Priestly Celibacy - What about the Money?

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uncleauberon

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Is there a vaild Institutional and monetary reason to maintain Priestly celbacy.

A:
I have known a priest that was once part of an “Order” that order was losing money as it paid for the retirement of older priests and not getting new ones. They are going defunct. Who’s going to pay ?

He left that order and moved under a diocese bishop to help his order save money.

B:
What about your local diocese paying for health insurance, life insurance and other expenses of a priest’s wife and their children.
How many children should the diocese support ?
How should the diocese figure the priest’s stipend ?
How much slack does the Parish take up ?
Can his wife be a house wife ?
Does she have to work ?
Pay for kid’s college ?

C:
Priests don’t get salaries in the same way that Protestant preachers do.
With families to take care of they may seek to find other jobs to supplement a salary.
Or should they negotiate a salary with their Bishop and/or local ordinary, or should they bring their financial situation to the parish ?

I don’t know much about this topic from a practical level.
It seems to me that Priestly celibacy helps the church stay as “simple” as possible.
Adding families in the mix will create more financial troubles.

Possibly create jealousy and envy between priests that have different family situations.

Any other ideas ? Comments ?
 
I agree that celebacy does keep things simple. Priests don’t make a lot of money, and I don’t see why the laity would suddenly uniformly up their donations if there were more married priests, or if they were the norm.

Priests move around, what, at least once every 10-12 years. Add a wife, children and all their clothes, toys, keepsakes and moving is a much bigger deal, more expensive and more difficult.

Good points about insurance. Obviously no one in the church could/would ever force a limit of children on the family, but the extra coverage could be a problem. And if the mother did work, would the priest have to decline running to the hospital to do a sacrement of the sick because he was baby-sitting?

Interesting thoughts…

John
 
Yikes,

What about a priest that dies ?
Does the Diocese/Order support his family? For how long ?

What about divorce and/or annulment ?
Sure the Church recognizes an Annulment
  • but the Government will still insist on Alimony and child support.
Not every priest is a Diocese Priest.
Each Priestly order has it’s own financial situation, too.
They thrive on donations.
If the donations are low then the priests accept a meager life.

In the world a family man can go serach for a better job in another place.
A priest must obey his bishop.
We may find married priests entering the vocations in wealthy areas and then leaving poor areas.

Think about these implications for a while ???
 
it seems that protestant churches can fully support a pastor, his wife, and their children (and i have known many who have lots of kids i.e.5 or more). if they can do it (and sometimes the churches are tiny) why can’t a parish do it? because (and this is not to stereotype but to relay my experience) catholics don’t give as much money as protestants. most catholics (again, that i know) don’t tithe (i know it’s no longer commanded but it is also the only thing in the bible that God tells us to “test” Him on. He says if we do it He will open the floodgates of heaven). in fact, what i normally see and hear about is that each child gets to put a dollar in the collection plate and that is the family’s offering (no wonder the church wants us to have lots of kids 😃 just kidding). i believe that if believers trusted God with the money He’s given them, the church would have so much money it wouldn’t know what to do with it all (although i’m sure it could figure it out just fine). imagine no more struggling parishes, imagine more missionaries being sent out, imagine lower costs on parochial schools and catholic universities. sounds like heaven.
 
Excellent Points…

You present some very excellent points that I have never considered. 👍

It would be interesting to see how many children these priest would have in light of the Church’s contracepton rule. 😉

Blessings,
Shannin
 
I believe I read someplace that in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the priests have secular jobs during the week and only are “priests” on weekends. The Bishops are full time Church employees?

Should we go that way?

What kind of limits could/should be placed on type of employment?

What if your confessor was a police officer? Taking the change from Mom’s purse might not be such a simple sin, after all.

Who does funerals and marriages during the week? Weekend only?

When do find the 8 hours or so needed to prepare a homily?

Who goes to all the parish meetings?

Could there be a priests’ union for wage and benefit negotiations?

How will the overtime rules apply?

What if Mom decides to work as a bartender?

Etc.
 
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bengal_fan:
it seems that protestant churches can fully support a pastor, his wife, and their children (and i have known many who have lots of kids i.e.5 or more). if they can do it (and sometimes the churches are tiny) why can’t a parish do it? because (and this is not to stereotype but to relay my experience) catholics don’t give as much money as protestants. most catholics (again, that i know) don’t tithe (i know it’s no longer commanded but it is also the only thing in the bible that God tells us to “test” Him on.
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While I agree with you on this, that it could be done, my comment was: “most Catholics don’t tithe now, would they suddenly begin if we have married priests”

Also, and I just don’t know about this, do protestant churches support pastors after retirement? Do those churches move the ministers around? Do they just pay them enough to get by, do they get a cut from collections? Do they (name removed by moderator)ut into the diocese? I’m seriously just not sure if there are structural differences that make it easier for them or if it is nothing more than a lack of Catholic participation in general.

