Priests and Bishops too shy

[georgemiller]

Too many priests and bishops are shy and even reluctant when it comes to teaching morality voting in today’s political world. Tell us not only to have an informed conscience but also tell us over and over again in clear language that it is gravely wrong to vote for someone who supports abortion and gay marriage. Even if necessary, I would rather the church lose its tax shelter and save souls by preaching the Gospel as the Apostles did.

Sometimes I wonder if the original Apostles (especially St Paul) were to again come back to the earth, just how much would they be hurt and disappointed with the present state and direction of the world? I also wonder how today’s world (especially people in the US) would react to the Apostles if they were to again return and preach the gospel of Jesus as they did some 2,000 years ago?

Take for example the teaching of St Paul from the book of Corinthians:
“Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.”

I suspect that most of the Apostles, especially St Paul, would again end up like they did the first time and that is being martyred again. Maybe we should all imitate the Apostles a little more!!!

 

[katcecelia]

I think the Church in the US became complacent over time and accepted that it She had no place in our politics… which is a perversion of our political process. I also think it is time for the Church to not just no longer worry about Her tax status, but to call for civil disobedience to the HHS mandate. It has passed the point when we can rely on our government structures to reverse the tide. The Church will be forced underground sooner or later at this point, we may as well not go quietly, but try to save as many lost souls as we can before She is silenced.

 

[Tietjen]

I think it’s easy to blame the clergy for being “lax” but the reality is that the laity (or those claiming to be Catholic) are the ones that need to get their act together. According to the exit polls on this last election 48% of those claiming to be Catholic supported a man that is directly attacking their Church, the unborn, marriage, etc! That’s 48%!!! Ya know, I can believe that there are “some” Catholics out there that are weak in their faith but 48%!!! I’m sorry, I don’t blame the clergy for that. I grew up in the 60s & 70s and my catechesis wasn’t the greatest; however, I took it upon myself to learn the faith because I knew that it was important. I’m not tooting my own horn here, MANY have done the same. The problem is that apparently, 48% of today’s Catholics don’t feel it’s important enough to spend the time and energy doing this. How can we expect priests to inspire these same “Catholics” to take their faith seriously? We already have great priests and bishops. The problem is that 48% of Catholics no longer believe the dogmas of the Church.

 

[JRKH]

Good post, katcecelia…couple of points.

I think the Church in the US became complacent over time and accepted that it She had no place in our politics… which is a perversion of our political process.

I both agree and disagree with this. The Church’s reason for wishing to stay out of politics probably has more to do with having “learned it’s lesson” after so many centuries of being intimately involved in politics. Perhaps things have gone a bit too far…but still there are good reasons for the Church ti remain “aloof” from politics.

As for being complacent…yes I agree, and it is not only the Catholic Church but Christians in general who have become complacent. Christian principles have held sway in the U.S. for so long that they simply were taken for granted. Now - there are other voices, other views, who are speaking up and demanding to be heard. Some of these voices are right, and some are wrong, but they are demanding and they are receiving time in the public square.
It seems that in many ways, the Christian community has be caught “napping”…and/or very weak in their faith and commitment.

I also think it is time for the Church to not just no longer worry about Her tax status, but to call for civil disobedience to the HHS mandate. It has passed the point when we can rely on our government structures to reverse the tide.

The Tax status is a perfect example of a “golden chain”, as it were. The tax exempt status of Churches has been of great benefit to the country, but it has provided a pathway by which the government can “muzzle” the pulpit either by reinterpreting existing rules, or making new rules governing various tax exempt organizations.
As difficult as it will be for the Church, I agree that something needs to be done in order to shake off these chains of the golden idol - the “almighty Dollar”

The Church will be forced underground sooner or later at this point, we may as well not go quietly, but try to save as many lost souls as we can before She is silenced.

The Church can never be silenced. If history teaches anything it must be that the greater the persecution of the Church, the stronger she becomes. Not larger perhaps, but definitely stronger.

Peace
James

 

[JerryZ]

Listening to the Catholic Answers program the past few days it seems fairly obvious that many are still torn with the past election for president.
(possibly their consciences are already starting to nag them)

Many are still asking:

Was it OK to vote for a “Mormon” instead of voting for a “Christian”
Or
Can I vote for a “Republican” as opposed to voting a “Democrat”

I was thinking that the basic issue here is that those are labels that describe an attitude and or a code of conduct.

Now let’s evaluate the first issue:

Mormon vs Christian

Who lives up to the measure of Jesus and can use the Christian label faithfully

Can a person that is a true Christian that knows Jesus in his heart allow the murder of unborn babies?

