Priests with Wedding Rings

[ConstantineTG]

I’m still concerned about the divorce issue. Exactly what would happen in this case? For instance, if the wife insists on a divorce and wants to remarry? Or worse yet, when the priest wants to divorce.

Would a divorced priest be able to validly celebrate the Mass?

A priest’s sin does not affect his ability to celebrate Mass.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I suppose if the priest became divorced, he might no longer be able to continue on actively in that capacity. By the way, who will be paying for the alimony?

Diocesan priests are paid a salary and own their own property. Thus they have their own bank accounts with their own money.

My one thought on the subject is, “Let’s keep celibacy and not deal with it!”

Think about it. Fr. gets divorced, because he and his wife are at “different places in their lives.” This happens every year in the general society, after all.

He then gets remarried, has kids with the new lady.

He is now in what amounts to a permanent state of sin, but he remains a priest.

What would that do to those he counsels for marriage? To the kids he teaches CCD to?

And what would the Church incur all this trouble for? To surmount a temporary priest shortage? To address a totally unrelated church scandal?

I pray that the dissidents are not listened to for a LONG time.

ICXC NIKA.

A priest cannot remarry. Anyone in Holy Orders cannot marry. So any priest who is married, gets divorced, then attempts to remarry would face sanctions for the fact that he attempts to marry after he received Holy Orders.

 

[roads152]

Sheadad wrote: “The priest’s faithfulness to the sacramental seal of confession is separate from the bond that he shares with a spouse. The seal is first and foremost a respect for the reconciliation of man to God, therefore it’s not something you mess with. That respect calls for secrecy and by it’s critical nature is something that just remains separated from a married priest’s life. He will be obligated to keep personal that which is between Man and God and that which is personal between he and his wife.”

So “faithfulness to the sacramental seal of confession” and the “bond” that a man “shares with a spouse” are “separate.” What logical argument can be forwarded for putting those two on the shoulders of one man?
Are you somehow proposing a double personality for our priests?

rick43235, allow me, please, to remind you that the military service is an occupation that one either retires from or leaves out due to discharge or untimely death. It cannot be equated with Priesthood which is a vocation and outlives earthly life itself. Moreover, the commitment of a military man is to human institution while that of the priest is to God.
Logically, a greater commitment entails a greater requirement and dignity.
Are we, now, ready to set aside a portion of the dignity of the priesthood in our Church?

 

[laszlo]

So “faithfulness to the sacramental seal of confession” and the “bond” that a man “shares with a spouse” are “separate.” What logical argument can be forwarded for putting those two on the shoulders of one man?
Are you somehow proposing a double personality for our priests?

I do not see any contradiction. Eastern Churches bear this duality since 2000 years w.o any problem w/o diminishing the bond with their wives.

And the principle is, that a little imperfect reality is more that a perfect dream. The reality is that the number of US priest will be diminished within a few decades to 12,000 from the recent 40,000 unless something radically changes.

The Easter Churches in Central Europe where they are allowed to marry before ordination has no problems with vocations, only with episcopal vocations (only unmarried priest can be bishop)

 

[Sarika]

I hope you meant that as a joke. Comments like that make us look pretty lame IMHO. Just like Protestants the preacher will be the one paying for the alimony I presume, otherwise the children will be paying for the rest of it with their lives.

I wasn’t kidding. The 'preacher"s (?) salary comes from the diocese , and that money comes from the collection plate.
And the salary is VERY small.

 

[Sarika]

Question: Isn’t there some kind of rule pertaining to married priests in the Byzantine or Ukrainian rites? Something like, they have to be married BEFORE seminary/ordination, and ( if single) once ordained, cannot marry thereafter? Am I remembering this correctly? And also, isn’t it true that the Bishops are chosen from those who are not, and never have been, married?
Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[GEddie]

I wasn’t kidding. The 'preacher"s (?) salary comes from the diocese , and that money comes from the collection plate.
And the salary is VERY small.

Correct. But that money is his. It is his compensation, although he is paid by the Church.

From it, he has to pay his life expenses.

If he is reckless enough to get stuck with alimony, that too would come out of his paycheck, not from a bailout by the diocese.

Of course, what would then happen if Fr. went bankrupt???

One more (minor) reason for the Church NOT to take the path of priestly families.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Aramis]

I’ve been curious lately about the opinion of fellow Catholics about the proposed reversal of the Church’s stance on priestly celibacy in the wake of the Traditional Anglican Communions and the terrible sex abuse scandal. What are your thoughts? Should married men be considered for candidacy for ordination?

