Priests more into psychology than Jesus..

[Fran65]

I would like to remind people of several of things:

1. Not all psychologists prescribe or advocate the use of medication. In the UK, psychologists cannot prescribe medication and many would not want to anyway.
2. Most psychologists and psychiatrists are not atheist. Some are, some are Christian, some have other faiths, just like other clinicians. Many psychologists and psychiatrists recognise the value of faith and religion in the lives of their patients and I have never met one who dismisses it or regards it as symptomatic of illness.
3. God gave us an intellect and the ability to reason so that we could get closer to Him, but also so that we can improve our own lives and others through the use of science. He also calls some to the vocation of medicine and clinical research. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with psychology or psychiatry unless it rejects God and that is not the case. It uses our God given intellect to understand the nature and functioning of the nervous system and peoples’ behaviour in order to better understand them. This means that we draw closer to God by understanding his creation better.
4. There is nothing intrinsically wrong or disordered with using medication. You might choose not to use it and that’s you’re choice. It says nothing about someone’s faith if they choose to use God given knowledge to treat an illness.
5. Yes, psychological disturbance can occur as the result of spiritual disturbance, but this is rare and the judgement of whether this is the case or not should be left to an experienced team of priests, doctors and psychologists. The Catholic church herself teaches that this judgement should not be left solely to an individual.

Karen

 

[distracted]

I5) Yes, psychological disturbance can occur as the result of spiritual disturbance, but this is rare and the judgement of whether this is the case or not should be left to an experienced team of priests, doctors and psychologists. The Catholic church herself teaches that this judgement should not be left solely to an individual.

Karen

You make a distinction betwen “psycholigal disturbances” and spiritual ones… I don’t… (at least as concerns my own issues). I look at a person as a whole being… and so does God. The emotions, the intellect, the spirit are all what combine to make a person who s/he is… and should not always be separated out as doctors and others do…

And you are dead wrong about the Catholic Church teaching that the decision of what treatment a person should take should not be left to the individual…

This sounds like Big Brother… Like “Oh… you think you should do this? Well, these other “professionals” here think otherwise… and we are professionals so our opinion counts…so you have to do what we say…”

Baloney… The Church (not to mention our U.S Constitution) believes in people having the freedom to decide things in their lives for themselves… Only when a person’s decision harms another is the Church going to say it is wrong…

 

[EasterJoy]

You make a distinction betwen “psycholigal disturbances” and spiritual ones… I don’t… (at least as concerns my own issues). I look at a person as a whole being… and so does God. The emotions, the intellect, the spirit are all what combine to make a person who s/he is… and should not always be separated out as doctors and others do…

And you are dead wrong about the Catholic Church teaching that the decision of what treatment a person should take should not be left to the individual…

This sounds like Big Brother… Like “Oh… you think you should do this? Well, these other “professionals” here think otherwise… and we are professionals so our opinion counts…so you have to do what we say…”

Baloney… The Church (not to mention our U.S Constitution) believes in people having the freedom to decide things in their lives for themselves… Only when a person’s decision harms another is the Church going to say it is wrong…

The US Constitution believes in people having freedom…it does not guarantee that they are right. Furthermore, we know that physical and emotional care are necessary for our spiritual care.

As for “Only when a person’s decision harms another is the Church going to say it is wrong…”…that is just plain false. I trust you did not mean it that way.

There is a false dichotomy between “You must do what doctors say” and “You may do as you please.” The Church does not tell us we are obliged to take one particular kind of care. It does tell us we are obliged to care for ourselves. Discernment is ours, but that does not mean we are free to do whatever we please. We are not free to neglect ourselves, nor to seek the care that pleases us most over the care that is most likely to free us to the greatest service of God and neighbor of which we are capable.

Having said that…a person who asks advice should be given the advice, and then left alone. What they do with the advice is up to them to discern. The vast majority of the time, it is no one else’s business.

 

[Fran65]

And you are dead wrong about the Catholic Church teaching that the decision of what treatment a person should take should not be left to the individual…

I did not say that. I said that the *judgement as to whether a disorder was only spiritual in origin *was not to be left to the individual. What makes you think that someone who is spiritually sick or under attack from the Evil one retains good judgement and does not need the help of others to discern the root and the treatment of their illness? The catechism is very clear on this point when considering exorcism.

When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing. In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness. CCC 1673

The bold sections are my emphasis.

I believe in the person’s right to choose or reject treatment. We all have a conscience, and many of us have the intellect to make decisions. I was questioning some of your and other posters’ statements and correcting generalised untruths about psychology and psychiatry.

