Pro ALL life -

[Biggie]

Call me nuts, but I in no way have any sense whatsoever of the moral issue you are addressing nor do I ever think I will. So I will be a hard sell if the notion is that I have in some way incurred guilt in the blessings of food I have received. I think we left Kosher and dietary laws far behind - it is not what enters into a man that renders him impure and, I think, conversely, pure.

The virtues to which I aspire - frugality, humility, gratitude, charity - and the vices I wish to avoid - pride, concupiscence, gluttony, selfishness - are certainly enough to keep me busy into the foreseeable future.

I am genuinely grateful when I am able to afford a good steak, grateful to God who I do thank, and grateful to the preparer who I also thank. Our relative prosperity is such that we are able to entertain such discussions despite the truly tenuous nature of life.

 

[4elise]

Call me nuts, but I in no way have any sense whatsoever of the moral issue you are addressing nor do I ever think I will. So I will be a hard sell if the notion is that I have in some way incurred guilt in the blessings of food I have received. I think we left Kosher and dietary laws far behind - it is not what enters into a man that renders him impure and, I think, conversely, pure.

The virtues to which I aspire - frugality, humility, gratitude, charity - and the vices I wish to avoid - pride, concupiscence, gluttony, selfishness - are certainly enough to keep me busy into the foreseeable future.

I don’t know if you had a chance to read the second post on this thread - but what I am trying to do is discuss food choices as they relate to Catholic Social Teaching.

Gratitude is certainly a virtue as are the others you list - and the vices you try to avoid include selfishness - speaking for myself — from what I am putting together in my own mind as it relates to my choices ---- this is one of the areas that makes me question - if it takes 16 lbs of soy and grain to raise 1 lg of beef - wouldn’t it be better then to take those 16 lbs and give them directly to people - if factory farming is causing increased pollution isn’t it better for me to pull myself out of that loop to do my part for cleaner water and environment for all?

 

[Biggie]

I don’t know if you had a chance to read the second post on this thread - but what I am trying to do is discuss food choices as they relate to Catholic Social Teaching.

Gratitude is certainly a virtue as are the others you list - and the vices you try to avoid include selfishness - speaking for myself — from what I am putting together in my own mind as it relates to my choices ---- this is one of the areas that makes me question - if it takes 16 lbs of soy and grain to raise 1 lg of beef - wouldn’t it be better then to take those 16 lbs and give them directly to people - if factory farming is causing increased pollution isn’t it better for me to pull myself out of that loop to do my part for cleaner water and environment for all?

Humbly recognizing my low station in the world, getting that steak is a gift and a joy for which I am grateful, knowing that it need not be so. It will nourish me to carry out the work that is before me, and I would presume it is for the good I will produce from it the Lord has found recompense in my nourishment. And if someone stops by and they’re hungry, I’ll split it with them. And if a couple people stop by, maybe I’ll let them share it and wait myself.

Grain’s ok, but I like steak and that preference in itself is not sinful. And I didn’t organize the world or establish the natural order. I am simply trying to survive within it and in that effort, I think God’s my ally.

 

[AHapka]

In this society one can avoid eating both meat and plants and avoid killing anything. It is entirely possible to live on nutritional supplements. Modern chemistry has allowed us to synthesize all of the chemicals necessary to maintain human life.

If you truly want to take the position of not killing anything, that is the appropriate path to take. You ARE NOT pro ALL life when you support the killing of plants.

In Jesus’s day, fishing was accomplished by throwing a net into the water and hauling in a bunch of fish to eat. Those fish were allowed to die on the deck of the boat by suffocating. They were pulled from the water and died because they couldn’t get any oxygen. That’s not a nice way to go.

But yet, Jesus said to Peter “Put out into deep water and lower your nets for a catch.” So obviously he allowed it in order to feed men.

The life of a human being is worth many sparrows.

 

[4elise]

Humbly recognizing my low station in the world, getting that steak is a gift and a joy for which I am grateful, knowing that it need not be so. It will nourish me to carry out the work that is before me, and I would presume it is for the good I will produce from it the Lord has found recompense in my nourishment. And if someone stops by and they’re hungry, I’ll split it with them. And if a couple people stop by, maybe I’ll let them share it and wait myself.

Grain’s ok, but I like steak and that preference in itself is not sinful. And I didn’t organize the world or establish the natural order. I am simply trying to survive within it and in that effort, I think God’s my ally.