In the last 400 years, there has been no point where the Holy Catholic Church didn’t have married priests. Not since the union with the Ukrainian Orthodox who became the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, in 1590-something.

The permission for the TAC converts is nothing new, either. Rev. Fr. Scott Medlock, a former methodist minister, was ordained a deacon and then a priest after his conversion to the Roman Rite; he’s a functioning Roman Catholic priest.

Further, widowers have been considered valid material for the priesthood for centuries, so long as their children are grown, but not for several years after the death of the spouse. I know a widower ordained a Roman priest.

The Melkite, Ukrainian and Ruthenian churches (all in union with Rome) have some married priests; in the Melkite and Ukrainian, more than unmarried priests.

Have no fear of married priests; they must be married before ordination to the diaconate. They may not remarry without permission from Rome. They are generally good and holy men.

And for reference, only those men ascribed to the Anglican Ordinariate prior to marriange and seminary application will be considered for the married priesthood. The others will be permitted to be ordained only to the diaconate. Much the same way the Ruthenian Catholics handle it… a former Roman is only ordained to the order of Deacon; a cradle Ruthenian may be ordained a Ruthenian Catholic priest whilst married. And at least one such married priest has Roman Rite faculties, as well…

 

[familyof4]

Interesting debate. Out of curiosity, does anyone have any solid, reliable numbers on the following:

of married Catholic priests (not converts, but rather in those rites that allow marriage).​

How are families of those priests supported? Is this a hardship for families? Do their parishioners on the whole express satisfaction with the quality of the ministry of the married priests?

What is the divorce rate for Catholic priests?

Is there a lack of priests in the rites who allow marriage akin to the lack in the Roman rites?

I’m curious about the answers to these questions, because frankly, if other rites are able to have married priests, and the problems that we’re conjecturing do not exist, then perhaps it is time to revisit the idea.

I will say that I have some concept of the time our priests put in each week. I’d hazard to say they’re busy 12+ hours each day, and I think it would be unfair to a spouse or young children to not have their husband/father present. They’re available during office hours, plus they’re involved in ministries in the evenings and on weekends when most working people are available.

 

[EasterJoy]

I know I’ve talked to women married to deacons, and they’ve all thought it was a terrible idea. That says something.

Our pastor growing up was of the opinion that he would hate being “the priest’s kid.” The children need their fathers’ full attention, but not the attention of the whole parish thinking they ought to be “model children”. I also knew a priest who had been a military chaplain. He said the priests were much more free to do their spiritual work than the Protestant ministers who had a family to support and couldn’t afford to lose the job. This is another example of why it is a poor idea to ordain married men before their children are grown.

I could see ordaining men to the priesthood from among those who are now being ordained to the permanent diaconate, but not married men who are younger than that. It is too hard to stay married and be a good parent as it is.

 

[familyof4]

I could see ordaining men to the priesthood from among those who are now being ordained to the permanent diaconate, but not married men who are younger than that. It is too hard to stay married and be a good parent as it is.

This is an interesting idea. Maybe a deacon of 15+ years with no minor children at home? Even if he wasn’t a “full time” priest, he could help with the extra masses on the weekends, confession, and annointing the sick among other duties. These are important duties, and we definitely need more men who can assume the role, but not at the expense of their vocation as a husband and father.

 

[BernadetteM]

It appears that many Catholics have a negative attitude towards priests who are married. I must wonder how many who are so negative have actually belonged to a parish where the Pastor is married or really personally know any of these priests.

One I know personally has a parish of around 3000 and is well loved by all. He also is very involved in the forthcoming Ordinariate and has been a Catholic priest for over 28 years.

I have never heard any complaints made that these married priests are lacking in anyway being a wonderful pastor to their congregations. They all survive on whatever salary they have. Many of the incoming Anglican priests have very large families, one in England has 9 children.

Whether the discipline on celebrate priests will be changed in the future is one no one knows. I place my trust in the Holy Spirit leading our Holy Father in whatever decisions he makes.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[laszlo]

of married Catholic priests (not converts, but rather in those rites that allow marriage).​

How are families of those priests supported? Is this a hardship for families? Do their parishioners on the whole express satisfaction with the quality of the ministry of the married priests?

What is the divorce rate for Catholic priests?

Is there a lack of priests in the rites who allow marriage akin to the lack in the Roman rites?.