Man tends by nature toward the truth. He is obliged to honor and bear witness to it: “It is in accordance with their dignity that all men, because they are persons . . . are both impelled by their nature and bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth once they come to know it and direct their whole lives in accordance with the demands of truth.” CCC 2467

Karen

 

[elts1956]

You make a distinction betwen “psycholigal disturbances” and spiritual ones… I don’t… (at least as concerns my own issues). I look at a person as a whole being… and so does God. The emotions, the intellect, the spirit are all what combine to make a person who s/he is… and should not always be separated out as doctors and others do…

And you are dead wrong about the Catholic Church teaching that the decision of what treatment a person should take should not be left to the individual…

This sounds like Big Brother… Like “Oh… you think you should do this? Well, these other “professionals” here think otherwise… and we are professionals so our opinion counts…so you have to do what we say…”

Baloney… The Church (not to mention our U.S Constitution) believes in people having the freedom to decide things in their lives for themselves… Only when a person’s decision harms another is the Church going to say it is wrong…

You are right Distracted, we all have the freedom to do what is best for ourselves, but did you ever hear that a Doctor who is ill never treats s/himself? You have been given advice. Take it, or leave it, but do drop it. You have given your reasons for not listening.

 

[distracted]

You are right Distracted, we all have the freedom to do what is best for ourselves, but did you ever hear that a Doctor who is ill never treats s/himself? You have been given advice. Take it, or leave it, but do drop it. You have given your reasons for not listening.

i just totally don’t get it…

Where in this Post did i ever say i needed any “help”…???

That ungodly-acting priest implied that i did… Big deal. I dont respect his opinion when (# 1 reason) he doesn’t know me from Adam…

I wish people on these forums would just quit assuming things…

 

[elts1956]

i just totally don’t get it…

Where in this Post did i ever say i needed any “help”…???

That ungodly-acting priest implied that i did… Big deal. I dont respect his opinion when (# 1 reason) he doesn’t know me from Adam…

I wish people on these forums would just quit assuming things…

Whatever.

 

[strugglingalong]

I did not say that. I said that the *judgement as to whether a disorder was only spiritual in origin *was not to be left to the individual. What makes you think that someone who is spiritually sick or under attack from the Evil one retains good judgement and does not need the help of others to discern the root and the treatment of their illness? The catechism is very clear on this point when considering exorcism.

The bold sections are my emphasis.

I believe in the person’s right to choose or reject treatment. We all have a conscience, and many of us have the intellect to make decisions. I was questioning some of your and other posters’ statements and correcting generalised untruths about psychology and psychiatry.

Karen

I had made some comments to that effect. My point was that even within psychology/psychiatry itself there are fierce debates about what is organic and what is not, what is biological and what is not. The majority of psychologists/psychiatrists are firm materialists, meaning they reject the existence of a soul and believe all we have is a material body. The conclusion? Every abnormal behavior and occurrence is then a biological problem because, well, what else can it be if all we are is matter?

My point is that we need to watch out for that because the medical model will drive these “specialists” to always resort to medication. If you’re sad or angry or down or too up they figure that abnormality is biological in nature since the vast majority do not admit of the soul.

My point was that - not even thinking of demonic possession - our soul can in and of itself change the biological makeup of the body since we know the soul and body are fused and cannot be considered as two separate principles.

Too often the “easy way” of medication is taken instead of looking at the person’s lifestyle and thought processes and experience that may be causing what appears as a “mental disorder.”

We need to be very aware of these things because these professionals are often involved in moral decisions and commenting on the moral aspect of individual lives. I know quite a few people who are or have been taking anti-depressants, for example, and all of them do not seem like themselves. Yes, it makes them ore calm and less sad but it also mutes their emotions at the same time. All of them, as far as I can tell, have reasons why they are struggling with depression - past experiences or hurts or what have you. Those are things that can be worked through so this person can be whole again, complete with emotional vitality.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[distracted]

Whatever.

there you go - assuming again…

 

[distracted]

I had made some comments to that effect. My point was that even within psychology/psychiatry itself there are fierce debates about what is organic and what is not, what is biological and what is not. The majority of psychologists/psychiatrists are firm materialists, meaning they reject the existence of a soul and believe all we have is a material body. The conclusion? Every abnormal behavior and occurrence is then a biological problem because, well, what else can it be if all we are is matter?

My point is that we need to watch out for that because the medical model will drive these “specialists” to always resort to medication. If you’re sad or angry or down or too up they figure that abnormality is biological in nature since the vast majority do not admit of the soul.

My point was that - not even thinking of demonic possession - our soul can in and of itself change the biological makeup of the body since we know the soul and body are fused and cannot be considered as two separate principles.

Too often the “easy way” of medication is taken instead of looking at the person’s lifestyle and thought processes and experience that may be causing what appears as a “mental disorder.”

