s statement, to which I had replied, was that it can only be those lacking in major imperfections that can bring about Good in the Church.

Granted, the Church should exercise Prudence in his access to minor children (which it seems this role is much better suited for than that of parish priest). But what sins are unforgivable? It the same way the Christ forgave Peter for his denial and then promptly entrusted the care of the whole Church to.
 
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I’ve stated before that there is still a profound disconnect between some bishops and the laity on this issue, and this situation just serves to prove my point.
I totally agree but before this thread is over, someone will say that since we are just laity how dare we criticize a Prelate.
 
I have one last thing to say. In nearly any other job, an employee known to engage in such behavior would be terminated on morals and/or legal grounds immediately.
40.png
Seeker1961:
Exactly. The reason the Church can’t get past these issues is because they won’t deal properly with the offenders.
The question, of course, is, “what’s the ‘proper’ way to deal with clergy who have committed these offenses?”

(NB: I don’t know anything about this case. I don’t know whether it’s even proper, in this particular case, to discuss this in terms of this man’s culpability. Clearly, he was accused of an offense. It seems he wasn’t convicted. Do we castigate all who have been accused, without regard to whether they have been convicted? That seems unjust. Nevertheless, my comments here ask a different question: what do we do in the case of those who have been justly accused?)
40.png
epan:
If the behavior was with other employees
And if clergy were simply ‘employees’, your point would be well taken…
40.png
epan:
If a physician does such a thing with a patient, the expectation is revocation of his or her medical license, in addition to any other legal proceedings.
And if clergy were simply ‘civilly licensed professionals’, your point would be well taken…

And yet, both of the corrections you suggest, point to the same remedy: remove the person from the role that they perform.
Why is this not similar in the Catholic Church? I priest or minister is in a trusted position of confidence and authority. Every other profession which is similar in that sense has strict ethical guidelines.
This is the problem. ‘Teacher’, ‘police’, ‘physician’, ‘military officer’ all are jobs. So is ‘pastor’, by the way. Yet, ‘priest’ is not a job – neither is ‘Christian’. Both ‘priest’ and ‘Christian’ are states of life. If a lay minister acted in a way abusive of children, we’d (rightfully) scream, “get him out of that ministry, and away from children!” Yet, we wouldn’t scream, “excommunicate him and make him a not-Christian!”… and chances are, if someone said that, we’d look at him incredulously and say, “umm… what??? That doesn’t even make sense…!”
You will never hear on the news (I hope) that Colonel Smith (fictitious name), a known child molester, has been promoted and will be taking over a new prestigious command. More likely you will hear that the person in question has received a reduction in rank, disciplinary action, and a dishonorable discharge.
This is an apples-and-oranges comparison. Military officers are in an “up or out” profession – if they act in a way that makes them unpromotable, they’re out, even if they’re given a ‘demotion’ which makes their retirement something that happens later rather than now. Trust me – a priest who is convicted of crimes against children is ‘unpromotable’: he’ll never be given the opportunity to become a bishop. That is true now, and it’s been true far longer than this current crisis has been in play.
Fill in your profession.
This is where the ‘disconnect’ comes in. Priesthood is not a ‘profession’. It’s not a ‘job’ or a ‘position’ or a ‘career’. It’s a vocation, just like being a Christian is a vocation we receive at baptism. In living out our lives as Christians, within our parishes, if it’s found out that it’s not appropriate for us to carry out certain duties, we’ll be shunted away from those roles. Same thing with priests, in the context of the current scandal. Yet, these decisions do not turn us away from our sacramental identity.

As the baptized, we’re ‘Christians’. As ordained, they’re ‘priests’. In this case, it seems that the priest involved was placed in a position that keeps him away from minors: his new role has to do with educational programs for adults. Are we really suggesting that he’ll initiate programs that encourage priests to molest children? Puh-leeze! :rolleyes:

On the other hand, if what you’re suggesting is vengeance, rather than justice, and retaliation, rather than retribution, then I’d suggest you consider the question of splinters and beams, and what Christian vocations are all about… 😉
 
Respectfully, I believe it has everything to do with that. Why is everyone so quick to second-guess the Archbishop’s decision in this matter (which is between the priest and the Archbishop) if we’ve all truly forgiven him? The Archbishop is in charge of this, let him handle it and offer up your grief to God.

It’s better to assume the best about someone and be wrong, than to assume the worst and be right. I’m paraphrasing a saint, but I can’t remember who it is.
This is a decision that deserves to be “second guessed”. Given the anguish that this whole, sad, shameful scandal has caused - to the victims and to the faithful - it is incumbent upon our bishops to be sensitive to how appointments such as this will look to the faithful and to the world at large. There has been a “tone deafness” exhibited by certain members of the hierarchy that is mind-boggling.

