Priests more into psychology than Jesus..

[EasterJoy]

What I am saying, though, is that while a drug may give a desired result - i.e. the patient keeps appoints and does what he is supposed to do - that doesn’t mean the drug is good nor does it mean that the person could not have come to do those things without it. I am not talking just pure will power here. I am talking a person realizing their need for God, their inability do it themselves and their need for grace. What you describe sounds more like a fallen human being than a person with a mental disorder.

And AA does realize this in calling each person to recognize their need for a “high Power.”

Pax Christi tecum.

What I am saying, though, is that while a drug may give a desired result - i.e. the patient keeps appoints and does what he is supposed to do - that doesn’t mean the drug is good nor does it mean that the person could not have come to do those things without it. I am not talking just pure will power here. I am talking a person realizing their need for God, their inability do it themselves and their need for grace. What you describe sounds more like a fallen human being than a person with a mental disorder.

And AA does realize this in calling each person to recognize their need for a “high Power.”

Pax Christi tecum.

But you’re taking about the will here and at times moral decisions. If a person continually fails in what they should do, we shouldn’t necessarily say they need a drug. They may need to persevere, work on understanding God’s mercy more and work on growing in their spiritual life. If you were talking about only confused thoughts, hearing things, etc. then I can see but when we start to talk about moral issues or just decision making, I wonder…

Pax Christi tecum.

I don’t think you understand what psychiatric drugs are intended to do. A lot of people don’t, including some people who try them.

There isn’t a drug that makes you want to get out of bed and go to work every single day of your life. There isn’t a drug that will keep you from turning on the ballgame when what you should be doing is cleaning out the garage.

There are drugs that will allow you to see that your life is worth living, when you were in a physical state where you could no more see that than you could see through walls. Having the ability–not the experience, but the ability–to see that life is worth living is the normal functioning of the human body. It is totally desirable that there be medications that can restore the physical component of that ability when it has been lost.

There are also drugs that can take a person with ADD and give them the ability–not the desire, the ability–to focus on a task. You cannot give a person with ADD a drug that will cure them by itself. It only provides the physical basis they need in order to learn how to pull off the activities of daily life in a reliable manner. They still have to actually decide to do it, by an act of will, just like everybody else.

Again…a person who has these problems cannot assume their problem is physical. It may not be. But if the problem has not responded to sustained and honest effort, if, for instance, a child has been placed in a structured environment, given not just the tools that a normal child needs but the extra structure that a person with ADD needs, and still they can’t get it together enough to learn–then there comes a time when the option of psychiatric intervention is worth exploring.

Don’t get me wrong. Prescription medications have side-effects and draw-backs. If they can be done without, so much the better. But they do have their place, and they’re not a crutch or an excuse. A patient who thinks they are is in for a rude awakening.

 

[strugglingalong]

I don’t think you understand what psychiatric drugs are intended to do. A lot of people don’t, including some people who try them.

There isn’t a drug that makes you want to get out of bed and go to work every single day of your life. There isn’t a drug that will keep you from turning on the ballgame when what you should be doing is cleaning out the garage.

There are drugs that will allow you to see that your life is worth living, when you were in a physical state where you could no more see that than you could see through walls. Having the ability–not the experience, but the ability–to see that life is worth living is the normal functioning of the human body. It is totally desirable that there be medications that can restore the physical component of that ability when it has been lost.

There are also drugs that can take a person with ADD and give them the ability–not the desire, the ability–to focus on a task. You cannot give a person with ADD a drug that will cure them by itself. It only provides the physical basis they need in order to learn how to pull off the activities of daily life in a reliable manner. They still have to actually decide to do it, by an act of will, just like everybody else.

Again…a person who has these problems cannot assume their problem is physical. It may not be. But if the problem has not responded to sustained and honest effort, if, for instance, a child has been placed in a structured environment, given not just the tools that a normal child needs but the extra structure that a person with ADD needs, and still they can’t get it together enough to learn–then there comes a time when the option of psychiatric intervention is worth exploring.

