Priestless parishes: a "Crisis" or an "Emerging Parish Leadership Paradigm"

[Corki]

I did not vote since neither choice really fit my own position.

I do not think priestless parishes is a crisis. I think it is a short-term problem and care needs to be taken to avoid a long-term solution that would be hard to live with. The recent situation of at least one priest for every parish is a fairly recent one at that. For most of the Church’s history, outside of the truly big cities, priests were much more spread out.

Most people who talk about “emerging parish paradigm” use that as code for lay leadership of parishes with the priest taking a secondary role. CAF is full of stories of parishes with a lay administrator dictating to the priests how to say Mass and catechize. While a pastor is monitored by his superiors - either the Bishop or the chancellor - lay administrators seem to answer to no one.

I also don’t think many people realize how the explosion of lay ministry has affected the priests’ workload. In evey parish I have attened, this has caused a huge increase in the pastor’s responsibilities. He has to monitor each lay group, he has to oversee the training of readers, EMHCs, catechists, etc.

My personal idea is that it isn’t the parish leadership paradigm that needs shifting. It is the concept of the parishes as neighborhood entities. This was great in the 19th century (speaking US history here). I know that no one likes to see parishes close but do we really need four or five different parishes within a 10 minute drive of each other? I live in a fairly rural area and have five parishes within a 20 minute drive from me. Two are medium size and the other three are tiny. None of the three, BTW, serves a particular language or ethnic group that would be hard to serve by another parish. The number of priests per parish of these five is 3, 1,1,1, .5 respectively. Couldn’t a large parish be formed with these 6 priests ( and the four deacons that are at two of these parishes) and better serve the faithful?

I also think some ministries need to go under the leadership of the diocese rather than the pastor. I have read here on CAF of diocese that offer trainng for EMHCs, for example. I think the quality and efficiency of the training would be better than what we get with each pastor having to oversee his own group’s training. In other words free up the priests from more of the administrative buracracy but by passing these duties “up” the chain of command not by installing lay adminstrators who answer to no one.

 

[Joannm]

I
I also don’t think many people realize how the explosion of lay ministry has affected the priests’ workload. In evey parish I have attened, this has caused a huge increase in the pastor’s responsibilities. He has to monitor each lay group, he has to oversee the training of readers, EMHCs, catechists, etc.

Not here in our diocese. lay leadership has freed up the priests so that they can concentrate more on sacraments and such. As a ly minister I oversee a lot of the training and monitor many ministries, as do the other department heads in our pairsh. The pastor only becomes personally involved if there are major problems that we cannot handle.

I also think some ministries need to go under the leadership of the diocese rather than the pastor. I have read here on CAF of diocese that offer trainng for EMHCs, for example. I think the quality and efficiency of the training would be better than what we get with each pastor having to oversee his own group’s training. In other words free up the priests from more of the administrative buracracy but by passing these duties “up” the chain of command not by installing lay adminstrators who answer to no one.

Who says lay mnisters answer to no one? If that is true, then it is the pastor’s fault, not the lay minister. I have to answer to the pastor directly with regard to all the ministries I am moderating, as do the other parish lay ministers (DRE. Parish Social Ministry, Youth Minister). None of us tell the pastor what to do. Any authority we have is given to us from him and the parishioners know that. If we say someting has to be done it is because we have the pastors approval or he wants it done. Our diocese also offers training for different ministries. I happen to be involved in that as well as an instructor, and I know that we have to answer to the bishop with regard to that.

 

[Corki]

Not here in our diocese. lay leadership has freed up the priests so that they can concentrate more on sacraments and such. As a ly minister I oversee a lot of the training and monitor many ministries, as do the other department heads in our pairsh. The pastor only becomes personally involved if there are major problems that we cannot handle.

Well that kind of proves my point. In most parishes, there is not the luxury of “department heads”. Each group is overseen by the pastor or sometimes the DRE. These are the kind of economies of scale I was suggesting by having larger parishes. My own parish is small. Besides all the liturgy and sacraments, our pastor has to make sure the Knights aren’t getting drunk at meetings, chase pumas off the rectory yard, drive an hour each way several times a week to attend all the diocisan meetings, teach RCIA candidates, train the altar servers, the readers and the EMHCs, etc. And for some reason, our diocese sends the deacons to parishes that already have more than one priest.