We need to be very aware of these things because these professionals are often involved in moral decisions and commenting on the moral aspect of individual lives. I know quite a few people who are or have been taking anti-depressants, for example, and all of them do not seem like themselves. Yes, it makes them ore calm and less sad but it also mutes their emotions at the same time. All of them, as far as I can tell, have reasons why they are struggling with depression - past experiences or hurts or what have you. Those are things that can be worked through so this person can be whole again, complete with emotional vitality.

Pax Christi tecum.

wow… i really appreciated reading this…

i would have posted some of it myself… except that i was kind of … (shall i say??) depressed or at least annoyed at some posters’ comments… i know i shouldn’t let things bother me to the point of… not wanting to bother replying… and usually i don’t… but i guess i am going through a lot of “new” stuff lately, don’t know which direction to take… which brings me back to the point(s) you make in your post.

I totally agree that a lot of psych dr.s are focused on the biological, the material aspects of a problem… and of course, that would explain them wanting to always resort to meds… & i know someone on meds also (anti-depressants). He was so impossible 4 me to deal with that i finally had to say 'Goodbye, at least as far as being very close like we once were. I have no way of knowing if it was the meds or what… didn’t know him before he was on them… but i didn’t see where they were doing him much good… and now that i think about it… maybe he was… as you say… his emotions were “muted”. (By the way: Could you explain exactly waht you mean by “muting”… I kinda think i get it but not sure…)…

All i know is the guy i know on meds doesn’t seem very considerate of others’ feelings… & maybe he is not in tune iwth his own.

Anyway… another thing a lot of people forget is that even dr.s dont know much about the meds they prescribe… the side-effects, etc…
I don’t even think the drug co. know much. and of course, it is also true that only God knows everything about everything…

anyway, God bless…

 

[juliamajor]

As Father Benedict Groeschel always say- “take your medicine- even if you think you’re better”

 

[distracted]

As Father Benedict Groeschel always say- “take your medicine- even if you think you’re better”

yea but Fr. Groeschel was never one of my favorites…

so i don’t have to listen to him…

 

[distracted]

As Father Benedict Groeschel always say- “take your medicine- even if you think you’re better”

i think i will listen to Jesus. He told me not to take meds…

 

[EasterJoy]

i think i will listen to Jesus. He told me not to take meds…

I think He’ll also tell you that if you quit replying, this thread will fade away.

As a parting comment, though, you might want to see if your local library has this volume:
The Loss of Sadness: How Psychiatry Transformed Normal Sorrow into Depressive Disorder,
by Allan V. Horwitz and Jerome C. Wakefield

It is a very interesting take on the history of the diagnosis guidelines for clinical depression.
A psychiatric nurse recommended it to me, and I learned a lot from it, and not just about depression.

May you find your confessor, and all blessings to you…

 

[distracted]

IThe Loss of Sadness: How Psychiatry Transformed Normal Sorrow into Depressive Disorder,
by Allan V. Horwitz and Jerome C. Wakefield

It is a very interesting take on the history of the diagnosis guidelines for clinical depression.

May you find your confessor, and all blessings to you…

thank you. I would probably need to go to a big city library to find it… & not near one at this time…

sounds interesting, though… VERY.

I don’t know… Drugs just scare me… i don’t like the idea of my mind being altered artificially…

I prefer to use coffee… and chocolate…

but now that i think about it… i have something othe than coffee… to alter my mind and heart and soul… the Rosary… and the blessed Sacrament…

Best “drugs” available…

 

[juliamajor]

I know the man- and I know of his goodness and sanctity- but you should listen to your confessor.-.you said Jesus never makes you depressed- well God created the world , humans and and the universe-if everything else besides Jesus depresses you then it’s a problem.God didn’t make the world or people to depress you- but to aid and help us. sure there is evil and darkness- but if that’s all that you see- then that’s a problem.As St teresa of Avila said - we are God’s hands and feet on earth. We should not only look to God but to those that God sends our way to aid us. It’s like the old joke about the the guy on the roof of his house during a flood. ok- this guy is on the roof and a guy with a car comes by"come down before the flood gets worse ! we can get out now!" chap on the roof says’ i have faith! I know My Lord will save me. Water gets higher-the guy goes higher up the roof.then the firemen in the rowboat comes by. “come on ’ says the fireman” the flood is getting worse- get out while you can!" roofman says"I have faith I know that God will save me!" the Flood water is all the way up to the tippy top of the roof. a helicopter comes by-" this is your last chance- the flood is outta control- you gotta go now!" well the man on the roof guy says “I have faith-I know the Lord will save me. well the flood gets worse- the man drowns and he comes before God. “My Lord, I had faith in you- you let me down - you didn’t help me!” God says " what do you mean-? I sent a car ,a boat and a helicopter!” people can help you - not just weigh you down-people can be sent by God to aid you and set you on a path you don’t see but need to see. doctors can be touched by God and used as His vehicle. actually anyone can -and sanctity has nothing to do with it. God chooses who He chooses. Your ears and heart have to be open to discern God’s will and God’s aid. Christ’s peace be with You:thumbsup:

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Amen. Also, when I can’t sleep at night, I just recite the Lord’s Prayer over and over and I go right back to sleep.