Don’t get me wrong. Prescription medications have side-effects and draw-backs. If they can be done without, so much the better. But they do have their place, and they’re not a crutch or an excuse. A patient who thinks they are is in for a rude awakening.

Right, and I think I agree. That’s probably the sound way to look at it all. However I do think there are a vast number who do not, who look at these medications as a means of evolution of the race, who see them as a way to perfect human beings apart from God and who think every little difficulty is a biological problem. I’m not saying that some don’t but I definitely think the same Dennet’s and these guys who subscribe to an ideology have a different approach. That is what I am most wary of out there. I think it is that approach that pushes these drugs as a solution to every difficult and problem, seeing them all as biological.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Fran65]

It denies the existence - or can deny the existence - of original sin, fallen humanity and the fact that people simply make their choices…

Some psychiatrists, psychologists and other types of clinicians deny this…but not all. I agree with you, it is a problem.

The problem is whether things evolved per se but there are many - very many - who see evolution as an ideology spanning everything from material generation to morality to anything else… there are a lot of people - a lot - who have an ideology attached to it - they want to disprove God, they want to improve humanity by their own ingenuity, they want to control what we’ve said only is to be governed by God. That is a problem…

I agree with this point too.

Because the study I noted is a psychiatrist saying that we can and should use medication as a means to morality, as a means for people to act as they should. That is highly problematic. …

I agree.

… it is difficult to ascertain when someone has a legitimate biological problem or is at their own fault. .

Absolutely, but there are ways of determining responsibility. You can look at other behaviours e.g. someone who says they are too sick to work may be going out socialising, someone who says they have incapacitating obsessions may be able to control it to do stuff they ‘want’ to do, someone on the verge of dying of starvation may be ‘able to eat a little’ after all. I also think that as Catholics we should try to think the best of our brothers and sisters, and adopt a charitable explanation of behaviour until proved otherwise.

Perhaps you can explain how the nervous system governs behavior? For those who are out of right reason I can see how that is involved but not sure with the nervous system.

I didn’t understand the last sentence, but am sure its a typo. And you’re right to call me on that. I can’t explain it and actually don’t believe that behaviour is *completely determined *biologically. I would not be a good Catholic if I did, I would be a materialist, which I’m not.

Suggesting that we can and should medicate to produce moral behaviour is problematic and faulty. It takes away our God given free will and treats people as less than human, just biological machines. Peter Kramer wrote a book called Listening to Prozac which talks about medicating personality, he coined the term cosmetic psychopharmacology which is also common. But, prozac is useful for those with genuine clinical depression. We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water - but I don’t think you’re suggesting that.

The impression that I have is that actually you and I agree struggling, where we differ is in the prevalence we ascribe to mental illness. In truth, I think spiritual sickness is far and away more common, it manifests itself in many people who are viewed as the secular epitome of health and wellbeing!

Easter Joy, excellent post.

God Bless

 

[strugglingalong]

The impression that I have is that actually you and I agree struggling, where we differ is in the prevalence we ascribe to mental illness. In truth, I think spiritual sickness is far and away more common, it manifests itself in many people who are viewed as the secular epitome of health and wellbeing!

Yes, I agree with that estimation. Thanks for the thoughtful post! I agree with it and I think you make many really good points.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[EasterJoy]

Right, and I think I agree. That’s probably the sound way to look at it all. However I do think there are a vast number who do not, who look at these medications as a means of evolution of the race, who see them as a way to perfect human beings apart from God and who think every little difficulty is a biological problem. I’m not saying that some don’t but I definitely think the same Dennet’s and these guys who subscribe to an ideology have a different approach. That is what I am most wary of out there. I think it is that approach that pushes these drugs as a solution to every difficult and problem, seeing them all as biological.

Pax Christi tecum.

You are right about this: many people think life is a problem to be cured. That is a terrible misconception under which to labor! I wish you were wrong, but a certain wariness is in order with many medical professionals. Some want to think they can cure real life.

I have had a psychiatric nurse tell me that many people want to medicate away life’s normal sadnesses, and the difficulties which actually give life some of its beauty. So not all professionals think that they’re a replacement for God, or a spiritual life. Those professionals who have a good idea of what they can and can’t do are the ones to look for!