Who says lay mnisters answer to no one? If that is true, then it is the pastor’s fault, not the lay minister. I have to answer to the pastor directly with regard to all the ministries I am moderating, as do the other parish lay ministers (DRE. Parish Social Ministry, Youth Minister). None of us tell the pastor what to do. Any authority we have is given to us from him and the parishioners know that. If we say someting has to be done it is because we have the pastors approval or he wants it done. Our diocese also offers training for different ministries. I happen to be involved in that as well as an instructor, and I know that we have to answer to the bishop with regard to that.

I didn’t say the lay ministers didn’t answer to anyone. I said that in priestless parishes, where there is a lay ADMINISTRATOR, he/she does not answer to the Bishop in the same way a pastor (or any priest in the diocese) does. No one tells (or should tell) the PASTOR what to do. But if you look around these forums, you will see that there are many PAs that sure like to tell the priests who come to say Mass what to do.

Our diocese, one of the largest in the country has training for catechists but it is offered rarely on our side of the diocese. They have started training instituted acolytes and head of social service ministries (Gabirel project phone support for example). Pretty much everything else is left to the parishes.

I am happy for you that you have these things but you shouldn’t assume that because you enjoy that that we all have these resources available.

 

[eucharisteo]

Here’s a couple of examples of how the laity are trying to shanghi the authority of the clergy.

At the end of EMHC training a lady insisted…very strongly…that she be allowed to bless he of us on the forehead. That bothers me.

At another parish with no priest, has someone showing tapes that claim that prior to the Council of Trent confession did not exist or was extremely rare if ever done.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

At another parish with no priest, has someone showing tapes that claim that prior to the Council of Trent confession did not exist or was extremely rare if ever done.

Did that tape also show that the penances took years to fulfill and were a one shot only deal - two strikes and you’re out.?

 

[Brigadoon]

As a member of a priestless parish-- I voted CRISIS.

 

[Aramis]

Here’s a couple of examples of how the laity are trying to shanghi the authority of the clergy.

At the end of EMHC training a lady insisted…very strongly…that she be allowed to bless he of us on the forehead. That bothers me.

At another parish with no priest, has someone showing tapes that claim that prior to the Council of Trent confession did not exist or was extremely rare if ever done.

Prior to Trent… well, true… but WAY prior to Trent.

Like circa 2nd and 3rd centuries.

Now, there are records of multi-year penances up to just before Trent. For vary major and public sins.

 

[po18guy]

Until the shortage of priests hurts, young men will not step up and give their lives over to Christ. The princedom we live in has too many distractions and temptations. The resolution, practically speaking, is at least several years, possibly a decade or two away. My parish priest is from the Philippines and the adjoining parish priest is from the Congo. If not for Asia and Africa, it would be much worse than it is.

“Emerging whatever” sounds like PR damage control.

 

[ethelzguy]

The influx of priests from third-world countries is not surprising, and actually underscores the problem here in the US.

In third world countries, the priesthood in the US can be rather enticing. A higher standard of living than they’re used to, or would likely achieve if they stayed where they are. A nice standard of living and the opportunity to serve God with their lives.

Or, “having it all” from their perspective.

Unfortunately, here in the US, the priesthood likely represents a glass ceiling, so to say, with regard to lifestyle…as compared to the secular/materialistic lifestyle the US has to offer.

Thus, the problem.

 

[po18guy]

The influx of priests from third-world countries is not surprising, and actually underscores the problem here in the US.

In third world countries, the priesthood in the US can be rather enticing. A higher standard of living than they’re used to, or would likely achieve if they stayed where they are. A nice standard of living and the opportunity to serve God with their lives.

Or, “having it all” from their perspective.

Unfortunately, here in the US, the priesthood likely represents a glass ceiling, so to say, with regard to lifestyle…as compared to the secular/materialistic lifestyle the US has to offer.

Thus, the problem.

If those young men could envision the eternity in God’s presence that awaits just atop the glass ceiling, we would have a surplus!