Biggie - you are a generous soul! I agree that preference in itself is certainly not a sin, and this is why I make ‘not-meat’ loafs! (And this answers all those who say if vegans love animals so much why do they try to make stuff that taste like meat?) The various not-meat loafs I make are great & good nutrition too!

Much of what I have been considering is exactly the natural order - I don’t think it is part of that order the way meat, dairy, eggs are produced today - I think it has been distorted by those who are engaging factory farming - so this is the reason for the discussion… Blessings!

 

[4elise]

In this society one can avoid eating both meat and plants and avoid killing anything. It is entirely possible to live on nutritional supplements. Modern chemistry has allowed us to synthesize all of the chemicals necessary to maintain human life.

If you truly want to take the position of not killing anything, that is the appropriate path to take. You ARE NOT pro ALL life when you support the killing of plants.

In Jesus’s day, fishing was accomplished by throwing a net into the water and hauling in a bunch of fish to eat. Those fish were allowed to die on the deck of the boat by suffocating. They were pulled from the water and died because they couldn’t get any oxygen. That’s not a nice way to go.

But yet, Jesus said to Peter “Put out into deep water and lower your nets for a catch.” So obviously he allowed it in order to feed men.

The life of a human being is worth many sparrows.

Sigh… you are right I guess, one could live on supplements.
Sorry for the ‘ALL’ term if it was confusing - I thought that my post was sufficient to clarify what I was hoping would be a faith filled discussion on the way our food is produced today - and how we – as practicing Catholics — may want to examine these choices based on Catholic Social Teaching

I am sure we could discuss the life of Jesus and the disciples what they ate as it relates to our food choices - and if you were to reconstruct that diet of self caught fish, fruit, nuts, you would probably be pretty much ‘out of the loop’ on factory farming - It is the way food is produced in the United States in 2009 that I am hoping we might consider here - I certainly don’t want to annoy just hoping to connect with other Catholics who - like me - are trying to develop their conscious and find that this is an issue to be considered.

 

[AHapka]

It is the way food is produced in the United States in 2009 that I am hoping we might consider here - I certainly don’t want to annoy just hoping to connect with other Catholics who - like me - are trying to develop their conscious and find that this is an issue to be considered.

In that case, I agree with you. Some of it is produced in very sinful methods. It is an area that the Church should speak out in.

I am also appalled at some of the movies and news that comes out about some places. That is a sin. I wouldn’t mind paying a little more for meat if it was necessary for better treatment.

 

[jjdrury81]

I have to agree with the OP position on the issue. It is a matter that I have put much thought in to.

While I do not follow a strict vegan diet, I do follow certain dietary guidelines that are guided by my Catholic faith. I try to support modern agri-business as little as possible. For our family that means doing the majority of our shopping at local farmer’s markets and shops. We eat very little meat. When we do eat meat, dairy eggs, etc we do our best to ensure that the products are local and organic.

Good thread.

 

[4elise]

I have to agree with the OP position on the issue. It is a matter that I have put much thought in to.

While I do not follow a strict vegan diet, I do follow certain dietary guidelines that are guided by my Catholic faith. I try to support modern agri-business as little as possible. For our family that means doing the majority of our shopping at local farmer’s markets and shops. We eat very little meat. When we do eat meat, dairy eggs, etc we do our best to ensure that the products are local and organic.

Good thread.

The choices we get to make three times a day seems to be a way we can possibly make a difference! We used to joke that while we lived in Thailand (30 years ago) meat was used as garnish! Just trying to get out of the ‘loop’ on factory farming can only help - at some point we made a tipping point and now really strive for a strict vegan diet because I think it is easier to be in this position than in a sometimes position -

 

[bbarrick8383]

The choices we get to make three times a day seems to be a way we can possibly make a difference! We used to joke that while we lived in Thailand (30 years ago) meat was used as garnish! Just trying to get out of the ‘loop’ on factory farming can only help - at some point we made a tipping point and now really strive for a strict vegan diet because I think it is easier to be in this position than in a sometimes position -

Im a bit curious, how if every person here in Oklahoma, decided to cut down their barb-wire fences. Let the cattle roam free, stop hunting Turkey, Quail, Deer, Wild Hog and the varmints that ruin our gardens and eat our chickens.(Believe it or not, coyotes love watermelon and can destroy a 1 acre watermelon patch in a week.) Stopped eating meat, and adopted a 100 percent vegan diet. Which population do we control, human or animal? And how do we do it? We have wrecks with deer every year, it usually ends up worse for the deer. I have an uncle who has hit 2 deer in the last 2 year and that is still with all the hunting we do here…
What’s the solution?

