Priestly celibacy is a doctrine

[De_Maria]

You’re engaging in the fallacy of equivocation to refuse to see a point.

On the contrary, the point is very simple.

Celibacy is not a teaching…

Then how did you learn about celibacy and what it meant? Were you born with innate knowledge of the subject matter?

Even if you were, you purport to teach me about chastity. Therefore you know that some people need to be taught on these subjects because they aren’t born with this knowledge. Nor do some of them get it through their head after many years. I’m one of them. Therefore, someone needs to teach me about celibacy. And that makes it a doctrine.

 

[Catholicwife32]

1. the Church doesn’t use the English dictionary. It uses the Latin and Italian dictionaries.

That’s irrelevant. Dictionaries only report how words are usually used, but their meaning is dependent on context. Both science and philosophy have to define their words within a paper or study they’re conducting in order to add clarity and avoid the problem of equivocation.

1. Priestly celibacy is NOT a teaching. If it was a teaching, then ALL Catholic Priests would have to be celibate. Since, there ARE married Catholic Priests, it cannot be a “teaching” of the Church. It is a discipline.

Exactly why are you arguing my own point to me? You seem very confused.

 

[phil19034]

Exactly why are you arguing my own point to me? You seem very confused.

Because I wasn’t responding to your post. I was responding to @De_Maria’s post.

 

[po18guy]

It is a discipline, to which seminarians readily and freely consent.

Problem?

Ever ask a priest about the gift of celibacy?

 

[De_Maria]

And the Church as defined what she means by the terms: discipline, doctrine and dogma.

And she defined those things in English. Let me put it another way. Look at the OFFICIAL Catholic documents. None of them say anything about discipline not being a doctrine. It is unofficial Catholic websites which use this imprecise language.

In other words, the Catechism calls priestly celibacy a discipline. But does not say it is not a doctrine.

 

[Catholicwife32]

Then how did you learn about celibacy and what it meant?

You’re so lazy you won’t even click a link? Seriously?

What is the logical fallacy of equivocation?

Description: Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading.

Example:

I want to have myself a merry little Christmas, but I refuse to do as the song suggests and make the yuletide gay. I don’t think sexual preference should have anything to do with enjoying the holiday.

Explanation: The word, “gay” is meant to be in light spirits, joyful, and merry, not in the homosexual sense.

 

[De_Maria]

Both science and philosophy have to define their words within a paper or study they’re conducting in order to add clarity and avoid the problem of equivocation.

Lol! Yeah. Within a paper or study. But you can’t show me an official science dictionary. Or an official philosophy dictionary. Nor can you show me the OFFICIAL Catholic Doctrine which says that a discipline is not a doctrine.

Or, maybe you can. I want to see the officially defined Catholic Dogma that says that a discipline is not a doctrine.

If you can’t produce that, then you are subject to the same constraints of any English speaking person who wants to be understood. You have to speak English.

The fact is that all English speakers rely upon the most trusted dictionaries in order to ensure that their words make sense and their messages convey meaning.

 

[De_Maria]

And the Church as defined what she means by the terms: discipline, doctrine and dogma.

Where does the Church officially define that a discipline is not a doctrine?

 

[De_Maria]

Description: Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading.

That’s the point, isn’t it. Those people who claim that at discipline is not a doctrine are making the term senselessly and needlessly ambiguous! That is the entire cause of the misunderstanding.

Priestly celibacy is a doctrine in the sense that we have to learn about it and it has to be explained. There are, after all, some Catholic Priests who are not commanded to be celibate.

It is not a Doctrine in the sense that it is not a Teaching commanded by Jesus Christ in the Deposit of Faith.

 

[TheLittleLady]

the Western Rite married priests from other denominations are allowed to continue their ministry if they convert to Catholicism.

It is vary rare, is done on a case by case basis - not a blanket for every convert clergy from every denomination.

 

[Catholicwife32]

Lol! Yeah. Within a paper or study. But you can’t show me an official science dictionary. Or an official philosophy dictionary. Nor can you show me the OFFICIAL Catholic Doctrine which says that a discipline is not a doctrine.

You’re misusing these terms by insisting on ambiguous definitions of these terms.

A dogma is a truth revealed by God, and as such is proposed by the Magisterium of the Church as necessary for belief. There are fewer dogmas of the Church than there are doctrines.

Doctrine is a wider term that refers to the compilation of all the teaches of the Catholic Church. That includes those teachings which are necessary as well as those which are not essential to the complete integrity of the Faith.

If you want to see the full list of varying authority of Church’s teachings, go here. Granted, I already referred to this, and if you continue down this path, I’m going to have to conclude you’re an internet troll.

A discipline is any rule, regulation, law and direction set down by the authority of the Church for guiding the faithful toward the perfection of the Gospel in their own lives and the life of the Church as a whole.

There is no Catholic source that DOESN’T use the terms in this way and by insisting that because doctrine means teaching, anything that the Church informs someone of is a doctrine is the fallacy of equivocation.

Here is Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic dictionary. Feel free to look up doctrine.
https://www.osv.com/MyFaith/EverydayCatholic/CatholicDictionary.aspx

And if you’re still going to continue on this path then
here The Three Ds
And here
What Catholics Must Believe - Dogma, Doctrine or Discipline? - Simple Catholic Truth

 

[De_Maria]

Here is Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic dictionary.