 

[distracted]

I think it is like when people eat what they shouldn’t and then wonder, “Gee, why do I feel so bad? I must be picking the flu up somewhere. I bet their hygiene is bad at that restaurant. I’ll change restaurants.” They don’t want to admit that their misery may be due to their own choices.

Likewise, life can be judged to be lousy because “I’m unlucky about who I date”, because “men are users”, because “I can’t buy all the happy-happy stuff on TV”, because “I can’t ‘get laid’”. They can’t bring themselves to imagine that there is a big God-shaped cavern in the middle of them that nothing else is going to fill, particularly not if they bought a poor imitation of God that somebody in their past tried to peddle to them.

Or, they watch too much TV and can’t accept the idea that life is hard. So when it turns out that life is hard, they try to self-medicate the difficulty with sex or stuff or alcohol or work or, yes, get someone else to medicate them with psychiatric care. It isn’t just the doctors who push the idea that there is a pill to cure life.

very well said… kinda forgot some of that for some reason… while i was writing… Well, i didn’t forget exactly…

But i guess that is the problem also… people forget things… They may go a long time in between “relationships” because they have learned a few things from the last one… but then, time goes by, they get lonely… they start feeling like… that they are missing out… etc… & they start fooling themselves all over again…

It is so horrible being human…

I’ve been celibate for a long time… but my “feelings” did not evaporate into thin air never to return… in fact, my feelings toward some of the opposite sex seem to be even stronger than ever… probably because i know better the love of God now… but one thing i will never forget is how devastating it is when someone you love (whether romatic of otherwise)… is not there anymore… so i know i will probably be celibate for the rest of my life…

:harp:

 

[EasterJoy]

very well said… kinda forgot some of that for some reason… while i was writing… Well, i didn’t forget exactly…

But i guess that is the problem also… people forget things… They may go a long time in between “relationships” because they have learned a few things from the last one… but then, time goes by, they get lonely… they start feeling like… that they are missing out… etc… & they start fooling themselves all over again…

It is so horrible being human…

I’ve been celibate for a long time… but my “feelings” did not evaporate into thin air never to return… in fact, my feelings toward some of the opposite sex seem to be even stronger than ever… probably because i know better the love of God now… but one thing i will never forget is how devastating it is when someone you love (whether romatic of otherwise)… is not there anymore… so i know i will probably be celibate for the rest of my life…

:harp:

You know what, sometimes I think that it is best to tend to today, and just the planning for tomorrow that falls on today’s to-do list, and leave the rest of life, past and present, to God. I tell my kids to look at the Cross, and know that, if we are faithful, God can take the worst thing in the world and transform it into the best thing in the world. We never know what He’ll do next!

Easier said than done, though!
Still, even trying to do that some of the time leaves us a little less exhausted by things we can’t change and a little more open to God’s surprises. It is God’s surprises that change the horribles into wonderfuls.

 

[distracted]

Easier said than done, though!
and a little more open to God’s surprises. It is God’s surprises that change the horribles into wonderfuls.

how very true…

hmm… i am thinking abuot how so many things in my life have gone from wonderful to horrible… but then… i have to remember that the “horribles” again turn into “wonderfuls”…

(Is God trying to drive us nuts?? )

 

[EasterJoy]

how very true…

hmm… i am thinking abuot how so many things in my life have gone from wonderful to horrible… but then… i have to remember that the “horribles” again turn into “wonderfuls”…

(Is God trying to drive us nuts?? )

I think God is getting us used to Heaven! They drive with their hands on the steering wheel, but no white knuckles!

(Just imagine a place where everyone on the road actually knew how to drive!
Aahh…it is peaceful just to think about it, isn’t it? )

 

[distracted]

I think God is getting us used to Heaven!

i first started learning about Heaven by praying the rosary… Then i learned even more about Heaven through freuqent Mass attendance…

Now I dislike the world more than ever…

Jesus has spoiled me…

(Just imagine a place where everyone on the road actually knew how to drive!
)

That wouldn’t be the state i happen to live in… Yikes!!!

