Prior to Vatican II

[Thomas_White]

I completed high school prior to Vatican II. The Tridentine Mass was far more spiritual and reverent. The priest, like the congregation, faced the Cross (not the altar as such). This was often to the East and symbolized the awaiting of the Second Coming. To say that the priest “had his back” to the congregation is to misunderstand what was occurring and why. This was the unity of priest and congregation looking toward Christ. The priest led the congregation, of course, but he was not the central focus of the Mass. And he faced the Cross above the altar.

 

[edwest2]

I completed high school prior to Vatican II. The Tridentine Mass was far more spiritual and reverent. The priest, like the congregation, faced the Cross (not the altar as such). This was often to the East and symbolized the awaiting of the Second Coming. To say that the priest “had his back” to the congregation is to misunderstand what was occurring and why. This was the unity of priest and congregation looking toward Christ. The priest led the congregation, of course, but he was not the central focus of the Mass. And he faced the Cross above the altar.

Yes, Pope Benedict repeated this in his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy. The cross above the altar was the focus.

Ed

 

[pianistclare]

The Mass was (mostly) in Latin and was slightly different. The Church itself has not changed that much in two thousand years. Same teachings, same seven sacraments. The biggest difference in the Church and Western society in general before the 1960’s was that they had not yet been infected by social decay. The cultural decline and loss of faith that set in in the 1960’s actually had nothing to do with Vatican II.

THIS^^.
Thanks

 

[TimothyH]

Please don’t start. None of us were around in the 1400s and what about black people? We’ve got terrorists today. I just really hate it when anything positive gets said, it’s like the worst thing in the world. And none of us reading this were around in 1920 either.

We were proud of our country. Today? No, not really.

Ed

I’m glad you have great memories of your childhood. Many in the US do not. Not everyone lived in white, suburban middle-class Eisenhower America.

The question posed was “prior to Vatican II”. I think my comments qualified. There was no chalice, only the host, and no permanent deacons prior to Vatican II.

-Tim-

 

[Pulvis]

Please don’t start. None of us were around in the 1400s and what about black people? We’ve got terrorists today. I just really hate it when anything positive gets said, it’s like the worst thing in the world. And none of us reading this were around in 1920 either.

We were proud of our country. Today? No, not really.

Ed

I am with you Ed. I tried to explain to my grand daughters what it meant to actually get out of your chair to change channels on your RCA black and white TV and they looked at me like I came from Mars. So much has changed so quickly, both in The Church and im thw secular world. And much of the 30 something and under set are clueless to what we had just 40 years ago. This knowledge gap is somewhat frightening. Loss of continuity leads to a loss of foundation.

 

[Thomas_White]

Yes, Pope Benedict repeated this in his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy. The cross above the altar was the focus.

Ed

Yes, it was. I was also an altar server. It was clear to us that the focus of the priest was on the Cross above the altar. As we knelt on the altar steps during the consecration, this was very clear.

 

[ProVobis]

I agree because I was there too. My father used to tell me that some people in New York City slept on fire escapes during the summer months because there was no air conditioning. I can’t imagine doing that in modern society.

Seems like most people attended Mass earlier on those hot summer days because there was no air conditioning in church or anywhere else.

 

[ProVobis]

Being new to current day Catholicism I have no idea what things were like prior to Vatican II. Can anyone draw a mental picture of that part of Catholic history for me? (I do know the priest celebrated the Eucharist with his back to the assembly but that’s all I really know.)

Adversus populum was started in the 40’s and the actual Mass reforms started about that time as well, 1948 to be more precise.

 

[Thomas_White]

“We didn’t worry about nuclear war?” I don’t know how old you are, but I was in (parochial) grammar schools 1952-1960, and I have distinct memories of practicing “duck and cover” drills where we would scramble under our desks to practice protecting ourselves should an air raid warning be sounded. We frequently were lectured on Civil Defense, and where air raid shelters were located. There was lots of talk of a “missile gap,” which played a big role in the 1960 presidential campaign of JFK. The late 50’s began the heyday of back yard “fallout shelters.” Lots of articles about radiation half-life and the lingering effects of fallout and strontium-90 in things like milk. We worried about nuclear war a LOT.

This is true. I attended a Catholic elementary school during the 1950’s. We did have drills where we got under our desks and held a spelling book over our heads. This was to provide protection from a hydrogen bomb. Though we were children, few of us believed we would have a chance. To say a quick Act of Contrition seemed a better idea. There was existential dread, and it was reinforced every Friday at 11:00 a.m. when the city tested its air raid sirens. It wasn’t about airplanes. Fallout from above ground nuclear testing in Western states was a reality. After a nuclear test, napkins placed over open milk bottles was a common sight. We knew.