 

[KathleenElsie]

When did it get that those that wanted to serve God had to have 10+ years of post graduate studies to qualify? Does this mean that only elitist with the ability to understand the* liberalized* educational world are qualified to serve God?

Read the stories of the saints. Many of them had little or no formal education. I am not saying we need to ordain illiterate uneducated people. I am saying that the elimination of 99% of the faithful men because of the cost of education is no a good thing for the Catholic Church or the priesthood.

 

[THurifer2]

Shifting paradigm?

Wow. I they surely don’t see this paradigm shift in Lincoln.

Overflowing churches and seminaries with the Crisis of not having enough space to house the HORDES of seminarians.

Everyone needs to emulate whatever it is that is going on in that diocese.

 

[ethelzguy]

Shifting paradigm?

Wow. I they surely don’t see this paradigm shift in Lincoln.

Overflowing churches and seminaries with the Crisis of not having enough space to house the HORDES of seminarians.

Everyone needs to emulate whatever it is that is going on in that diocese.

I have read similar commentary in other threads.

Thus I must ask, If the seminaries are so full of seminarians, then the “crisis” must be nearly over, no?

 

[ethelzguy]

If those young men could envision the eternity in God’s presence that awaits just atop the glass ceiling, we would have a surplus!

Agreed. But how do we get our young men to see this when they live in a society where they are taught to drool over the Jessica Simpsons of the world?

 

[Phemie]

I have read similar commentary in other threads.

Thus I must ask, If the seminaries are so full of seminarians, then the “crisis” must be nearly over, no?

Only in very orthodox dioceses like Lincoln.

Other dioceses,like mine have no seminarians and we are facing a priestless parish when the recently appointed pastor leaves in 3 years. His mission: to prepare us to be priestless, capable of doing our own marriage preparation (the priests have done it by themselves for the last 9 years), baptismal preparation & all aspects of catechesis. Not sure if they’re even facing the possibility of sending in an administrator or doing like they’ve done for other parishes in our diocese: making a priest responsible for two or three parishes and having him fly in to spend a few weeks in parish A and a few weeks in parish B.

 

[RobbyS]

Please forgive me if this comment sounds foolish, and keep in mind that I am a fairly new Catholic.

To me, “Emerging Parish Leadership Paradigm” sounds like a way of saying, “allowing those who are not priests, including women, to do things that only priests have the authority to do.”

Am I kind of in the ball park here? Or am I way out in the parking lot?

I have never been part of such a parish, but I think you are right on. A priestless parish is better than no parish at all, provided that the people try to form a true community. Thge goal, however should be a resident priest.

 

[THurifer2]

I have read similar commentary in other threads.

Thus I must ask, If the seminaries are so full of seminarians, then the “crisis” must be nearly over, no?

In places like Lincoln the only Crisis that ever existed was the crisis of making seminarians sleep in the hallways of dorms because of too little space…of course Lincoln is the only diocese that I have been to that has had confession lines as long as disney ride lines.

 

[Lepanto]

I have never been part of such a parish, but I think you are right on. A priestless parish is better than no parish at all, provided that the people try to form a true community. Thge goal, however should be a resident priest.

A parish without at least a part-time priest is not a Catholic parish. It is a Catholic social fellowship.

 

[Lepanto]

The influx of priests from third-world countries is not surprising, and actually underscores the problem here in the US.

In third world countries, the priesthood in the US can be rather enticing. A higher standard of living than they’re used to, or would likely achieve if they stayed where they are. A nice standard of living and the opportunity to serve God with their lives.

Or, “having it all” from their perspective.

Why the unwarranted cynicism?

These brave men are sacrificing family and everything they know to come to a country that can’t even foster enough vocations for itself. How many of them will not be able to be home when their parents are dying? In effect, these men are missionaries coming to many dioceses which have reverted to mission territories. (One of the differences between a “Mission Territory” instead of Diocese is that a Mission Territory is a region that is dependent on outside priests.)

These men are serving in many dioceses with undercurrents of hostility to vocations and the priesthood in particular. Many of them will be treated as second-class citizens because they are Africans or Asians who speak with accents serving in very demanding lily-white suburban megaparishes–places that have 100 “eucharistic ministers” and bizzaro liturgies yet have never sent a man to seminary.