 

[4elise]

Im a bit curious, how if every person here in Oklahoma, decided to cut down their barb-wire fences. Let the cattle roam free, stop hunting Turkey, Quail, Deer, Wild Hog and the varmints that ruin our gardens and eat our chickens.(Believe it or not, coyotes love watermelon and can destroy a 1 acre watermelon patch in a week.) Stopped eating meat, and adopted a 100 percent vegan diet. Which population do we control, human or animal? And how do we do it? We have wrecks with deer every year, it usually ends up worse for the deer. I have an uncle who has hit 2 deer in the last 2 year and that is still with all the hunting we do here…
What’s the solution?

I don’t know what the solution is…
It would only make sense to defer to people like you who have to cope with these issues to find solutions. I don’t know if cutting down barb-wire is part of the solution - I don’t remember seeing anyone suggest that?

This 100% issue that comes up pretty often when trying to have these discussions would mean huge changes - and I don’t have the knowledge or experience to possibly anticipate what the issues would be if that were to ever happen, no matter how unlikely.

When you consider your own Catholic faith is the move to a vegetable based diet something that makes sense?

 

[bbarrick8383]

I don’t know what the solution is…
It would only make sense to defer to people like you who have to cope with these issues to find solutions. I don’t know if cutting down barb-wire is part of the solution - I don’t remember seeing anyone suggest that?

This 100% issue that comes up pretty often when trying to have these discussions would mean huge changes - and I don’t have the knowledge or experience to possibly anticipate what the issues would be if that were to ever happen, no matter how unlikely.

When you consider your own Catholic faith is the move to a vegetable based diet something that makes sense?

No, my life has been centered around raising my own cattle and pigs. The children in my family raise some of them as pets for county and state shows. They take them to have the different physical aspects of the animal judged. We grew up fishing for catfish, bass, trout whatever we could catch and eat. We love meat, we eat a lot of white meat and fish and throw in some beef every once in awhile. We just treat animals with respect, and thank God for them.

Obviously that was a hypothetical situation. One that could be not so hypothetical though, Gen. Colin Powell said N. Korea could have put an EMP on the tip of that missile that could have completely wiped out every computer in the U.S. Imagine the chaos that would have been involved with that. People here who rely on their jobs at the Michelen tire factory, the casino and several other factories would be hunting and fishing for food again. All of the computer manufactureres, chip manufactureres, hard drive and all would be down until they could fix their own systems, then everyone elses.

In one of the other threads, I think I was just about convinced that most of us are just omnivores, and a few of us are not. But those who arent have to be careful because that diet may cause them health problems down the road. I’d be happy for you guys if you could find a more humane way for the place you do not approve of their standards of operation though.

 

[4elise]

In one of the other threads, I think I was just about convinced that most of us are just omnivores, and a few of us are not. But those who arent have to be careful because that diet may cause them health problems down the road. I’d be happy for you guys if you could find a more humane way for the place you do not approve of their standards of operation though.

Bbarrick - I appreciate your sensitivity for ‘us guys’ - seeking a way to ensure a more humane way for standards of operation in raising animals for consumption.

If you’ve looked over that original post one and two — humane treatment was only one issue that I hoped we could discuss. Issues regarding limited resources and their distribution among all, the impact of raising animals on the environment, etc…

I certainly appreciate that your circumstances are VERY different when you raise your own food and it is such a part of your life and culture, farming, fishing, hunting - and again, most of us have to do shopping at a grocery store!

 

[Marfran]

QUOTE from 4elise:*As I learned about the issues related to factory farming, dairy and leather production I became convinced that a vegan diet and therefore my daily choices are consistent with my Catholic faith and our beautiful Catholic Social Teaching. Over the last few years I have moved to a vegan diet and now at 53 find it easy, delicious, and actually fun to be creative! *

WE SHOULD START A GROUP!!! Healthy Catholic Vegans

I find it interesting that people are so afraid of vegans, I went into a local bagel shop and asked if the bagels were vegan, and/or what flavors were vegan. This bagel shop has a lot of *vegetarian *items on the menu–in fact has mostly *vegetarian *items–very few items with meat.