Also I love this:
“Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ. For the Kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.”

There is nothing more comforting than the love of God.

 

[distracted]

Amen. Also, when I can’t sleep at night, I just recite the Lord’s Prayer over and over and I go right back to sleep.

Also I love this:
“Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ. For the Kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.”

There is nothing more comforting than the love of God.

amen… i used to sleep in this chapel in a hospital… most amazing sleep i ever had becaue Jesus was There (Blessed Sacramnet)…
That kind of blessing is no longer available to me… & I am spoiled becaue now nothing but that really, totally… does much for me… (words are failing me…).

i hope you spend a lot of time There… (?)

God bless…

 

[distracted]

I know the man- and I know of his goodness and sanctity- but you should listen to your confessor.-

Why do people insist on me listening to someone that #1) i don’t call “my confessor” by a long shot. I didn’t know this priest from the man in the moon and vice versa… and he was rude and un-Christian. would you call such a person your confessor??

you said Jesus never makes you depressed- well God created the world , humans and and the universe-if everything else besides Jesus depresses you then it’s a problem.

where did i say everything but Jesus depresses me???

God didn’t make the world or people to depress you-

thanks for that newsflash…

I sent a car ,a boat and a helicopter!"

people use that helicopter story too much… I don’t feel it applies to me because i am doing something about my “problesm” (which is life in general… i relly have only 1 or 2 problems that most others do not have… the rest is waht is common to all humans on Earth)… I don’t subscribe to the notion that we humans should do whatever is in our power to do to make this world a veritable Heaven on Earth. Generally speaking, I believe in accepting things as they are unless to do so involves sin… (and don’t go jumping on me about this ssstatement… I already know there are a ton of things that could be added to it…)

people can be sent by God to aid you and set you on a path you don’t see but need to see.

this is not alwys the case. Someone would have to go through almost exactly what i am going thorugh or have been thorugh in order to understand me enough to be able to help. yes, peole have helped me just by being supportive… but sometimes i feel lonelier telling these people my biggest problems becaue they just do not understand… have never been through anything like it…

doctors can be touched by God and used as His vehicle. actually anyone can -and sanctity has nothing to do with it. God chooses who He chooses. Your ears and heart have to be open to discern God’s will and God’s aid. Christ’s peace be with You:thumbsup:

no doctor can begin to understand a person’s soul… Even the person him or herself does not fathom it… Jesus and Jesus alone can do that…

Thanks for the encouraging words at the end… God bless…

 

[strugglingalong]

but i didn’t see where they were doing him much good… and now that i think about it… maybe he was… as you say… his emotions were “muted”. (By the way: Could you explain exactly waht you mean by “muting”… I kinda think i get it but not sure…)…

By muted, I mean that they tend to lack extreme depressed emotions but also normal sad emotions; they tend to lack extreme happy emotions as well as normal happy emotions. They are neither sad nor happy. They just are sort of muted, in the middle. Nothing makes them much happy. Nothing makes them much sad. I’ve seen this time and again. I’ve spoken to people who took SSRI’s or other psychotropics to deal with depression who said that nothing could move them, that someone could say there was a fire in the building and they wouldn’t be too concerned.

God has given us emotions so we can experience sorrow as He did in the Garden of Gethsemani and so we can experience true joy of the Resurrection. Yes, in this valley of tears we’ll have intense sorrow at times - Our Lord Himself experienced a “sorrow unto death” in the Garden, and want servant can expect anything more than his Master? - and great joy too. God wants us to be truly alive, fully alive.

All i know is the guy i know on meds doesn’t seem very considerate of others’ feelings… & maybe he is not in tune iwth his own.

The drugs do interfere with the emotions so that could be a part of it for sure.

Anyway… another thing a lot of people forget is that even dr.s dont know much about the meds they prescribe… the side-effects, etc…
I don’t even think the drug co. know much. and of course, it is also true that only God knows everything about everything…

anyway, God bless…

Yes, the doctors don’t know even how these drugs work. They may see serotonin levels increasing but they don’t know how nor do they know the effects of prolonged exposure to these drugs (such as the appearance of SSRI Syndrome whereby people basically couldn’t adjust to being off the drugs).

Pax Christi tecum.