I don’t think the late 60’s can be understood apart from the existential dread we felt as children. It was the madness of adults, and as children we knew it. Our generation would challenge this in the late '60’s.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

We knew there was nothing we could do about it. Nothing. So I spent zero time in bed, every night, worrying about it. That was rational. No one built bomb shelters and I live in Michigan - target number 5 on the Russians’ hit list. I should say targets because there were three close enough to where I lived that a “miss” of a mile or two still wouldn’t have mattered.

Missile gap? Check your history. That was under President Eisenhower. The Defense Department had to make sure that Fiscal Year 1960 spending was in place before Kennedy, or their buddy, Nixon got into office. And recent scholarship clearly shows that as early as 1953, war planners on both sides realized nuclear war was a no-win situation but that morphed into Mutually Assured Destruction as time passed.

The following is anecdotal but matches up with a lot that has been published. An unidentified member of the CIA bumped into another sometime in the 1970s and asked, referring to 1962, “Were you there when they were talking about blowing up the world?” The other replied, “Yeah. I was there.”

Ed

“Missile gap” - I suggest you check YOUR history. My original statement was that the discussion of a “missile gap” played a big role in the 1960’JFK presidential campaign. I stand by that statement. That is also a different thing than saying the “gap” was real. To cite a Wikipedia article: “Unaware that (a leaked report on comparative missile strength) was misleading, Kennedy used the numbers in the document and based some of his 1960 election campaign platform on the Republicans being ‘weak on defense.’ The missile gap was a common theme.”

 

[edwest2]

I am with you Ed. I tried to explain to my grand daughters what it meant to actually get out of your chair to change channels on your RCA black and white TV and they looked at me like I came from Mars. So much has changed so quickly, both in The Church and im thw secular world. And much of the 30 something and under set are clueless to what we had just 40 years ago. This knowledge gap is somewhat frightening. Loss of continuity leads to a loss of foundation.

That’s why a number of groups collaborated, starting right after the end of Vatican II to destroy the family, to make illegal drugs “cool” as opposed to harmful, to turn fornication into “casual sex.” Easy divorce in the 1980s caused a lot of damage and that was created out of thin air. Intergenerational ties and relatives meant the continuity you speak of had to be attacked. No more visits to grandma or grandpa or aunt Helen or your cousins because radical feminists moved in force in the 1970s and said women are in charge. Men are the eternal enemy.

So, all those people worked in steps, spent a lot of money and turned that black and white “guest in your living room” into a pimp and a whore. Even cartoons. Family Guy mentions “those values on which we used to rely.” But, with God’s help, the remnant that He always leaves behind will rebuild what was lost. Self-respect? No sex before marriage? Abortion bad? Hooking up Bad?

Remember, those who go to Church more often are going to see the world correctly.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

“Missile gap” - I suggest you check YOUR history. My original statement was that the discussion of a “missile gap” played a big role in the 1960’JFK presidential campaign. I stand by that statement. That is also a different thing than saying the “gap” was real. To cite a Wikipedia article: “Unaware that (a leaked report on comparative missile strength) was misleading, Kennedy used the numbers in the document and based some of his 1960 election campaign platform on the Republicans being ‘weak on defense.’ The missile gap was a common theme.”

The biggest role anything played during John F. Kennedy’s political campaign was the fact that he was Catholic. With due respect, the US - which was falling behind in the space race - deployed untested ICBMs in 1959? That material has only been partly declassified. A lot of guidance, electronics and stage separation, much less warhead separation, technology had to be tested before missile one entered service. The problem of reentry heating had to be solved. The warhead had to survive very high temperatures, and hit close enough to destroy something of value or you’ve got no defense.

Ed

 

[Justin61790]

I hope this is on topic. It deals with Vatican II, and I dont mean to derail, but if this isnt considered on topic I apologize.

I just read this article: crisismagazine.com/2015/wrecking-churches-iconoclasm-continuity

And was wondering, did Vatican 2 really promote iconoclasim and if so why?

I mean look at the image on the right, compared to the way the church looks now: 3m7ajlsrzj92lfd1hu16hu7vc.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Saint_Turibius_chapel-660x350-1422615352.jpg.

Why would someone do that to such a beautiful church? This is a problem I always had with the Baptist churches I grew up in. They were just brick buildings with sheet rock walls and red carpet. I never got the sense that the builders were trying to build a house worthy of the presence of our LORD. It’s something I always admired about the Catholic Church and their beautiful cathedrals but now I’ve found this article that says post Vatican 2 some decided to strip Catholic churches of their beauty. Is this true? Is it a sin to want the places we worship and receive our LORD to be beautiful and something more than white sheetrock walls and carpet?

 

[Mark121359]

Prior to Vatican II,
*Packed churches on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.
*Crucifix over altar.
*Tabernacle in center of the altar.
*Communion rail in all churches.
*Modesty strictly adhered to.
*Ornate churches. Statues of Jesus, Mary, Angels and the Saints.

