Priests Get In Brawl Outside Christianity's Holiest Shrine

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If I speak with tongues of men and of angels,but have not love, I am but a noisy gong,a clanging symbal. Love is patient,love is kind,love is never rude.it is not prone to anger,.love never fails, FOR GOD IS LOVE. Let us as christian live by Gods love. đź‘Ť
 
I think this happens more often than we think. Especially with the lay people. I was in the Holy Land in 1995 and 2000. In 1995, we did the Stations of the Cross on a Friday. The number of people was unbelievable. Right when we got to the Sepulchre, time was running out and the people in front of me were Parisians. It was awful…they were pushing and shoving whether you were 92 or walking with a cane. Our group had to hold hands so we wouldn’t get lost or fall. I heard the parisians talking and little did they know that I understood French and I interjected and gave them proper ****, respectfully though, as we were in a the Holiest sight in the whole world. It didn’t matter…they got to the burial alcove of Jesus and none of us did. The Franciscan in charge, during this time, tried to control the people but to no avail. He threatened to call the Jewish police, to no avail. The chaos continued.

When our group finally got out to make room for the Orthodox Church to come in, also with their procession, I stepped aside and I bawled like a baby at the dishonor that we have just committed against Our Lord. Of course, did they not push and shove when He walked the Via Dolorosa? I cried so long by myself that I lost my group and lost my way in the neighboring market (which is like a maze!). Go figure…

In 2000, we prayed the Stations of the Cross on a Thursday avoiding all of this sacrilegious behavior. Finally, I was blessed to enter into the burial site of Jesus.

God bless…
Shoshana
 
While Christians remain a “significant” minority in the Holy Land and there is enough time left before the last Christian is out, the concerned “authorities” should now open the reconsideration of the “Status Quo” and redefine the role of the “Custos.”
 
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stellina:
I went to Franciscan schools all the way through high school and I have to say that every Franciscan I’ve ever known tried to follow the gentle example of their founder. In my wildest dreams I can’t imagine them starting a fight.
Franciscans in Europe are not always the fat and cuddly Friar Tucks from the Robin Hood stories. They have been known to fail, and dramatically, the example of their founder.

See

nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word0627.htm

and

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=221829&postcount=59

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=221807&postcount=58
 
Anna Elizabeth:
For what it’s worth, I have personally been pushed forceably by a priest of the Greek Orthodox community that controls the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. This happened while being in line to enter the site of the Nativity, and he wanted me to get out of the way for others who had come later.

It was rather weird since he was a good deal taller than I and about three or maybe even four times my weight. The whole thing seemed at the time (and still does), rather surreal. It happened to be Pentecost Sunday, too. Really odd. :whacky:

I didn’t have to let the others in, as it turned out. The people surrounding me, realizing what was happening, moved together and sort of formed a cordon. I think he was upset with our group, as we were saying a Rosay while waiting our turn, and he told us to keep quiet. Then, when the later-comers arrived, he attempted to push us away!

Pray always! 🙂

Anna
Fr. Ambrose, I suppose you conveniently chose to ignore this.
 
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stellina:
Fr. Ambrose, I suppose you conveniently chose to ignore this.
Dear Stellina,

There is another aspect coming to light about the troubled atmosphere in Jerusalem, centred on the Roman Catholic Patriarch.

Patriarch of Terror

By Joseph D’Hippolito
FrontPageMagazine.com | January 4, 2005
frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16525

Christmastime in Bethlehem does not stand for ”peace on earth” but for intensified *jihad * against the occupying Jews, as least according to the highest-ranking Roman Catholic prelate in the Holy Land.

Michel Sabbah, the Latin [Roman Catholic] Patriarch of Jerusalem, has praised jihad, justified suicide bombing, and led marches at the behest of the late Yasser Arafat – leading some to question whose bidding the patriarch is doing.

Sabbah, an Arab and a native of Nazareth, expressed his collaborationist sympathies most forcefully during a visit to a refugee camp near Bethlehem in 1999. During that visit, the patriarch placed a wreath on a memorial to so-called “martyrs.” He then maintained that the right of return is “an existing fact that cannot be given up,” and declared that Israel’s “extracting our rights in all circumstances is a form of jihad” against the Palestinians.

However, he has not always objected to holy war. “Love is power and *jihad * and does not express weakness,” he told the newspaper Al-Quds.