The girl at the counter had no idea of the vegan status of the bagels and called the manager. The manager snapped at me “Vegan is a harsh word.” I was completely taken by surprise at his harshness!!!

I replied “Actually, vegan is a very **gentle **word.”

I contacted the company (it was a chain), and was amazed to discover that a number of the bagels actually *were *vegan.

I haven’t seen that same manager there since. I wonder what happened to him? Too harsh to a customer asking if the* vegan *bagels were vegan?

Vegan is a lot of things: it is the natural diet that our bodies were designed to consume, it is better for the planet, it is better for individual health (people eating plant based diets have lower cholesterol, heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and on and on…), and it is cruelty-free.

I think that the biggest problem with discussions on factory farming and/or veganism is that many people are not familiar with current methods/conditions of food production, or with the study of human nutrition and diet/diets, and including the *history *of diet.

People have also been exposed to a lot of propaganda and erroneous facts about the foods that are marketed and mass produced. Does anyone remember the ads for milk? Milk it makes a body good. The Dairy Council was sued by a consumer group and can no longer use this wording in its ads because the wording connotes that drinking cow’s milk is healthy. The current wording is now “Milk–there’s something in it for everyone.” (I know, most of us grew up thinking that drinking milk is healthy–but did you know that countries that consume the most dairy products also have the highest incidence of osteoporosis? Wow!! That’s a head scratcher!!! Our bones have to actually leech calcium to digest the intensely concentrated calcium in cow’s milk. And where do the cows get *their calcium *from? From eating vegetation!!! Calcium is a mineral in the soil, and it is found in plants and ground grown vegetation. It is actually easier for humans to digest the calcium found in plant sources!)

I encourage everyone to learn about plant-based nutrition. There’s something in it for everybody–and it is worth investigating if you are concerned about your health or have had a health crisis–a heart attack, developed type 2 diabetes, are overweight…

Knowlege is the key to understanding–it opens a lot of doors.

People like their meat. They like the taste. They don’t want to give it up. They were raised eating it. People today do not realize that because of the invention of refrigeration, and the ability to factory farm and mass produce, they are consuming meat and other animal products in quantities that far surpass any other period of history.

I think it would do all of us good to learn the true facts of diet and nutrition. A person who chooses to eat only carrot sticks will also not be healthy–though she may have great eyesight!

So let’s be smart and learn about our food–and not trust the big companies to make healthy food for us–we have to demand it–and be aware of what we are eating–and how our diet promotes or detracts from our health.

Is eating an animal based diet really in our best interests healthwise?? And in the current quantities–or is there perhaps some overconsumption here? A lot of overconsumption?

I’m sorry I got off on the health tangent here.

Carry on** 4elise**!

 

[Sair]

People have also been exposed to a lot of propaganda and erroneous facts about the foods that are marketed and mass produced. Does anyone remember the ads for milk? Milk it makes a body good. The Dairy Council was sued by a consumer group and can no longer use this wording in its ads because the wording connotes that drinking cow’s milk is healthy. The current wording is now “Milk–there’s something in it for everyone.” (I know, most of us grew up thinking that drinking milk is healthy–but did you know that countries that consume the most dairy products also have the highest incidence of osteoporosis? Wow!! That’s a head scratcher!!! Our bones have to actually leech calcium to digest the intensely concentrated calcium in cow’s milk. And where do the cows get *their calcium *from? From eating vegetation!!! Calcium is a mineral in the soil, and it is found in plants and ground grown vegetation. It is actually easier for humans to digest the calcium found in plant sources!)

I encourage everyone to learn about plant-based nutrition. There’s something in it for everybody–and it is worth investigating if you are concerned about your health or have had a health crisis–a heart attack, developed type 2 diabetes, are overweight…

Knowlege is the key to understanding–it opens a lot of doors.

People like their meat. They like the taste. They don’t want to give it up. They were raised eating it. People today do not realize that because of the invention of refrigeration, and the ability to factory farm and mass produce, they are consuming meat and other animal products in quantities that far surpass any other period of history.

I think it would do all of us good to learn the true facts of diet and nutrition. A person who chooses to eat only carrot sticks will also not be healthy–though she may have great eyesight!

So let’s be smart and learn about our food–and not trust the big companies to make healthy food for us–we have to demand it–and be aware of what we are eating–and how our diet promotes or detracts from our health.