In Hungary there are about 200 Greek Catholic priests, one diocese and one eparch. (it may be changed recently) Almost all of them married, a few years ago they expressed concerns about the next bishop, having no eligible unmarried Hungarian priests. Also many of them born into priestly dynasties. At least in several cases the wife is the office manager, and the two salary is enough to raise children. The laity born into this system, and sees no problem in that. In the good old time when I had connections divorce was practically nonexistent, The candidates finished the seminary, before the the ordination received a year sabbatical to decide weather the marry or want to be bishops. Marriages were prepared previously.

I heard rumors that priest divorced and left the priesthood, the number is almost certainly smaller than for the Roman rite, when priest leave the priesthood for marriage.

 

[EasterJoy]

It appears that many Catholics have a negative attitude towards priests who are married. I must wonder how many who are so negative have actually belonged to a parish where the Pastor is married or really personally know any of these priests.

One I know personally has a parish of around 3000 and is well loved by all. He also is very involved in the forthcoming Ordinariate and has been a Catholic priest for over 28 years.

I have never heard any complaints made that these married priests are lacking in anyway being a wonderful pastor to their congregations. They all survive on whatever salary they have. Many of the incoming Anglican priests have very large families, one in England has 9 children.

Whether the discipline on celebrate priests will be changed in the future is one no one knows. I place my trust in the Holy Spirit leading our Holy Father in whatever decisions he makes.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

This isn’t about whether their parishioners love them. It’s about the price paid by their families. In Protestant denominations, the divorce rate is on par with or only a few points lower than the general population in their denominations. That’s a big issue to consider. When Anglican clergy convert and ask for ordination in the Catholic Church, they’ve already sort of answered that issue.

This is an interesting idea. Maybe a deacon of 15+ years with no minor children at home? Even if he wasn’t a “full time” priest, he could help with the extra masses on the weekends, confession, and annointing the sick among other duties. These are important duties, and we definitely need more men who can assume the role, but not at the expense of their vocation as a husband and father.

Oh, no, I mean ordaining some of the married men who are now becoming permanent deacons straight through into the priesthood. They’re now ordained in their late 40s already (if not later), so with the added time in formation they’d have to be allowed to go straight the way through. It’s sort of the same idea as ordaining married men who have been clergy in other denominations. There is a demonstration that their houses are in order and the parties are ready to sign on before taking up the priesthood.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I know I’ve talked to women married to deacons, and they’ve all thought it was a terrible idea. That says something.

Our pastor growing up was of the opinion that he would hate being “the priest’s kid.” The children need their fathers’ full attention, but not the attention of the whole parish thinking they ought to be “model children”. I also knew a priest who had been a military chaplain. He said the priests were much more free to do their spiritual work than the Protestant ministers who had a family to support and couldn’t afford to lose the job. This is another example of why it is a poor idea to ordain married men before their children are grown.

I could see ordaining men to the priesthood from among those who are now being ordained to the permanent diaconate, but not married men who are younger than that. It is too hard to stay married and be a good parent as it is.

Do you think a priest is engaged with parishioners 24/7? Most any secular job would take away a parent’s attention from his/her kids. Why are priests view as any different? Many parents take their work home, get called away for emergencies, etc. You can say the same of doctors that their attention is divided between their patients and their kids. You don’t see people clamoring for celibate doctors.

While I think celibacy is a great thing for the priests, I think its bad for the laity. Obviously there are a ton of misconceptions about a married man becoming a priest.

 

[GEddie]

Do you think a priest is engaged with parishioners 24/7?

Of course not. But very, VERY heavily in demand, nonetheless.

You can say the same of doctors that their attention is divided between their patients and their kids. You don’t see people clamoring for celibate doctors.

Because there are far more doctors than priests, and it’s not because MDs are allowed to have a family. It’s because medicine is perceived as an elite profession, something the priesthood no longer is.

The smaller priesthood is not a tragedy, it’s a natural result of greater social freedom. Until the mid 1900s, the priesthood in Catholic cultures was a potential exit for young men from physical labor, and an entrance into a better life. Today, young men have many life choices available, most of which do not require a fully sacrificial life, as the Church does.

Getting into medical college is extremely competitive. Not so Church formation.

While I think celibacy is a great thing for the priests, I think its bad for the laity. Obviously there are a ton of misconceptions about a married man becoming a priest.

Celibacy is too valuable for its witness to the Gospel, to curtail it solely to correct misconceptions.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

The celibacy discipline has nothig to do with the sex abuse scandals.

(…)

Not sure what you mean by this. Virtually all the men applying for the diaconate are married - at least in my diocese. And the number seems to increase every year of total diaconate candidates.