Irregardless, one thing is certain, Catholics SHOULD trust God more and put in 10%. God will give you what you need and more, I know it has made a difference in my family’s life.

John
 
Alot of protestant pastors have jobs.

Also, to be a titheing member of the church, as a protestant (in some of the denominations I do not know about all of them) you must give 10% of your gross income and prove it by showing your W2 at the end of each year. This gives you certain rights within the church, such as voteing rights on who the pastor is.
 
I was over visiting a dear Priest friend of mine, and at 10:00 pm there was a knock on the door of the rectory. I answered the door for Father and the man there was in need of help, he asked if he could have his confession heard. Of course Father heard the confession and an hour latter we were again able to resume our visit (I was staying over night as he lives in a different city than my wife and I). I got to ask him how often things like that happen, and he explained to me that it came in spurts and was not something to plan around but rather to be open to helping the flock. When my wife and I discussed the visit the next day, it really made me think of the gift Celibacy of our Priests gives to all of us. We reach out as much as we can, but we have 3 boys now to raise and a little girl on the way, the familey has to come first. Father on the other hand has the familey of his flock and they do in deed come first. The greatest price for the loss of Priestly Celibacy, could be the loss of the Priest.

just a thought God bless you all
 
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bengal_fan:
it seems that protestant churches can fully support a pastor, his wife, and their children (and i have known many who have lots of kids i.e.5 or more). if they can do it (and sometimes the churches are tiny) why can’t a parish do it? QUOTE]

Not true … how large were these churches in what neighborhood - include benefits? Insurance?

Not all Protestant churches are the big Calvary Chapel off the highway. Take a look around and really see how many small churches there are around your city and ask yourself if they are all able to completely support a full-time pastor with wife and kids.

I’ve been on parish council and seen the numbers gathered across the denominations.
The statistics are the same in all churches only about 20% of the families give 80% of the operational costs.
The rest come from other resources and various donations.

Catholic Parishes are not individual completely separate financial units. They are also responsible to contribute to the diocese. Some parishs dontate more than others.
The Diocese holds the Insurance for all the parishes.

Some parishes always operate in the “red” and the Diocese supports them and their staff.

A protestant church would simply go “belly up”

This sets up the situation that only single priests could afford to work at poor parish.
But - that’s not his decision - It’s the Bishop’s decision.

A prostestant pastor can “take it or leave it” when his Church elders offer him a salary with or without benefits. And they often get other jobs on the side.

Priests are in a vocation obedient to the Bishop and are given “assignments”.

todd
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When the final reason for saying who should become a priest and who should not is reduced to the price tag, I smell a rat!

Shame on Catholics who would not support a married priest when Protestants gladly do so.
 
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Carl:
When the final reason for saying who should become a priest and who should not is reduced to the price tag, I smell a rat!

Shame on Catholics who would not support a married priest when Protestants gladly do so.
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Nobody said this was a “Final Reason”.

It is certainly a consideration.

The Church is also a temporal institution.
Marriage is a temporal instituation.

Celibacy is currently a discipline for most Latin Rite Priests for temporal reasons.

Why shouldn’t finances be part of the conversation along with the spiritual and the psychological ?

The Latin church decided long ago to require celibacy – It must have been for a darn good reason. I’m sure that money somehow figured into the picture somewhere.

There is no “rat” here. Just a pragmatist.

Furthermore - protestants don’t glady support a minister for his entire life.
They have contracts that expire. They don’t exactly promise to completely care for the family as well.

We need to inform ourselves as to the exact nature and promise that is made when a priest is ordained.
What responsibiliites he has to his Bishop and the Bishop has to him.
 
Everyone here seems to just be thinking about the money issue which is good but I think that there is more important element as well.

That is his spiritual life, time for prayer would get cut down by having a family, and pastoral care to the sick in the parish might become rushed, among other things he will have newer forms of temptation in his life as a husband in relations with his wife due to the fact that married people can sin sexually. I think that this would be an even greater burden for him.

Because lets face it - priests need to be holy, and I think that marriage would definitely make that harder to achieve even if he thinks he can be a successful shepherd and a dedicated husband at the same time.

:bigyikes: jegow:bigyikes:
 
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jegow:
Everyone here seems to just be thinking about the money issue which is good but I think that there is more important element as well.
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Thanks Jegow,

You are right that there are many important aspects.

Most of them are being discussed in another thread.
I started this thread because I have very rarely seen the Money issues disccused at all.

Mostly because I don’t think most people even know how money is handled in the Church.

I only have a simple understanding of it.

It is not often you will find a priest willing to talk about his finances and his relationship with the bishop.

Right or wrong, Good or bad we need to consider this information before trying to change somthing like priestly celibacy.

Some people don’t really stop to think of the ramifications.

People are people. Priests are sinners, too. There will be greater money issues to deal with and more chances for Envy and greed and pettiness if families are involved.

Does that mean we should have Marrried priest ???
Maybe - Maybe not…

But, I’d like to see anyone out there who supports Married priesthood suggest some solutions to the “real world” problems that it may create.

