Prison break: 2 killers escape maximum security prison using power tools

[Ender]

What does the Vicar of Christ and the Bishops tell us about the necessity of the death penalty?

Their preference that the death penalty not be used is based on the assumption that imprisonment provides sufficient protection for society. Events like this are a challenge that assumption.

I think I will stick with their thoughts on the matter as they have the charism and the authority to teach the faithful.

They certainly have the charism and authority to teach the faithful in matters of faith and morals. Their expertise stops somewhat short of discerning the capabilities and shortcomings of modern penal systems.

Ender

 

[unstoppable_II]

You got that right. Probably several somethings.

I see the news just picked up on my question this morning.

 

[ChurchSuffering]

The Vicar of Christ and the Bishops are not the ones who have to pick up the pieces when an imprisoned murderer escapes and kills again. There is a very good reason why God instituted capital punishment, and while there are also good reasons for making it rare, there is no good reason for doing away with it altogether.

Man has no right to decide when to end a life, that is for God alone.

 

[mikekle]

And people said it was impossible for people to escape our “sophisticated” prisons lol

Ive never heard anyone say that, it would be a pretty dumb statement, as people have been escaping prisons for a LONG time.

They definitely had help, the proof is they were able to navigate the maze of underground tunnels to find the exact spot they needed to exit…sounds like they had someone in public works helping them, or someone who worked for the city.

I saw this morning, they are now offering $100,000 reward, IMO, if this happened in NY, they probably went north, into Canada. Strange that they havent killed anyone though, I havent heard of any murder cases since they escaped, I thought they were violent fugitives?

 

[ucfengr]

Something is missing in this story. I have operated many kinds of power tools and can’t remember any that didn’t make a lot of noise cutting whatever it was they were cutting. Were the guards willfully deaf?

Funny you should mention this, I was watching The Great Escape (a fantastic movie starring Steve McQueen, James Garner, and too many others to mention) on Netflix this weekend which is based on a true story about the escape of 70+ prisoners from a German POW camp. Very interesting some of the tactics they used to hide their planning.

 

[Path_Finder]

Man has no right to decide when to end a life, that is for God alone.

In this vein, we do have verses in the Bible such as “an eye for an eye”. Whether such has been modified by the New Testament and the Church is certainly a viable argument.

 

[Path_Finder]

Ive never heard anyone say that, it would be a pretty dumb statement, as people have been escaping prisons for a LONG time.

They definitely had help, the proof is they were able to navigate the maze of underground tunnels to find the exact spot they needed to exit…sounds like they had someone in public works helping them, or someone who worked for the city.

I saw this morning, they are now offering $100,000 reward, IMO, if this happened in NY, they probably went north, into Canada. Strange that they havent killed anyone though, I havent heard of any murder cases since they escaped, I thought they were violent fugitives?

Someone must be helping them among possibly a few alternatives. If they could make this sophisticate escape, they must know what they are doing.

They got a 7 hour head start, maybe they are in Brazil or somewhere as well.

I see the Daily Mail has a story that just came out asking if a prison female worker had been seduced.

 

[mikekle]

Someone must be helping them among possibly a few alternatives. If they could make this sophisticate escape, they must know what they are doing.

They got a 7 hour head start, maybe they are in Brazil or somewhere as well.

I see the Daily Mail has a story that just came out asking if a prison female worker had been seduced.

Yes, they could be anywhere by now. the seduction of female guards has been a thorn in the prison industries side for many years now, it appears this happens fairly frequently, but I guess they dont screen that well for guard jobs, as it is about the lowest level law enforcement job you can get, so they probably do not have a huge amount of qualifications to be hired.

Ive always wondered about the ‘for profit’ prisons, I think this creates too great of an atmosphere for corruption to occur, while these prisons do take inmates from state and county courts, they are also a BUSINESS, and in business to make money, it only figures, if an inmate was fairly well off, they could probably ‘buy’ their freedom or buy ‘an opportunity’, Id venture to say this industry has the most corruption within.

Something else I just learned recently, just because someone is wanted by police (has a warrant), that does not mean, police will arrest them ANYWHERE in the country, I was quite surprised to learn warrants have a mileage restriction on them, most cases, its 500 miles, if the wanted person goes beyond this 500 mile radius and gets stopped by police, they wont arrest them. The warrant is only valid in certain areas. I thought it was nationwide all this time.

 

[Ender]

Man has no right to decide when to end a life, that is for God alone.

This is not what the church teaches, which is actually somewhat different.
And thus that which is lawful to God is lawful for His ministers when they act by His mandate. It is evident that God who is the Author of laws, has every right to inflict death on account of sin. For “the wages of sin is death.” Neither does His minister sin in inflicting that punishment. The sense, therefore, of “Thou shalt not kill” is that one shall not kill by one’s own authority. (Catechism of St. Thomas)
Ender

 

[signit]

Their preference that the death penalty not be used is based on the assumption that imprisonment provides sufficient protection for society. Events like this are a challenge that assumption.

Exactly.

I’ve always said I was opposed to the death penalty because of the possibility of executing the wrong person. But I’m no longer sure. If someone isn’t executed they might somehow go free to kill again.