Back home, these priests may not have as many material possessions, but they would have all the comforts of home and they would be put on a pedestal since they come from societies which actually revere the priesthood.

These men are not just missionaries, but in some ways they are martyrs as well.

 

[JReducation]

When did it get that those that wanted to serve God had to have 10+ years of post graduate studies to qualify? Does this mean that only elitist with the ability to understand the* liberalized* educational world are qualified to serve God?

Read the stories of the saints. Many of them had little or no formal education. I am not saying we need to ordain illiterate uneducated people. I am saying that the elimination of 99% of the faithful men because of the cost of education is no a good thing for the Catholic Church or the priesthood.

This was made law by St. Pius X. To be a secular priest you must have completed a Bachelor of Arts degree in Philosophy or Liberal Arts, a four-year Master’s Degree in Theology or Divinity, and a one-year deaconate internship. That’s a total of nine-years of formal education. To be a bishop you must have a Doctoral Degree from an accredited university or an ecclesiastical university.

If you are a religious you must comply with the 9 years of academic education that the Universal Church requires. But before you do that, you must first complete the required number of years that it takes to be a religious. These are:

6 months of candidacy
24 months of postulancy
12-24 months of novitiate
3-6 years of temporary vows
Final vows if you belong to a congregation or solemn vows if you belong to a religious order.

Only after you have made final or solemn vows can you petition your religious community for permission to be a deacon. To be ordained a deacon you must have fulfilled the above academic requirements of the universal church. If you have not, then you begin your studies after making final vows or pick up where you may have left off. Once you finish those degree programs, you may be ordained a deacon if you meet two cirteria:

1. The religious house in which you live must unanimously vote in favour and
2. The Major Superior and the Council must unanimously vote in favour.

Then you have a one year internship as a deacon.

You must ask permission of your religious order to be ordained a priest. It is again taken through the same voting process as before.

The religious superior has the final word on whether or not you are ordained. Even if the house and the order’s council approve your ordination and the bishop agrees to ordain you, no bishop may ordain you unless the superior signs the order of obedience. It makes no difference whether your major superior is a priest or a lay brother. He is the canonical authority and speaks for the Church. He decides who has been called to Holy Orders by Christ. His voice is the voice of Christ in the community.

If the major superior denies you permission to be ordained, you may never ask again. You must remain a member of the religious order until death or until you get an indult of secularization from the Holy See.

Pope Benedict has added additional years of study in Reason, Science and Languages. It’s about another 18 months, which are not part of the degree program.

In addition, those who are members of religious orders must spend those years of religious formation studying the theology of their order, before they can study the theology of the Church. The theology of the Order takes precedence.

As to the past, such was not always the case. The Dominicans and the Franciscans introduced the academic formation of priests and brothers in the 13th century. Diocesan priests were not required to have theological degrees, but Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, Jesuits and Augustinians have had them from the beginning of their orders.

Franciscans were the last ones to require them and by the time St. Francis died, he had authorized St. Anthony of Padua to make it a requirement for all friars,priests or lay brothers. The number of years was increased by St. Pius X and now by Pope Benedict XVI, but the academic requirement was always there for members of religious orders.

St. Pius X and Benedict XVI have mandated the same studies for secular priests, EXCLUDING the study of the spiritual life. That is only required for member of religious orders. Secular priests are not required to study Mystical Theology, just as religious are not required to study Latin.

The religious needs Mystical Theology if he is to be a good religious. The secular priest needs the Latin if he wants to be a bishop later on or if he wants to celebrate mass in the Extraordinary Form.

These rules regarding academic degrees are only for Catholic priests in the West, not for Eastern Catholics. They have their own formation requirements. In addition to the degrees individuals must prove academic mastery by writing a thesis, defending it, taking comprehensive examinations in Liberal Arts and Theology or Divinity and maintain a high grade point average at the university.

The Bishop and the Religioius Superiors always reserve the right to dispense with some of these requirements, but there is a limit to how much they can dispense with.

New priests are going to have to come from the secular sphere and they have to be very well educated. Pope Benedict said it best when he said that faith needs reason. Therefore, theology and scientific knowledge are essential to the Church’s mission. He has raised the bar even higher than Pius X.

Fraternally,

JR