The problem may not be that the Church is not willing.
Perhaps, the Church is not able to financially support married clergy.

( Have you seen the salaries for even full time paid employees ? )

more thoughts
 
I realize there will be differences between Churches on opposite sides of the Atlantic,but it has been known over here for Protestant Ministers to take on bigger parishes to get the bigger stipend in order to provide for their family.In addition,i hear Protestant clergy,as often as Catholic,urging their congregation to pay more.
Imagine the catholic priest who does an ordinary job to provide
for his family and works the remaining hours of his day as a priest!!! His son goes off the rails,into drugs etc.,as a result of rarely seeing his father.If a son of mine went off the rails,i doubt very much if i would ask advice of that priest when he could not keep his own son on the straight and narrow.A few years ago,
we had a Protestant Minister whose daughter was a stripper for a while and then became a barmaid.Some protestants would not even regard working in a Bar as a suitable job.There are children
of the Manse who,while they don’t become strippers or Barmaids,do fall away from their father’s church,perhaps due to
rarely seeing Dad.A former Deputy Leader of the U.K.Labour Party,Roy Hattersley,is the son of a catholic priest who left the priesthood.Roy Hattersley appears not to even believe in God.
 
I really do not want to play devils advocate here.

But my cousin who is a protestent minister has large family, he is able to completly provide for his family from the offerings of his small congregation of 100 families.
 
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Jermosh:
But my cousin who is a protestent minister has large family, he is able to completly provide for his family from the offerings of his small congregation of 100 families.
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That’s great !

But, I also know some Ordained Protestant Ministers that are unemployed in their field.

Could you ask him how it works ?

Everytime he had a child could he ask for a raise ?
Does his wife work ? Does she have to ?
Does he save money to send the kids to college ?
Does he buy his own home - or does the congregation buy it for him ?
Is he on contract - or just a monthly salary ?
Under what conditions can he be fired ? Then what ?
What obligations does he have to the church members ?
Can he have another job ?

I really want to know how this works.
Here is the
Occupational Outlook Handbook entries for
Priests and other Christian Clergy
stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos063.htm
stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos061.htm

Who would set these things up in the Catholic Church ?
Each Parish makes a deal with each priest ?
Each Bishop makes the decision ?
Does the Bishop go to the Parish and work a deal with them ?

All I have are questions.
Does anyone know how this is done ?
Is there a diocese accountant on the List ?
 
I was over visiting a dear Priest friend of mine, and at 10:00 pm there was a knock on the door of the rectory. I answered the door for Father and the man there was in need of help, he asked if he could have his confession heard. Of course Father heard the confession and an hour latter we were again able to resume our visit (I was staying over night as he lives in a different city than my wife and I). I got to ask him how often things like that happen, and he explained to me that it came in spurts and was not something to plan around but rather to be open to helping the flock. When my wife and I discussed the visit the next day, it really made me think of the gift Celibacy of our Priests gives to all of us. We reach out as much as we can, but we have 3 boys now to raise and a little girl on the way, the familey has to come first. Father on the other hand has the familey of his flock and they do in deed come first. The greatest price for the loss of Priestly Celibacy, could be the loss of the Priest.
Click to expand...
This was a very good explanation of how one can’t serve two masters. 👍
 
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uncleauberon:
Priests don’t get salaries in the same way that Protestant preachers do.
With families to take care of they may seek to find other jobs to supplement a salary.
Or should they negotiate a salary with their Bishop and/or local ordinary, or should they bring their financial situation to the parish ?
?
Click to expand...
Yes, diocesan priests receive a salary, very modest in comparison with a protestant pastor in the same neighborhood, with FICA, health plan, and 503c or pension taken out. Sometimes a home is provided by the parish, sometimes he gets a mileage allowance, sometimes a clothing allowance (not always). Pays for his own day to day expenses, food etc. He is under the same IRS regulations that apply to clerics and pastors. His vows are chastity, obedience and fidelity, not necessary poverty. In most dioceses, the salary for a pastor or associate is set by the bishop, but paid from parish funds (as is the tax of about 11% of collections which goes to the diocese). he usually buys his own car, second vacation or retirement residence, takes care of aging parents or siblings, buys clothing and other needs from his salary.

A member of a religious order is in a different position and they vary widely. In general, if he has taken a vow of poverty anything he earns working for pay in a pastoral capacity is returned to his order, who provides for his living space and other needs.

In many dioceses, as in many corporations, pension plans have been mismanaged or and retired priests have no other resources than social security or family help.

Until all Catholics tithe, it is completely unrealistic to thing the average parish can support a married priest and his family at the level the family of a protestant pastor in the same city can enjoy.
 
Celibacy begets grace upon the congragation. I would rather be paid in grace than money any day. Grace is God’s charity.
  • Code: 
     		Economy can be based on money or charity. If base on money greed abounds. **Charity then charity abounds.** YOUR CHIOCE.
 
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