When a bishop places someone with a history such as this priest’s in a position of authority - and with influence over the ongoing formation of other priests, yet - it is entirely reasonable to wonder “what the heck was he thinking?”

And, it is the prerogative of his* victim* to forgive him.
 
it is incumbent upon our bishops to be sensitive to how appointments such as this will look to the faithful and to the world at large. There has been a “tone deafness” exhibited by certain members of the hierarchy that is mind-boggling.
Certainly, sensitivity is a reasonable expectation. Yet, at what point do we decide that a decision is ‘tone deaf’ and displays a lack of sensitivity? Is this a ‘lowest-common-denominator’ consideration? Do we decide that sensitivity has been established when, finally, no one complains? That seems to place the locus of control firmly in the hands of the harshest and most vocal critics. Is this what we’re asking of the Church?
it is the prerogative of his* victim* to forgive him.
Perhaps. Yet, it seems that what’s being advocated here is that it’s the prerogative of every person in the world to judge him. That’s hardly Christian. :sad_yes:
 
Again, doing this makes me think that while doing bad reprehensible things can not be justified and is evil, perhaps press coverage can be overblown in regards to the Catholic faith.
This is a cogent point; you can be sure that many of those in the media will concentrate on stories that make the Church look bad. There is plenty of anti-Catholicism around these days.

It is my contention that the perpetrators of the molestation scandals - and those who tried to cover things up - have provided an excuse for those who hate the Church to have a field day. They see no reason to maintain even the appearance of religious tolerance, as they have been, in their minds, given free rein to spew anti-Catholic venom.
 
Respectfully, I believe it has everything to do with that. Why is everyone so quick to second-guess the Archbishop’s decision in this matter (which is between the priest and the Archbishop) if we’ve all truly forgiven him? The Archbishop is in charge of this, let him handle it and offer up your grief to God.

It’s better to assume the best about someone and be wrong, than to assume the worst and be right. I’m paraphrasing a saint, but I can’t remember who it is.
Because attitudes like that contribute the ongoing sex abuse scandal. There is Catholic teaching on scandal and righteous indignation. If people aren’t entitled to feel that in these circumstances then they can’t at anything.
 
This is not a surprise. It was well know that while he was bishop of Peoria, this bishop had no problem accepting candidates for the priesthood whose application had been rejected by other seminaries and also accepting guys who had been dismissed from seminaries. What do these guys just not get. There are many good bishops and priests out there who get backlash becuase of this type of incompetence.
 
That’s kind of a lame post, isn’t it? Why is it considered “prestigious?”
That’s what I was thinking, too. Canonist Ed Peters agrees. To me, this position seems less like a reward and more like a place to put him out of the way. As Peters points out, there are host of chancery positions that are far more “prestigious” and influential.

I think it’s the notion that Fugee would have any part in the “priestly formation” that is concerning everyone (not without very good reason of course). But it really doesn’t strike me as all that influential of a position.

Which, again, is not to say that there is no problem with it. I am open to the idea that he should not have any assignment at all. But if he were to have any assignment, this seems like about as out of the way as you can get.

Mark Shea also posted about this story. I think he brings up some good points.
 
That’s kind of a lame post, isn’t it? Why is it considered “prestigious?”
I think that a better description would be a cushy and undemanding job. I don’t have any problem with an ex-con turning around his life and working towards redemption. What I don’t really care for is providing a soft spot to land for every pedophile with a sob story. What we are doing with our money is providing a incentive for predators to enter the priesthood. A man who wants plenty of access to young boys and impressionable young homosexuals needn’t look any further than the seminary. And then, when he gets caught he just has to muster up a few tears, confess and he is provided employment, housing, and meals for the rest of his life. Is it a crime to want these priests to actually have to work for a living?
 
Posting this article excerpt I posted in the other thread:
The Catholic Church in France has less state protection – tacit or otherwise - than it does elsewhere, and this has long been demonstrated by the Church’s policy of coming down relatively hard on pedophilia within its ranks compared to the Church elsewhere.
The French Catholic hierarchy was the first in the world – in 1998 – to issue strict and publicized formal guidelines stating that it would not cover up for pedophiles. It followed up this declaration up with another – even more emphatic - declaration in 2002 which condemned pedophilia in the strongest terms and reiterated that offenders would be turned over to the police if they did not do so themselves when unmasked by the Church. The declaration also asked churchgoers, families, Catholic schools, associations and even the government to help it deal with pedophilia, and issued guidelines to help detect signs of abuse in children.
The article asserts France has much less of this kind of a problem. Sounds like at least, the rest of the world needs to look at this approach. If the French do it with success, perhaps others should too.

The article says France acted in 1998, that seems though in the overall picture rather recent still. One would have to study the total picture and timeline.

The Church has strict rules that followers must abide by so then, in this one area, should not be lax in it’s discipline.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top