Primer on purgatory for Hoosiers and others

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Hi hoosierdaddy and everyone else reading this,

I said I would post the Scriptural basis of purgatory. Here we go.

The Church teaches that when we die, we are bound for either heaven or hell. Those bound for heaven may need further purification from sin. I like to think of it as further sanctification.

Here is a few quotes from the CCC:

1023 - Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face.

1030 - All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 - The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
Here are some Scripture passages to back this up:
2 Corinthians 5:6-11

Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

What is it that we will “receive” for the bad things done while in the body? And why are we to “fear” this?

Matthew 18:32-35

"Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

Luke 12:47-48

"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Here in these passages, Jesus speaks about “jailers” and being “tortured,” and of being beaten with many or few blows. Is He using hyperbole here, as He does when He says to cut of the hand or pluck out the eye if they offend? If He is, then what is the hyperbolic statements representing?

OK, that is enough for now.

Peace,
Jacobaer
 
well, most Hoosiers don’t need purgatory because if you drive on I70 on rush hour, you have done your expiation.😃 😉

But, I don’t think that counts for Hoosiers in Canada. 😛
 
I was trying to draw hoosierdaddy over to this thread for a little discussion but I guess I am not successful.

Jacobaer
 
I hadn’t seen it.

I will get back to you on this. I still don’t believe in purgatory though. I think the Scriptures you used are taken out of context. Thank you for posting this though. Hopefully it can remain civil without Catholics accusing me of Catholic bashing and going to hell. 👍
 
Hopefully all those people who don’t believe in purgatory will at least make it there.
 
I hadn’t seen it.

I will get back to you on this. I still don’t believe in purgatory though. I think the Scriptures you used are taken out of context. Thank you for posting this though. Hopefully it can remain civil without Catholics accusing me of Catholic bashing and going to hell. 👍
Hoosierdaddy, are you from Indiana originally? just curious.

The most simple explanation of purgatory I’ve ever seen is:

Do you agree that all people die in an imperfect state?

most will say yes.

Do you agree that all people must be purified to stand in the presence of God?

most say yes.

Purgatory is just the process of removing that stain. Very logical. It has to happen. And, it is still only by the free gift of God’s grace.

I think a big difference in Catholic/Protestant theology is the way that Catholics view God’s mercy. Catholics say that God allows us to participate in his mercy. While Protestants make us passive.

What do you think of the Jewish custom of praying for the dead? This is clearly a Biblical practice.
 
Hi hoosierdaddy,

You will NOT get any bashing from me. I want to discuss civilly, as I think you want to, also.

Peace,
Jacobaer
 
well, most Hoosiers don’t need purgatory because if you drive on I70 on rush hour, you have done your expiation.😃 😉

But, I don’t think that counts for Hoosiers in Canada. 😛
What about Hoosiers in Minnesota??–oh wait, maybe I’m in purgatory now? 😃

Thanks for the laugh, btw, the title of this thread truly cracked this native Hoosier up!!!

Jennifer
 
Hopefully all those people who don’t believe in purgatory will at least make it there.
I’m actually really surprised that a Catholic would post this. (because it can confuse people who are already confused by what purgatory is)
 
I’m actually really surprised that a Catholic would post this. (because it can confuse people who are already confused by what purgatory is)
It makes sense to me.

Someone who doesn’t believe in Purgatory isn’t going to bother with Last Rites or any other Sacraments, so their chances of being instantly transported to Heaven are pretty tiny, unless they somehow managed to live a perfect life from the moment of Baptism on (which is certainly possible, but it’s not very likely).

But, we can hope that they make it to Purgatory, because if they don’t, then the alternative is Hell.
 
I think they need to understand that Purgatory is a STATE and NOT A PLACE.

The Anglicans believe in an intermediate state between Death and Heaven. They just don’t call it Purgatory.

They also need to understand that the DURATION in this FINAL PURIFICATION could either from 1 millioneth of a second to 1 million seconds depending upon how much baggage you carried during your life.

Does that sound about right?
 
It is interesting to note that both of the rabbinical schools of first-century Judaism believed in a state of purification from sin after death for the just who were not completely just.

And St. Paul was trained in one of these schools, the school of Hillel. I think this sheds light on the passage I quoted from 2 Corinthians 5.

Peace,
Jacobaer
 
Just a comment…
  1. Do you as a protestant believe that christ will cleanse you of your sins with his blood?
    Every protestant should say yes
  2. Do you beleive that he will cover you and your sins with a white robe?
    Every protestant should say yes
  3. Do you believe that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god?
    Again, every protestant should say yes…
  4. Do you believe that all ahve the stain of sin, and for most, even at death?
    Answer for a protestant, Yes
  5. Do you believe that if you truely a follower of christ, and die with some stain of sin, that by His grace alone, he will still forgive those sins via options 1 and 2?
    Answer… Yes
  6. Do you agree that EVERY premise stipulated here is fully biblical?
    I challenge anyway, protestant or catholic to say otherwise…
Every concept mentioned is from the bible…

Now, if I told you that i was going to combine ALL of these indeas into one single word, but it still meant everything dictated above, would you have a problem with me using that word?

As a protestant, hopefully you would say, no, as long as it means what you are saying it does up there…

By the way, there is a single word in the english dictionary that means jsut that, its called purgatory.

Purgatory is the process of cleansing, not a place of cleansing.
How long do we need to be covered by his blood before we are cleansed… Dunno, never says.
Is it painfull… Implied by some versus, but it may not be.

So…

Knowing that Purgatory is merely a word used by the CC to succenctly describe each of these aspects of his grace, are you really going to say becaus you dont like the word purgatory, that means it isnt true? Tell you what… if its jsut the word you dont like… then come up wiht your own… the process is still the same… and it a process protestants have also been teaching form day 1

In Christ
 
If Protestants have been teaching it since day 1 does that mean that they will pray for my soul after I die?

Of course not!

Peter prayed for Tabitha in Acts when she was dead so prayer for the dead is 100% Biblical. Why is it that protestants won’t just believe the bible?

Revelation says that nothing unholy will enter into heaven. Why don’t protestants believe that?

Luther said you could waltz into heaven like dung wearing the robe of Christ. Did Jesus die for us just so we would never change–remain like dung and come to heaven without doing what he told us to–to “Be ye Perfect”.

If Jesus told us to be that way–why don’t Protestants believe him?

There is a distinct difference between Catholic and protestants concerning purgatory.

Purgatory is De Fide–it must be believed if one is to be a Catholic and there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

so bottom line: one way or another–in this life or the next–everyone who enters heaven will believe in Purgatory.

That is a fact!
 
Hoosierdaddy, where are you?

Are you stumped by the definition and the Scriptural support?

Dr. R.C. Sproul said in a radio broadcast with his son that he believes that all believers will be purified after death. Whether it will happen before we see Jesus, or whether seeing Jesus fact to face will purify us, he doesn’t know.

Interesting, isnt’ it?

I hope you come back and join this discussion. We’ll stick with Scripture.

Peace,
Jacobaer
 
Dr. R.C. Sproul said in a radio broadcast with his son that he believes that all believers will be purified after death. Whether it will happen before we see Jesus, or whether seeing Jesus fact to face will purify us, he doesn’t know.
That is really interesting. I would be interested to know if you have any links to something online that mentions exactly what Dr. Sproul said.
 
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