(…)

In the US there are oven 10,000 permanent deacons almost all married, and the number of their ordinations matches the number of celibate priestly ordinations, Since they are only about 27,000 diocesan celibate priests, and their average age is over 60, soon the number of permanent deacons will exceed the number of priests.

(…)

(…)
Nearly all the deacons I know are married.

I think I got all the posts referring back to me.

I’m well aware that most permanent deacons are married. The numbers Laszlo gave don’t seem to indicate there is a noteable surge in numbers that would suggest that there are enough married men ready and willling to be priests to make the case for married priests in the Roman rite. I’ve read that there is a derth of pastors in non-Catholic traditions so it isn’t just Catholics or that the Church doesn’t allow her priests to marry.

 

[BernadetteM]

This isn’t about whether their parishioners love them. It’s about the price paid by their families. In Protestant denominations, the divorce rate is on par with or only a few points lower than the general population in their denominations. That’s a big issue to consider. When Anglican clergy convert and ask for ordination in the Catholic Church, they’ve already sort of answered that issue.

Oh, no, I mean ordaining some of the married men who are now becoming permanent deacons straight through into the priesthood. They’re now ordained in their late 40s already (if not later), so with the added time in formation they’d have to be allowed to go straight the way through. It’s sort of the same idea as ordaining married men who have been clergy in other denominations. There is a demonstration that their houses are in order and the parties are ready to sign on before taking up the priesthood.

I have never heard of any of these priests within the past 28 years getting a divorce. The reason they are so loved is that they devote their time and lives to the parishioners. Their families are well aware of the sacrifices that they also must make. I see judgement of men who no one actually have any personal experience with, nor with their congregations.

There are many celebate priests who leave for a woman and have been involved with an affair for some time, also some who don’t leave until they are found out, is this better than a married priest who actually dedicates his life to the Church? The Eastern Rite Churches haven’t had serious problems with a married priesthood, this is no different.

I have had experience with both married and celebate priests and have not found any less hours spent in their vocation. I would hope that instead of judging, when a person has the opportunity to actually attend a parish with married clergy and speak to the parishioners, then they have some grounds to judge for themelves if something is lacking.

Bernadette

 

[Aramis]

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the largest of the Eastern Churches in union with Rome, is mostly married priests; about 60-70%. It comprises almost 1% of the faithful of the Catholic Church as a whole. (The Roman Church is about 98% of the faithful. And about 97% of the clergy; the East has significantly more clerics per capita.)

 

[EasterJoy]

I have never heard of any of these priests within the past 28 years getting a divorce. The reason they are so loved is that they devote their time and lives to the parishioners. Their families are well aware of the sacrifices that they also must make. I see judgement of men who no one actually have any personal experience with, nor with their congregations.

There are many celebate priests who leave for a woman and have been involved with an affair for some time, also some who don’t leave until they are found out, is this better than a married priest who actually dedicates his life to the Church? The Eastern Rite Churches haven’t had serious problems with a married priesthood, this is no different.

I have had experience with both married and celebate priests and have not found any less hours spent in their vocation. I would hope that instead of judging, when a person has the opportunity to actually attend a parish with married clergy and speak to the parishioners, then they have some grounds to judge for themelves if something is lacking.

Bernadette

That’s just my point. I think experience with married clergy coming in from other denominations who are later ordained to the Catholic priesthood shows that when older married men come in for ordination with their families well-established, then there is no reason to believe there will be more problems than with ordination of older celibate men. The evidence of life-long Catholics entering the permanent diaconate speaks in favor of this transferring very well to our older married men. (In other words, a family does not have to grow up surrounded by married clergy with families to “get” how to do this.)

The testimony of women married to permanent deacons would suggest that it is anything but an easy thing to ask even of an established family. That’s not to say it should not be done, but that if the families with older children find it difficult, it may be wise not to ask it of families whose children are still young.

The experience of other denominations is that ordaining married men who are younger can be expected to lead to a divorce rate on par with other couples in that age group. That is currently not an acceptable level of marital failure for men in Holy Orders. Remember that that clergy coming in for ordination from other denominations but who divorced are already selected out of the group of married clergy that you have experience with. We only ordain their success stories!

It may be that at some future date the rate of failure and abandonment of attempted marriages will lower to the point that ordination of younger married men might be revisited. I just think that removing the discipline of celibacy to such a young age is not advisable until the state of marriage among Catholics recovers mightily.

With older couples, though, I agree that the evidence shows that is a different story, if handled with the care currently in place.