I posit to you that it is anatema to God.

Can someone that believes that homosexual acts are normal and merit the redefinition of Marriage as a union between “humans” instead of a “man and a woman” (Institution asserted by Jesus)?

Again I posit to you this to be anatema to God

So his actions show that this person certainly is not a follower of Christ but merely is using the label.

Matthew 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

This is what people fail to realize, we allow the use of labels to define a person instead of using his morality and actions in life that are the fruits of his convictions.

Lets evaluate the second premise

Their reasoning is: The Democrats are “defender of the poor” while those pesky Republicans have this Mormon guy that is “pro life”.

Well the issue there is: does “murder” trump “defender of the poor”
What is the greater evil? by the way I posit to you that we need to change the equation a little and substitute the REAL religion of the candidate of the Democratic party with “UNKNOWN”
Because we don’t have sufficient data to make a determination since from our first point we know he definetively is not a true Christian.
At least not according to the teachings of Jesus, St. Paul, Matthew, etc.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think this is a most unfair generalization. The priests and bishops are preaching. The laity simply are not listening.

I think sometimes we assume that our clergy have more power than they actually do. They cannot compel people to choose the good simply by preaching about it constantly. We have free will. And many Catholics are choosing to ignore their shepherds.

 

[JerryZ]

And by the way to all out there who voted for the “Catholic VP” he is an excomunicated Catholic.
Until he repents and changes his position he will remain a dead branch.

“A politician who publicly supports abortion, he excommunicates himself. It’s not question of receiving Communion or not; he has already done serious harm to the communion of faith of the Church, to the communion of moral life, and therefore that person himself is doing an act that is inconsistent with what he says he believes,” the Cardinal Rodriguez told Polo.

“A politician who publicly supports abortion, he excommunicates himself. It’s not question of receiving Communion or not; he has already done serious harm to the communion of faith of the Church, to the communion of moral life, and therefore that person himself is doing an act that is inconsistent with what he says he believes,” the Cardinal Rodriguez told Polo.

Did He not confess to the world this with his lips?

And by the way He says “while I don’t believe I can’t do nothing about it”

Sorry! but no cigar for you! He signed the Party Platform and Abortion is there therefore that is “Public Support”

It was time the Bishops of the whole planet started acting on this scandal and disgrace.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think this is a most unfair generalization. The priests and bishops are preaching. The laity simply are not listening.

I think sometimes we assume that our clergy have more power than they actually do. They cannot compel people to choose the good simply by preaching about it constantly. We have free will. And many Catholics are choosing to ignore their shepherds.

EXACTLY! I hear about it at my parish ALL the time…and yet there are those in the pews who would argue about it…telling me I can’t JUST vote pro-life…on that one issue. When I tell them that is correct…there are 5 non-negotiables…they just dismiss me.

We have to pray more that their hearts will eventually be reached. I’d rather be an atheist then a lukewarm Catholic…

 

[georgemiller]

When you say the laity is not listenting, who are you talking about relative to listenting to who? When was the last time you heard from the pulpit any comdemnation of political leaders, many who are Catholic, who support abortion and same sex marriage. Stop being politically and spiritually correct! Pray rather that the Church leadership will have more spiritual wisdom and backbone and preach the Gospel as it applies to present day political issues.

 

[JRKH]

I think this is a most unfair generalization. The priests and bishops are preaching. The laity simply are not listening.

I think sometimes we assume that our clergy have more power than they actually do. They cannot compel people to choose the good simply by preaching about it constantly. We have free will. And many Catholics are choosing to ignore their shepherds.

This is very true, but I also think that we should not ignore the great damage done to the credibility of the “shepherds” by the various scandals in our recent past. Deserved or not…the damage has been done and it is great.

In addition there has been a shift in the Church over the decades since Vatican II that has acted to promote a more independent and critical thinking on the part of the laity. This too, while in itself a good thing, has had some unfortunate effects. The lay faithful are no longer as abjectly obedient as they were in the past.

The biggest thing that the Church can do to become more effective in the world is to do all that she can to heal herself - yet even this will take considerable time.

Peace
James

 

[DonMack]

…I suspect that most of the Apostles, especially St Paul, would again end up like they did the first time and that is being martyred again. Maybe we should all imitate the Apostles a little more!!!