See above:

Priestly celibacy is a doctrine Apologetics

You’re misusing these terms by insisting on ambiguous definitions of these terms. A dogma is a truth revealed by God, and as such is proposed by the Magisterium of the Church as necessary for belief. There are fewer dogmas of the Church than there are doctrines. Doctrine is a wider term that refers to the compilation of all the teaches of the Catholic Church. That includes those teachings which are necessary as well as those which are not essential to the complete integrity of the Faith. If …

 

[phil19034]

Catholicwife32:

Description: Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading.

That’s the point, isn’t it. Those people who claim that at discipline is not a doctrine are making the term senselessly and needlessly ambiguous! That is the entire cause of the misunderstanding.

Priestly celibacy is a doctrine in the sense that we have to learn about it and it has to be explained. There are, after all, some Catholic Priests who are not commanded to be celibate.

It is not a Doctrine in the sense that it is not a Teaching commanded by Jesus Christ in the Deposit of Faith.

Again no. Discipline are the rules, suggestions, guidelines, Canon Law, etc that help us execute & live Doctrine and Dogma.

If you insist on saying priestly celibacy is doctrine, then you need to revise your statement because people will misunderstand you.

Discipline: under normal circumstances, only celebrate men may be admitted to the priesthood in the Latin Church

Doctrine: A vocation to the consecrated celibrate life is a higher calling than the vocation to the married life.
Doctrine: The celibate person can better focus on Spiritual needs over the married person because the married person must also be concerned with the needs of this world.

 

[De_Maria]

Discipline: under normal circumstances, only celebrate men may be admitted to the priesthood in the Latin Church

Correction, Disciplinary teaching. Disciplinary doctrine.

 

[De_Maria]

Does doctrine mean “teaching”? Yes or no?

Merriam Webster says, yes.

Definition of doctrine

1 archaic : teaching, instruction
2 a : something that is taught

The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching
NOV 10, 2007 BROTHER ANDRÉ MARIE
Brother Andre MarieShort, edifying, and uplifting report from a Convert from Islam: Rorate Mass in Smyrna, Anatolia https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/12/12th-anniversary-you-report-from.html https://t.co/N1m866a4ei9 hours ago 2 3
Brother Andre MarieA good read: “De Mattei: A Response to Edward Peters on the Buenos Aires Letter & Authentic Magisterium” http://sumo.ly/6nx via @onepeterfive https://t.co/lmjXAX9fn611 hours ago 4 5… A fourth category, ordinary prudential teaching on disciplinary matters, is commonly accepted by theologians and can be inferred from the text of Cardinal Ratzinger’s Donum Veritatis.[2]…

IV. The fourth category of Magisterial teaching, “ordinary prudential teaching on disciplinary matters,” is not mentioned in any document we have consulted except DV, 24-31,[42] where its contents are called “interventions in the prudential order.”

This category would include any of the routine publications of the various organs of the Holy See or the bishops in their dioceses. The key element in this category seems to be its contingency upon circumstances of time and place. Gaillardetz includes the CDF’s condemnations of Liberation Theology in this category. He highlights the essentially prudential nature of the category and calls it “doctrinal only in an analogous sense.”[43]

An external assent, or obedience, is due to the teachings of this category.…
http://catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching.html

 

[phil19034]

yes it does.

but discipline doesn’t mean teaching

 

[De_Maria]

yes it does.

but discipline doesn’t mean teaching

But discipline needs to be taught. Thus, it is a teaching on discipline. A doctrine on discipline.

 

[Catholicwife32]

See above:

I still stand by my original criticism that you’re understanding of the purpose of a dictionary is very flawed. Now you’re just embracing a false dichotomy.

 

[Catholicwife32]

Does doctrine mean “teaching”? Yes or no?

Merriam Webster says, yes.

Definition of doctrine

1 archaic : teaching, instruction

2 a : something that is taught

I just GAVE YOU a Catholic dictionary which you then threw in my face because I pointed out your understanding of the purpose of a dictionary is flawed. Now you’re going back to the fallacy of equivocation to continue restating your original point through this fallacious argument.

 

[Mintaka]

The doctrine is, “Jesus says that it’s okay for men to choose to remain unmarried and celibate, for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven, and Jesus also says (by going to Cana and helping out at the wedding) that marriage is okay.” The doctrine is also, “The Church says it’s okay for women to remain unmarried and celibate also, or to remain widows, just as it’s okay for guys to remain widowers.” (See various places in Paul, and also the whole set of arguments in the Fathers against Gnostics, et al.)

Today, we can see a tiny bit of the conflict the Church got into, by saying that both marriage and virginity/widowhood were okay. People are outraged by the idea that marriage or virginity or widowhood could possibly be permanent. (Or even that virginity should last until marriage.) But it was an even bigger fight back then.

There’s also the doctrine that “A monastic person should live a celibate life.” That’s another Church doctrine. There have been married persons living in mutual celibacy as monks and nuns, but there have never been any “still having sex married monks” approved by any orthodox branch of Christianity.

Similarly, I don’t think there has ever been an orthodox branch of Christianity that demanded that all priests start and continue the priestly life as virgins, and that a lack of virginity would be an automatic out.

Discipline and doctrine are just not the same thing.

Whether or not a priest remains celibate, is a reflection of how closely his life is supposed to approximate that of a monk, and how much continence from sex is supposed to take place before he can legally say Mass. All these are matters of discipline by his bishop (and how the Pope disciplines his bishop).

Preserving a difference between discipline and doctrine – that’s the Church’s doctrine.

And it’s a very wise one, because we’ve all seen how Sharia law makes almost every procedural or criminal issue a matter of doctrine or dogma, and how people can literally get killed for disagreements in interpretation.