***Today, ***
*Half full or near empty churches on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.
*Pictures and other objects in some churches over altar. Altars replaced with table.
*Tabernacle? In many churches you have to search for the Tabernacle!
*Modesty relaxed. T-shirts, shorts, beach clothing, sneakers now normal.
*Communion rails largely removed.
*Cookie-cutter churches. Some churches could pass for a gymnasium. Statues of Jesus, Mary, Angels and the Saints largely removed.

Peace, Mark

 

[agnes_therese]

Prior to Vatican II,
*Packed churches on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.
*Crucifix over altar.
*Tabernacle in center of the altar.
*Communion rail in all churches.
*Modesty strictly adhered to.
*Ornate churches. Statues of Jesus, Mary, Angels and the Saints.

***Today, ***
*Half full or near empty churches on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.
*Pictures and other objects in some churches over altar. Altars replaced with table.
*Tabernacle? In many churches you have to search for the Tabernacle!
*Modesty relaxed. T-shirts, shorts, beach clothing, sneakers now normal.
*Communion rails largely removed.
*Cookie-cutter churches. Some churches could pass for a gymnasium. Statues of Jesus, Mary, Angels and the Saints largely removed.

Peace, Mark

And of course, there was NOTHING else going on in society that would have affected any of these things.

 

[pianistclare]

And of course, there was NOTHING else going on in society that would have affected any of these things.

Exactly.
This is why these threads get locked.

To the OP:
The documents that came out of VATII can be purchased in book form, or read online.
I would encourage you to read them. They are beautiful. God bless.
I’m out.

 

[roadsend]

Prior to Vatican II,
*Packed churches on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.
*Crucifix over altar.
*Tabernacle in center of the altar.
*Communion rail in all churches.
*Modesty strictly adhered to.
*Ornate churches. Statues of Jesus, Mary, Angels and the Saints.

***Today, ***
*Half full or near empty churches on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.
*Pictures and other objects in some churches over altar. Altars replaced with table.
*Tabernacle? In many churches you have to search for the Tabernacle!
*Modesty relaxed. T-shirts, shorts, beach clothing, sneakers now normal.
*Communion rails largely removed.
*Cookie-cutter churches. Some churches could pass for a gymnasium. Statues of Jesus, Mary, Angels and the Saints largely removed.

Peace, Mark

…and prior to V2 - quiet, prayerful congregation before and after Mass.
… and after VII - noisy, raucous assembly before and after Mass and often during the Mass itself.

 

[srfnolen]

You talk as if Ad Orientem worship is a complete relic of the past when Pope Francis has offered plenty of Masses in this way. The priest didn’t have his back to the people, he faced the same way as the people in prayer toward the tabernacle containing the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, as well as toward the East. Mass is not a show where the priest is the star. We as Catholics need to again begin to think in a spiritual sense as we did when Ad Orientem was the norm and not the exception, and actually knew why it was. I fear having the majority of Catholics no longer thinking in a spiritual sense was the goal of a select few who wished to change the Mass. What other reason could there possibly have been? Well, it worked.

Please , don’t misunderstand. I don’t always know how to"talk" or state the question but I do indeed wish to capture a mental picture of that time with respect because I feel it held a grace and reverence I do not see in every parish though some still successfully capture it. Yes, to know what to do and why it is done is key. Mass is a reverent time and I enjoy going to SEE Jesus and give Him all of me.

 

[Pulvis]

To the OP, yes, things within the Church changed post Vatican Council II. You will find many arguements as to why: V-II, spirit of V-II, societal changes, et al. Regardless of blame or cause, yes things changed. There are numerous good books addressing the changes, just be careful as to the orthodoxy and motive of the writer. Were things perfect before the Council? No. Are thing perfect now? No. Did we as Catholics leave behind important aspects of our tradition? In my opinion, yes. Is the Church still the Church? Absolutely! Always will be. Christ Jesus said so. Pax.

 

[srfnolen]

I was there before Vatican II. The Mass was celebrated with the priest facing the altar. It was very reverent, and in Latin. We used the 1962 Missal. The Mass was in Latin but the Missal also showed the words in English. Everyone wore their “Sunday Best” out of respect for the House of God. Easter Mass was at dawn. The altar boys wore robes with rope belts. There was a procession led by our pastor as he walked under a canopy with altar boys on either side gently swinging metal containers of incense. For the boys, we each had a potted lily and joined the procession which went around the Church. There was a great sense of reverence and our thoughts were on the divine. We joined with the choir even if we didn’t have good singing voices. Communion rails on either side of the middle aisle, near the altar, were where we knelt to receive Communion on the tongue. The outside world was more polite, respectful and modest in general. No, it was not perfect. We had crime and other problems but there were various Church societies and lay helpers. Each society had its own banner, which were placed together near the front left side of the Church. No, not everyone was Catholic, but we had a strong set of shared values in our neighborhoods and in our daily interactions with people. I felt the presence of God every day.

This was the the visual I was wanting. Thank you!

Ed