Is eating an animal based diet really in our best interests healthwise?? And in the current quantities–or is there perhaps some overconsumption here? A lot of overconsumption?

I’m sorry I got off on the health tangent here.

Carry on** 4elise**!

I wouldn’t have thought health was tangential to 4elise’s OP - there are certainly a variety of issues surrounding food production, and I suspect health is not the least of them! I can’t see anything immoral about doing what is best for one’s health and the health of one’s family, and the health of the environment. In fact, I would have thought this was a fairly fundamental responsibility.

But you are right in that there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Many people in the West have been more or less conditioned to think of a meal as “meat and three veg”, and the notion that “meat makes a meal” is pretty deeply ingrained. The difficulty is in determining how much of the information is really just marketing propaganda and how much is from reliable sources. One of the big nutrition pushes in Australia at the moment is for eating two serves of fruit and five serves of vegetables every day. Most of the advertisements on this subject contain recipe suggestions, just because people really are not used to consuming significant amounts of plant-based food.

I have to say, though, from my own experience, one of the things I really enjoyed about going vegetarian was the fact that it kind of forces you to get creative with cooking, and think outside the box - what do you do if you don’t have meat? It can be a bit of a stumper for a cook who is accustomed to steak and roasts… I have a very good vegetarian lasagne recipe which I have fed to meat-eating friends, and they could hardly tell the difference. I suspect it could be adapted for vegans by using soy milk for the white sauce. Having said that, though, I’m more of a fan of recipes that allow vegetables, nuts, legumes etc. to speak for themselves in a dish, rather than always looking for vegetarian/vegan substitutes for meats and other animal products.

 

[Marfran]

Sair: Our health is hugely affected by our diet. People can consume large quantities of food and not be healthy, and lacking in vitamins, minerals, and micronutrients–if they are eating overproccessed, high fat junk food, diets high in animal protein, etc…

If certain medical conditions can be attributed to one’s diet, for instance heart disease, type 2 diabetes, or obesity, etc., and you see that this affects a* large part *of the population…you have to wonder what is wrong with this diet.

When you scrutinize the this modern diet, high in animal products, empty calories, chemicals etc., and compare it to a plant-based diet something interesting emerges.

The diet based on intensive animal agriculture begins to fall apart in many ways, in addition to the comparrison of health effects.

The plant based diet protects against cancer, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and many other chronic illnesses–is better for the planet, feeds more people, and does not interefere or cause pain and suffering to God’s other beings. (Which some people will argue are here for the specific purpose of using and abusing in any way we see fit, with complete disreguard for that being’s comfort and life.)

To me it seems that it is all tied together. God has placed a challenge before us, with a clear cut path–that many people fail to recognize. If eating a box of donuts is healthy, then why do we get fat in the process, develop heart disease from the animal fats used to make the donuts, develope type 2 diabetes, etc…

What are the consequences of eating a diet high in animal products?

If one can not see the issue of the ethics of how we treat the animals that we use for food–then God must tap those people on the shoulder in a different place.

Sadly, those who wash their hands of the ethical issues, who consider animals to be used and abused with little consideration or regard, and continue to eat said animal products without conscience, often suffer from that very same consumption through preventable debilitating disease.

So if your conscience does not call you to consider animals in your equation–because you feel a disregard for their status as planetary beings–you will be called upon to visit this topic in other ways.

Your health will take a bad turn–a loved ones health will take a bad turn. How many, especially older people, who’ve been eating this stuff for a lifetime, will have to make a change in their diets to deal with high cholesterol, high blood sugar, high blood pressure, heart disease…

Our lifestyles have some negative consequences, yet so many people can not do the math.

The issue of factory farming and subsequent animal cruelty is not addressed in the Bible because it is a condition that is new to our times. We can look to the Bible for many answers–but here’s a new one that we need to figure out with the heads and hearts that God gave us. We were created in God’s image and given stewardship of this earth. And how good of a job are we doing with that?

*Dominence of the earth *means we beat it up and sully it? Dominence over animals mean that we slice, and dice, and torture them?

Some people say yes, even on the ambulence ride to the hospital.

So Sair, health issues concerning animal product consumption, and ethical issues concerning agribusiness, are linked in an interesting way.

Do we ignore all of it? Focus on one part of it? Focus on all aspects of it?