I completely understand your sentiments . In fact we had a very lively discussion about this idea at my RCIA class this week. During the class I argued for your position.
The instructors felt that I was attacking the Church’s teaching; I felt that they weren’t being true to the Gospels.
After prayer and contemplation I was guided to the following: I Know that the Biblical God is real and that Jesus established the RC Church through Peter and gave the authority and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He established the Defender of the Faith (RC Church) to reveal his Truths as our civilization moves toward his final plan. Our job as Christians is to obey God.The Magisterium’s job is to provide the knowledge of the normal way for the average person to learn about God and how to live a Christian life in our current time. Vatican 2 expanded our knowledge toward God’s plan and some people feel that this has watered down the Faith. Since I believe the Church has the authority and guidance… who am I to disagree with them. The more I read the Catechism, the more I realize they have done their job, and I should learn to do mine. The Priest at my parish does a wonderful job explaining the teaching of the Church, the Deacons advise according to the Magisterium. As Christians we have an obligation to do more than to expect the Church to force feed us. The Catechism teaches and allows many ways to expand our faith other than the normal way for the average person. If we expect more, then we should do more.

 

[Joe_5859]

This is very true, but I also think that we should not ignore the great damage done to the credibility of the “shepherds” by the various scandals in our recent past. Deserved or not…the damage has been done and it is great.

In addition there has been a shift in the Church over the decades since Vatican II that has acted to promote a more independent and critical thinking on the part of the laity. This too, while in itself a good thing, has had some unfortunate effects. The lay faithful are no longer as abjectly obedient as they were in the past.

The biggest thing that the Church can do to become more effective in the world is to do all that she can to heal herself - yet even this will take considerable time.

Peace
James

I agree. Certainly, theses things have all played into why the laity don’t listen to their shepherds. And there is no quick fix.

I just get irked when people speak as though the only thing standing in the way of the Catholic view permeating society and Jesus coming in glory is timid priests and bishops. It’s always the “other guy’s” fault.

 

[Richard320]

I agree.

I admire Boldness. Cardinal Levada used to go personally and pray the Rosary outside Planned Parenthood in San Francisco. He also led the Walk for Life, right up in front.

On the other hand, they’re human, too. The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower. Bp. Cordileone is no shrinking violet, so much was made of his DUI arrest. I’m sure he wasn’t the only person arrested that night at that sobriety checkpoint, so why don’t we see a list of the others?

What disgusts me is the wishy-washy language used to promote church teachings by the USCCB. Why not just spit it out in plain language? It seems their motto is “Don’t say a word, when you can use a paragraph instead.” usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/Forming-Consciences-Faithful-Citizenship-bulletin-insert.pdf I believe the term is Obfuscation.

And the emphasis on non-essentials, like this from yesterday:

WASHINGTON—Catholic scholars, U.S. bishops and Catholic leaders from around the Washington region will discuss the moral and religious implications of global climate change and environmental justice at a November 8-10 symposium at The Catholic University of America (CUA)

A HUGE percentage of “Catholics” voted against church teachings just a couple days ago, and they’re worrying about this garbage? What is Environmental Justice? Good stewardship of the planet is in the Catechism, but where’d this **** come from?

 

[JRKH]

I agree. Certainly, theses things have all played into why the laity don’t listen to their shepherds. And there is no quick fix.

Amen - I figured we were mostly on the “same page”.

I just get irked when people speak as though the only thing standing in the way of the Catholic view permeating society and Jesus coming in glory is timid priests and bishops. It’s always the “other guy’s” fault.

Yes - blaming someone else seems to be one of the fundamental problems today just in general.

As for the “timidity” of our shepherds, I think that it would go a long way if they would become for firm with the public dissenters as well as with errant clergy. We need to clean up our own yard before we complain about the neighbors.

Peace
James

 

[georgemiller]

It seems that everyone wants Catholics to read on just what is and is not Church teachings and thus learn and apply the Gospel of Jesus . That has not worked in the past…How about some old fashion pulpit preaching. Preaching that clearly tells us what is grave sin today in our culture. Preaching that warns us to,
“Do not conform yourselves to this age because “the world and its desires are fading away, but the person who does God’s will remains forever.”

 

[GratefulFred]

Many excellent comments. I too believe that we would be better off if more of us had the confidence to be bold as St Paul and countless more were, even some today.

The Church’s mission is to help us understand better and better our proper relationship with God. Then, the “politics” are left up to us.

The Church must communicate clearly. But we must not only listen, but also make best efforts to apply our Catholic principles in our lives and when we vote. Tietjen stated that 48% of Catholics voted for the candidate that is publically against the tennets of our Faith. In 2008, 54% of the Catholics supported him. So, I see some progress.