 

[EasterJoy]

Just imagine a place where everyone on the road actually knew how to drive!
Aahh…it is peaceful just to think about it, isn’t it?

That wouldn’t be the state i happen to live in… Yikes!!!

Ah, well. Being reminded that you could die any day without prior notice isn’t a bad spiritual exercise, either!

It is like I tell my kids: we have the Crucifix on the wall to remind us that, God can take the worst thing that ever happened and make it into the best thing that ever happened. All He asks is that we put our trust in Him, and remain faithful to what He’s asked.

 

[EasterJoy]

It is like I tell my kids: we have the Crucifix on the wall to remind us that, God can take the worst thing that ever happened and make it into the best thing that ever happened. All He asks is that we put our trust in Him, and remain faithful to what He’s asked.

Twice in one thread…well, I do tell my kids that a lot! There is a reason that we Catholics keep the corpus on the Cross, and hang those crucifixes all over the place. Life is hard, and God doesn’t make it the easiest for those He loves the best. Far from it. But joy and difficulty aren’t mutually exclusive, not with God. “They go out, full of tears, carrying seed for the sowing. They come back, full of song, carrying their sheaves.”

So, distracted, maybe God just has a bit more demonstration of His glory intended for you than he does for some the rest of us…at least for now.

Hang in there!

 

[Fran65]

Ah, well. Being reminded that you could die any day without prior notice isn’t a bad spiritual exercise, either!

That’s been my experience. My Faith is much stronger since being diagnosed with a sudden death syndrome. It also led to my saying the Rosary daily having read the 15 promises of Mary.

 

[dessert]

That’s been my experience. My Faith is much stronger since being diagnosed with a sudden death syndrome. It also led to my saying the Rosary daily having read the 15 promises of Mary.

Do you stop breathing while sleeping? I do but have not a had any diagnosis for it just snore loudly alot. I tend to hyper ventilate when awake but can control that with deep breathing and relaxation prayer. What type of doctor did you see to get help?

 

[Fran65]

Hi Barbara,

No, I don’t have sleep apnea. I have a very rare heart condition that means that stress, stimulants and exercise can cause my heart to develop a very dangerous heart rhythm and then stop.

I see a cardiologist and have a device implanted (ICD) which should restart my heart if it stops.

God Bless

Catholic Convert 1984!

 

[distracted]

we have the Crucifix on the wall to remind us that, God can take the worst thing that ever happened and make it into the best thing that ever happened. All He asks is that we put our trust in Him, and remain faithful to what He’s asked.

Thanks for that reminder… I always forget this kind of thing… because i come from a whole family of negative people… and it is, therefore, difficult not being negative… and not thinking of the cross far more often than thinking of the wonderful things the cross leads to…

 

[distracted]

God doesn’t make it the easiest for those He loves the best. Far from it.

hmmm… by this logic… God loves me more than just about anyone…

joy and difficulty aren’t mutually exclusive, not with God. “They go out, full of tears, carrying seed for the sowing. They come back, full of song, carrying their sheaves.”

so true…

So, distracted, maybe God just has a bit more demonstration of His glory intended for you than he does for some the rest of us…at least for now.

Hang in there!

wow… i am glad someone thinks so… Sometimes i feel like the most awful-est sinner in the world…

(i know i am not… but feelings don’t always agree with thoughts or head knowlege… My heart and my head are always ARGUING )

 

[EasterJoy]

hmmm… by this logic… God loves me more than just about anyone…

so true…

wow… i am glad someone thinks so… Sometimes i feel like the most awful-est sinner in the world…

(i know i am not… but feelings don’t always agree with thoughts or head knowlege… My heart and my head are always ARGUING )

I don’t remember if it was St. Theresa of Avila or who, but one of the saints remarked on a particularly trying day, “Lord, if this is how you treat your friends, it isn’t hard to see why you have so many enemies!” This is the way it seems when we have a hard time accepting the difficult realities.

I am beginning to think that the hardest thing to accept is our total dependence on God. We keep running up against reminders that we are powerless without God, that God’s way works and our way doesn’t, and we don’t like it, not one little bit.