Sabbah goes further by excusing suicide bombing as a legitimate response to Israeli policy. Sabbah said in a 2002 videotape to Palestinian Christians:

Ours is an occupied country, which explains why people are tired and blow themselves up. The Israelis tell Palestinians: Stop the violence and you will have what you want without violence. But one has seen in the history of the last ten years that the Israelis have moved only when forced by violence. Unfortunately, nothing but violence makes people march. And not only here. Every country has been born in blood.

Sabbah’s service to Yasser Arafat’s terrorists extends beyond words. On New Year’s Eve 2002, the patriarch led a “peace” march toward one of the Israeli checkpoints. Only about 200 people – most of them Italian pilgrims – joined Sabbah. A Franciscan priest named Father Ibrahim explained to Italian journalist Massimo Toschi from Missioni Oggi (the monthly published by the Xaverian missionaries) why the march attracted so few people. “He says that…the patriarch organized the march at Fatah’s request and that this was a mistake,” Toschi wrote, “because the next time the request will come from Hamas and the patriarch won’t be able to say no.” The Fatah organization, which Arafat founded in 1959, is dedicated to creating a Palestinian state by destroying Israel. Patriarch Sabbah literally follows their marching orders.

Sabbah has worked with a variety of other Palestinian terrorists, as well. In 2000, Sabbah met with Arafat in Gaza as an act of “Christian solidarity with the Palestinian leadership,” according to a press release from the patriarch’s office. The release’s author took great pains to mention by name the Christians in Arafat’s inner circle – including George Nabash, founder of the Marxist-oriented Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

Sabbah’s anti-Semitism is deep and overt, as evidenced by his remarks toward Arafat during Christmas Mass in 1995. In welcoming Arafat, the patriarch “was happy to recall” how Byzantine Patriarch Sophronius tried to persuade Muslim Caliph Umar Ibn al-Khattab to prohibit Jews from living and worshipping in Jerusalem after conquering it in 636 – eight years after Sophronius instigated a widespread massacre of Jews. “In the end,” Sabbah once said, “we will send them away just as we did to the Crusaders.”

Indeed, he seemed to call for the full-scale demolition of the Jewish state during a proclamation at the 2000 Christmas Mass: “This is our land, to claim our freedom, among our demolished houses and in our besieged towns and villages.”

The patriarch engaged in a worldwide PR effort for terrorists during the seven-week stalemate between Palestinian gunmen and the Israeli army at Bethlehem’s Church of the Nativity in 2002 – although his testimony was contradicted by others in his church. When gunmen invaded the church and began their seven-week occupation on April 1, Sabbah “immediately declared that the entering Palestinians were not armed, were willingly accepted into the Church by the friars, and given asylum,” Sergio Minerbi wrote for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.

continued…
 
…continued

Patriarch of Terror

While diminishing the Israelis’ concerns about terrorism, Sabbah accentuates Palestinian victimization. Commenting on the situation at the Church of the Nativity on May 8, 2002, Sabbah stated, “As the cause of all violence is the Israeli military occupation of the Palestinian lands, once the occupation is ended, violence will cease.” During Easter Mass that year, he stated “Injustice and oppression have been imposed on only one of the two peoples,” adding that Israeli leaders “must stop talking about terrorism to hide the root evil and to justify and feed the permanence of death and hatred.”

Such rhetoric has won the Palestinian patriarch a number of leftist admirers in the United States. Since 1999, Sabbah has been president of Pax Christi International, a Roman Catholic organization that advocates radical pacifism. Though Sabbah’s views might seem to disqualify him from leading such an organization, they fit Pax Christi’s underlying philosophy of excusing Palestinian murder. Sabbah’s told the Pax Christi USA’s 2003 national assembly:

With the start of the second intifada or Palestinian resistance, under the guise of dismantling the infrastructure of Palestinian terrorism, Israeli forces have systematically destroyed almost every political and civil Palestinian institution over the last twelve months. Not only have President Arafat’s government and security services been decimated, banks and businesses, schools and research centers, town halls, media outlets, the land registry and the courts have been violated or destroyed. A peaceful future cannot be shaped in this way.

It is the civilian population, in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and as well as in Israel, that is the victim of this never-ending spiral of violence, of unjust military occupation and of the current political and economic crisis.
<snip: please see full article…>

In his Christmas 2003 sermon, Sabbah criticized the security fence that helps separate Bethlehem from the rest of the West Bank, and called Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip the conflict’s “basic evil.”

“The sacrifices of these years will not be for nothing if those responsible conclude the true results, rather than concluding that building the wall is the true solution,” the patriarch said. “The true results are that war destroys people and places and does not silence a people that demands its freedom.”