Clear communication is a challenge. I was fortunate to attend Catholic school grade 7-12. I had 5 hours of religion each week for 6 years. Most parish CCD programs are just one hour a week and perhaps only 1/3 of the students who should attend actually do. Hello Parents !!!

Then most adult Catholics get only the 10 minute homily on Sunday. Do we pay attention??? Do we want hear what we need to or just what we want to to avoid any feeling of guilt? My family prefers to attend the Masses where the priest tells it plain and simple and we do listen. When a priest has done well that day, I try to tell him that on our way out.

Our priests and bishops do need to be bold, but always speak The Truth in the Spirit of Love, plain and simple. Then, we need to listen and act as Christians are called to act by Christ Himself.

 

[JRKH]

Many excellent comments. I too believe that we would be better off if more of us had the confidence to be bold as St Paul and countless more were, even some today.

The Church’s mission is to help us understand better and better our proper relationship with God. Then, the “politics” are left up to us.

The Church must communicate clearly. But we must not only listen, but also make best efforts to apply our Catholic principles in our lives and when we vote. Tietjen stated that 48% of Catholics voted for the candidate that is publically against the tennets of our Faith. In 2008, 54% of the Catholics supported him. So, I see some progress.

Clear communication is a challenge. I was fortunate to attend Catholic school grade 7-12. I had 5 hours of religion each week for 6 years. Most parish CCD programs are just one hour a week and perhaps only 1/3 of the students who should attend actually do. Hello Parents !!!

Then most adult Catholics get only the 10 minute homily on Sunday. Do we pay attention??? Do we want hear what we need to or just what we want to to avoid any feeling of guilt? My family prefers to attend the Masses where the priest tells it plain and simple and we do listen. When a priest has done well that day, I try to tell him that on our way out.

Our priests and bishops do need to be bold, but always speak The Truth in the Spirit of Love, plain and simple. Then, we need to listen and act as Christians are called to act by Christ Himself.

 

[Newbie2]

I think this is a most unfair generalization. The priests and bishops are preaching. The laity simply are not listening.

I think sometimes we assume that our clergy have more power than they actually do. They cannot compel people to choose the good simply by preaching about it constantly. We have free will. And many Catholics are choosing to ignore their shepherds.

I agree, Joe. IF every Catholic were to vote his or her FORMED conscience, we wouldn’t be where we are with the Anti-Catholic policies in our government.

 

[Lapey]

I think it’s easy to blame the clergy for being “lax” but the reality is that the laity (or those claiming to be Catholic) are the ones that need to get their act together. According to the exit polls on this last election 48% of those claiming to be Catholic supported a man that is directly attacking their Church, the unborn, marriage, etc! That’s 48%!!! Ya know, I can believe that there are “some” Catholics out there that are weak in their faith but 48%!!! I’m sorry, I don’t blame the clergy for that. I grew up in the 60s & 70s and my catechesis wasn’t the greatest; however, I took it upon myself to learn the faith because I knew that it was important. I’m not tooting my own horn here, MANY have done the same. The problem is that apparently, 48% of today’s Catholics don’t feel it’s important enough to spend the time and energy doing this. How can we expect priests to inspire these same “Catholics” to take their faith seriously? We already have great priests and bishops. The problem is that 48% of Catholics no longer believe the dogmas of the Church.

I am a member of the clergy, and I can tell you from an inside view the clergy is guilty of causing much of the confusion. Many deacons, priests, and bishops are luke warm in their preaching; in most cases because they favor a particular political party or ideology. We must remember we are people too, human in all ways.

It is time for the clergy as a whole to pick up the truth and run with it, even if you do not personally buy in 100%. I personally hold the clergy responsible for this election especially. Are we the total blame for the inconsistent message? No, the laity has their level of guilt too.

But I ask you, how many homilies in your life, especially in the last few years have you heard the homilist say there are absolute evils and we cannot support them? Have you heard a priest, deacon or bishop preach on the evils of contraception, abortion, same sex “marriage”, etc.? There are other tough topics such as the death penalty, immigration, war, etc., that although not on the same level as the other topics I mentioned, are topics which we should hear from the pulpit.

I can assure you these homilies are being preached at my assigned parish. If they are not being preached at yours, call your pastor’s office and ask why not; if that does no good, call your bishop’s office. The laity can re-form the clergy, demand that change, you deserve it!!!

 

[georgemiller]

Thanks for being honest and up front on these matters. We need a lot more like you. God bless, george.