We are nothing without God, but what of it? It is not a thing to beat ourselves up about, but a thing to rejoice in! We were never meant to be without God in the first place!

God does intend to demonstrate his glory through you, distracted, of that you may be sure. How will God choose to do that, and when? I don’t know. Maybe like he did with the ones who needed a conversion of heart or were blind and made to see, maybe like the ones who had to endure sufferings they could not change and had no responsibility for, the ones both known and hidden who won the crown of martyrdom, maybe like the ones in the Gospel that came to him and asked for help and were bidden, “Take up your mat, and walk”. We aren’t even sure that the young rich man who went away sad did not come to his senses eventually and answer the call to trade in his worthless trinkets for the pearl of great price, to trade false security for the real kind. But in all these things, God changed the false for the true, and the sorrowful into the joyful. For that reason, our hope can be joyful, even as we wait. God will not give us a snake when we ask for a fish. God will care for us, and as Master of the Universe, his will won’t be thwarted in the end.

Always be willing to humble yourself to do what God asks, whether it offends your pride or scares you or even when it delights you. Listen, listen, listen, trust, trust, trust, and when you fall, take the hand up that is always offered. Dare to be joyful! You won’t go wrong.

 

[distracted]

I
I am beginning to think that the hardest thing to accept is our total dependence on God. We keep running up against reminders that we are powerless without God, that God’s way works and our way doesn’t, and we don’t like it, not one little bit.

for sure… and the more un-Christian behavior you have seen or been victim of… the harder it is to… do God’s will in some ways… For instance, my family is not very loving, to say the least. they love ea other but don’t show it… AT ALL! they back-bite, etc… For them to change and be loving would be torture for them… & seem impossible… I know because i have struggled this way… (the apples doesn’t fall far from the tree ). anyway… i never used to question how i related to certain difficult people… thought i was doing just great with the Lord just in staying out of their way… but lately i have been wondering if i need to be… well… somehow different… & it scares me to think that i am not doing what God wants with certain people… but at least i am open to seeing that i am not right… that’s a start…

We were never meant to be without God in the first place!

So true… though we damaged people always think that we are not good enough for Him… when we sin, we feel that way even more… becaues some of us don’t know unconditional (human) love… but its just a cross… and eveyrone has one of those…

God does intend to demonstrate his glory through you, distracted, of that you may be sure.

yes, i have had this shown to me… He has done “interesting” things through this lowly, inept vessel…

maybe like the ones who had to endure sufferings they could not change and had no responsibility for,

one good thing about what i have gone through and the ptsd it caused… is that i now have far more compassion for others who have been through the same kinds of things… When i was young, i didn’t have much concern for what others went through… Now i tell myself that i don’t know anyone… don’t even have a simple clue… You surely can not, as the saying goes, judge a book by its cover…

the ones both known and hidden who won the crown of martyrdom,

There are all kinds of martydoms… i have learned… just doing what Jesus asks when we don’t want to… is a big martyrdom… (sometimes)… although there is always a reward for doing the right thing…

. God will not give us a snake when we ask for a fish. God will care for us, and as Master of the Universe, his will won’t be thwarted in the end.

.

thank you so much for your comforting words…

although i don’t believe them…

just kidding… i think…

 

[EasterJoy]

thank you so much for your comforting words…

although i don’t believe them…

just kidding… i think…

If the words are a comfort, I’m pleased about that, but if not, then don’t worry about that. It is Jesus who is your comfort, after all. All the rest of us can do is point to him for you, or be willing to get out of the way.

To get back to your original point: if your confessor is Jesus for you, then you’re set. I attended a seminar in which the priest went so far as to say that if the confessor will not show mercy, you should not feel you have to stick around to finish the confession! Still, the absolution still has its effect, even when the experience has human frailties thrown in to muddy things.

As long as you aren’t seeking a confessor simply to find someone who will tell you what you want to hear, you do no wrong in seeking a different confessor. You don’t need any excuse or reason, save that examination of conscience uncovers no intent to evade God’s will…and even that doesn’t tether you to a particular confessor, but corrects your course in finding someone who is right for you.

Good luck, and God bless you!