And people said it was impossible for people to escape our “sophisticated” prisons lol

Ive never heard anyone say that, it would be a pretty dumb statement, as people have been escaping prisons for a LONG time.

I have in fact heard that argument. A death penalty opponent assured me that a prison official assured her that a person in Supermax will not escape.

But, whether they escaped on their own, or whether was some carelessness or worse from someone on the inside, the fact is, they did it, and now they’re free to kill again, because the system isn’t perfect.

 

[Ender]

I’ve always said I was opposed to the death penalty because of the possibility of executing the wrong person. But I’m no longer sure. If someone isn’t executed they might somehow go free to kill again.

There is no risk free alternative. If we execute we risk executing an innocent person, but if we don’t execute we risk recidivist killings. It is not appropriate to focus only on the risk associated with one approach while ignoring the risk of choosing its alternative.

I have in fact heard that argument. A death penalty opponent assured me that a prison official assured her that a person in Supermax will not escape.

It would appear that escaped prisoners present less of a risk than prisoners who order hits from within prisons. This is known to have happened, and with the prevalence of cell phones it is extremely difficult to prevent.

Ender

 

[grotto]

$100,000 will find a lot of people eager to take a discreet look here and there. I hope someone can claim it “toots sweet”!

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Ive never heard anyone say that, it would be a pretty dumb statement, as people have been escaping prisons for a LONG time.

They definitely had help, the proof is they were able to navigate the maze of underground tunnels to find the exact spot they needed to exit…sounds like they had someone in public works helping them, or someone who worked for the city.

I saw this morning, they are now offering $100,000 reward, IMO, if this happened in NY, they probably went north, into Canada. Strange that they havent killed anyone though, I havent heard of any murder cases since they escaped, I thought they were violent fugitives?

Not necessarily going to Canada.

The village is on the edge of the Adirondack Park, which is a Constitutionally protected area by the state of NY. The area is quite large (you could fit the 5 largest national parks out west inside of it), and very wild.

 

[mikekle]

Not necessarily going to Canada.

The village is on the edge of the Adirondack Park, which is a Constitutionally protected area by the state of NY. The area is quite large (you could fit the 5 largest national parks out west inside of it), and very wild.

Why would they go into the wilderness to live? They are not used to living like that, so they would likely starve to death, although maybe there is some advantage to it as that area is constitutionally protected…maybe, but I still say they are out of the country, once they step over the border, no more need to hide or cover their tracks.

The $100K reward is a bad idea, Id say that will do nothing more than have lots of people from all over the country calling in ‘look-alikes’, LE will spend way too much time chasing down the wrong people, Ive seen their pictures, they are both pretty common looking, that is not good for LE.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Why would they go into the wilderness to live? They are not used to living like that, so they would likely starve to death, although maybe there is some advantage to it as that area is constitutionally protected…maybe, but I still say they are out of the country, once they step over the border, no more need to hide or cover their tracks.

There is some speculation that they had some “help” from the outside, so who knows what kind of arrangements were made. And I’m merely pointing out that if they went into the woods, they could be hard to find in the heavily forested rugged terrain.

Also, I believe our Canadian counterparts are lending a hand by increasing border patrols and searches (I live within 2 hrs of the border and can get Canadian TV). I doubt they want these guys either. My guess is also that we have some sort of extradition treaty so if they were to be found in Canada, we would have no problem getting them back. Canada isn’t some 3rd world backwater where the local authorities could be bribed.

 

[ChurchSuffering]

I wonder if they watched the TV show “Prison Break”

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Many media reports are speculating that the inmates had inside help, though probably not the guards. Large prisons actually have a LOT of staff on hand for tasks that any large residential institution would require; people to maintain the building, cook, clean, etc. If that is the case, this would be far from the first “prison break” that was an inside job.

Now, it would be easy to say, “this proves the death penalty is needed, because incarceration isn’t a sure bet, even a few bad apples in the system can cause it to fail”.

But isn’t it essentially the same system that would be responsible for putting people to death? If those in the system, can be corrupted one way, to collaborate with guilty criminals to set them free, then surely it can be corrupted the other way, the result being innocent people being put to death. And this “mistake” cannot be corrected.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Convicted murders doing life sentences, have nothing to lose by attacking guards or other inmates.

These two that escaped, will kill in order to avoid capture.

Explain to the family members of those they murder, why they should not be executed.

Jim

 

[mikekle]

But isn’t it essentially the same system that would be responsible for putting people to death? If those in the system, can be corrupted one way, to collaborate with guilty criminals to set them free, then surely it can be corrupted the other way, the result being innocent people being put to death. And this “mistake” cannot be corrected.

Yes, if they are corrupt on one thing, its most likely they are open to other forms of corruption too. Have to remember the enemy has these people under his control, they are just not going to do the right thing, their minds do not work like that.

 

[mikekle]

These two that escaped, will kill in order to avoid capture.

Im not saying they dont belong in prison, but they have been out for 5 days now, yet from what Ive heard, no reports of anyone being killed…so…??

I think this kind of thing is tough on officials, they say they are armed and extremely dangerous, but then when time goes by and no violence is reported in any of the areas they have done thru, it sort of weakens their statements a bit