Last year, Sabbah reiterated that theme. “Bethlehem should be a free city,” he said on December 21. “The Israeli authorities resumed the work to complete the wall, which makes Bethlehem a big prison. Ending the oppression and the humiliation of the Palestinians would at the same time put an end to the fear and insecurity of the Israelis.”

That same day, Sabbah declared that Palestinians have “adopted plans for peace” and that “Israeli leaders are invited to do likewise by putting an end to their military interventions and by stopping construction of the wall, as well as the hunt for the wanted.”

Sabbah’s activism overshadows his pastoral responsibilities and destroyed his credibility with Palestinian Christians. “It’s surprising that Bethlehem’s Catholics are not behind the patriarch,” Toschi wrote in describing the New Year’s Eve 2002 peace march. “There’s talk about the divisions present even between the Catholic churches and there’s consensus on the idea of the necessity of the Latin patriarch being more autonomous with respect to political positions.” Italian journalist Sandro Magister, who has covered the Vatican for more than 25 years, wrote in L’Espresso that Sabbah is “isolated … even within the Palestinian Catholic community. Isolated because he is partisan; excessively aligned with the extremist currents that throw their weight around in Bethlehem and the territories.”

Two days later, Franciscans, who serve as Catholic custodians of holy sites, refuted the patriarch. Spokesman David Jaeger, a Franciscan priest, wrote that the ensuing Israeli siege resulted from “the violent invasion affected by armed men who thereafter barricaded themselves there.” Jaeger also told the Israeli daily Ha’aretz that “when the battle started, the doors of the Basilica were closed. Armed Palestinians fired at the locks, entered the Basilica, and barricaded themselves in the compound.”

In 2003, Pope John Paul II delivered a subtle vote of no confidence in Sabbah’s pastoral stewardship by appointing Jean-Baptiste Courion – a convert from Judaism – as auxiliary bishop responsible for Hebrew-speaking Catholics. But as the worldwide clerical sex-abuse crisis demonstrates, this pope feels reluctant to discipline malfeasant bishops more forcefully.

Moreover, subtlety might be lost on an activist prelate who has made collaboration with genocidal totalitarians a way of life.
 
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cestusdei:
Wow am I going to be popular over there.
Code:
You’ll do just fine…especially if you have Arale Lahav as a tour guide…If you get him, please give him my love… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_5_14.gif He is a sweetie.

Go get 'em, Cest, and have some fun at the Dead Sea. You must put mud all over yourself and just float for quite awhile and your skin will be as soft as a baby’s bum. Do it, you’ll like it. I plastered my priest and gave him a massage (on his back)…very reverently of course…and he enjoyed it!

Why don’t you get a picture done with the young military men? They are more than willing to please…and then you can share your picture here!

I truly wish you the best, cest… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/900.gif

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
I can’t believe this topic got dug up again after several months. Fr. Ambrose, with all due respect to the fact that you are a clergyman, please let it rest. I know several Orthodox and I have never, ever heard anything from them that even comes close to approaching the obvious hatred you have for my church. They are fine Christian people who have given me a good impression of the Orthodox , but many Catholics here are not so lucky and yours is the only impression they will get. Perhaps it would be better to just ignore you, but I cannot stand by and let you continue without speaking up. Once and for all, stop it.

Cestusdei, we need more priests like you! Are you also a Franciscan?
 
Fr Ambrose:
…continued

In his Christmas 2003 sermon, Sabbah criticized the security fence that helps separate Bethlehem from the rest of the West Bank, and called Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip the conflict’s �basic evil.�

�The sacrifices of these years will not be for nothing if those responsible conclude the true results, rather than concluding that building the wall is the true solution,� the patriarch said. �The true results are that war destroys people and places and does not silence a people that demands its freedom.�

Last year, Sabbah reiterated that theme. �Bethlehem should be a free city,� he said on December 21. �The Israeli authorities resumed the work to complete the wall, which makes Bethlehem a big prison. Ending the oppression and the humiliation of the Palestinians would at the same time put an end to the fear and insecurity of the Israelis.�

That same day, Sabbah declared that Palestinians have �adopted plans for peace� and that �Israeli leaders are invited to do likewise by putting an end to their military interventions and by stopping construction of the wall, as well as the hunt for the wanted.�

Sabbah’s activism overshadows his pastoral responsibilities and destroyed his credibility with Palestinian Christians. �It’s surprising that Bethlehem�s Catholics are not behind the patriarch,� Toschi wrote in describing the New Year’s Eve 2002 peace march. �There’s talk about the divisions present even between the Catholic churches and there’s consensus on the idea of the necessity of the Latin patriarch being more autonomous with respect to political positions.� Italian journalist Sandro Magister, who has covered the Vatican for more than 25 years, wrote in L’Espresso that Sabbah is �isolated … even within the Palestinian Catholic community. Isolated because he is partisan; excessively aligned with the extremist currents that throw their weight around in Bethlehem and the territories.�

Two days later, Franciscans, who serve as Catholic custodians of holy sites, refuted the patriarch. Spokesman David Jaeger, a Franciscan priest, wrote that the ensuing Israeli siege resulted from �the violent invasion affected by armed men who thereafter barricaded themselves there.� Jaeger also told the Israeli daily Ha’aretz that �when the battle started, the doors of the Basilica were closed. Armed Palestinians fired at the locks, entered the Basilica, and barricaded themselves in the compound.�

In 2003, Pope John Paul II delivered a subtle vote of no confidence in Sabbah’s pastoral stewardship by appointing Jean-Baptiste Courion � a convert from Judaism � as auxiliary bishop responsible for Hebrew-speaking Catholics. But as the worldwide clerical sex-abuse crisis demonstrates, this pope feels reluctant to discipline malfeasant bishops more forcefully.

Moreover, subtlety might be lost on an activist prelate who has made collaboration with genocidal totalitarians a way of life.
Fr Ambrose is apparantly trying to minister to us about world events, such as the little war between Palastine and Isreal… Judaism and Islamic Fundamentilist… It is a further lesson about how Growing schism in the church are growing into this envrioment with undesired consequences and the Pope unwillingness to interfere, in someways exasterbates the problems in our own CHurch. Thus spilling over into the sepulchre of the Nativity. Why should we be surprised that the New World Agenda has taken the Baby Jesus birthplace Hostage. Its taken our churchs and our government hostage.

I resent it when people who try to educate and minister to the masses are deemed as interfering. If we were aware fo the problem and ministering to it and praying for it… It would be on Earth as it is in Heaven!
 
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Bill_A:
I resent it when people who try to educate and minister to the masses are deemed as interfering. If we were aware fo the problem and ministering to it and praying for it… It would be on Earth as it is in Heaven!
All well and good, but do you understand that information is slanted & that it comes from a non-Catholic with an obvious anti-Catholic agenda? That it insults the Holy Father, who has tried perhaps more than any pope in history to reach out to the Eastern churches - only to be rejected & criticized for it over & over again?

Face it; this isn’t education or ministry or anything remotely innocent. I’m sick of these forums being overrun with this anti-Catholic venom and I wish the moderator would put an end to it.
 
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stellina:
All well and good, but do you understand that information is slanted & that it comes from a non-Catholic with an obvious anti-Catholic agenda? That it insults the Holy Father, who has tried perhaps more than any pope in history to reach out to the Eastern churches - only to be rejected & criticized for it over & over again?

Face it; this isn’t education or ministry or anything remotely innocent. I’m sick of these forums being overrun with this anti-Catholic venom and I wish the moderator would put an end to it.
I am not quite sure that I fully understand what you are saying and so I am reqeusting some kind of clarification: when discussing faiths other than one’s own, one would suspect that the POV is going to be different than one’s own - that’s a given I think.

Stating one’s view does not insult the Pope; he is well aware and more than we are, coming from that part of the world, how Orthodoxy views Catholicism and what the problems are with Protstants and Islam as well. Acknowleging that there are problems in unifcation, discussing why, hardly makes a post “insulting to the pope”.

Having just leaped into the current levels of posts in this thread do I understand that the article on Sabbah is being construed by you as some kind of “anti Catholic” rhetoric? I posted this same information in the News section because I found it newsworthy…much in it has been well known for some time to the point of noting that within the last year the Vatican had to appoint an auxiliary in the region - those who follow events in this part of the world were aware of Sabbah’s statements from the past and understood that he was seen as not impartial, had a POV which was causing problems for others and thus sought to put oil on the flames.

If if I have misunderstood your post, please forgive me, there is a real danger with jumping into a thread altready so lengthy. But it does seem to me a bit unrealistic not to think that other faiths have their own POV’s both negative and positive and that they can be discussed rationally - no one expects that we shall end up agreeing on everything but it does help for us all to see how the other side thinks and feels. Churches are composed of people - both those who serve well and those who serve not so well. I think being ble to say that does no disrepect to anyone’s church.
 
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