I think that the topic should be viewed HOLISTICALLY.

Can we address just the ethical part of the equation? Yes, of course! But if we view the whole picture–other elements will emerge to perhaps help us to think deeper still.

By eating foods or producing foods that degrade our health–we are also disrepecting LIFE.

 

[Pray4Life]

First, forgive me if this is kind of tedious, I have a migraine (yet MUST weigh in with my opinion in a sunlit room in front of a computer screen! So there’s the shaker of salt when it comes to my intelligence to read this with! )

I think it is admirable to live by one’s convictions, when those convictions are not ones that will send you to hell. This being true of both meat consumption and abstinence. The life that I hope we all agree is most to be valued is that of the human soul. The fact is that a soul that does not respect the dignity of life and the value of God’s creation is going to be an impoverished one and that is something worth considering, even when it comes to animal life rather than (or in addition to) human.

We are called to be good stewards of what God has made. We are allowed according to the teachings of the Church to use what God has made for our benefit, barring cruelty that is unbecoming to OUR dignity. If we follow these guidelines, we’re doing okay, whatever our choice (vegan versus “other”) turns out to be.
From the article on Cruelty to Animals in the Original Catholic Encyclopedia:

We may lawfully use them for our reasonable wants and welfare, even though such employment of them necessarily inflicts pain upon them. But the wanton infliction of pain is not the satisfaction of any reasonable need, and, being an outrage against the Divinely established order, is therefore sinful.

I believe that though we may find many modern practices unsavory (particularly for those of us detached from the actual farming trade), if we do not take pleasure in the suffering caused because of them, if we do not buy meat from this producer or store BECAUSE they use these practices and we like the fact that they may involve painfully de-beaking chickens (for example), if such practices can reasonably be assumed to be for the purpose of producing food and NOT for the purpose of causing pain to the animals involved, a Catholic may be comfortable with their decision to purchase and consume that meat. Likewise there is no sin in opting not to do so because of empathy for the suffering that IS caused, whether you agree it is reasonable or not, such sensitivity (provided it does not take precedence over sensitivity to other human souls) could even be commended as perhaps a special grace from God to keep the social conscience of the rest of us not similarly blessed in check.

You will notice that farmers like bbarick (did I get that right?) will take a matter of fact approach towards things those of us who do not live or work on farms would think of as cruel. They do not take pleasure in these things, but regard them as a practical part of life. It is necessity to them. That does not speak of “wanton infliction of pain” to me.

So it does not grieve me to eat that beef, no. I do not think that cow died in vain, but in service to the human life she was made for. That is one more reason we refer to our food as “gifts from Thy (God’s) bounty.” My final answer is “I eat meat and I believe I am pro all life,” if by “pro all life” you mean “pro the dignity and respect of God’s creation, both human and animals, according to the laws laid down by His Church.”

That said, in the interest of honesty I’m actually a vegetarian with the rare exception. Also I eat meat when I can’t separate it from my main dishes as my husband is a carnivore. But it’s not a matter of conscience for me, only preference.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

A Catholic with a well-formed conscience can choose to be vegan if they wish or they can chose to be an omnivore. There is no right or wrong to this statement to a faithful Catholic. The idea that veganism is better for any reason is only, an OPINION.

The idea that there are or could be 8 reasons why Catholic Social teaching points to veganism is again just someone’s OPINION, nothing more. Just because someone can rationalize an opinion somehow, doesn’t make the opinion more valid.

There is no good reason to preach or teach that veganism is living more closely to Catholic Socal teaching, at least from the Church’s perspective.

 

[Jon_S]

Vegans will have to pry the big juicy cheesburger from my cold dead hands.

 

[4elise]

First, forgive me if this is kind of tedious, I have a migraine (yet MUST weigh in with my opinion in a sunlit room in front of a computer screen! So there’s the shaker of salt when it comes to my intelligence to read this with! )

I think it is admirable to live by one’s convictions, when those convictions are not ones that will send you to hell. This being true of both meat consumption and abstinence. The life that I hope we all agree is most to be valued is that of the human soul. The fact is that a soul that does not respect the dignity of life and the value of God’s creation is going to be an impoverished one and that is something worth considering, even when it comes to animal life rather than (or in addition to) human.

We are called to be good stewards of what God has made. We are allowed according to the teachings of the Church to use what God has made for our benefit, barring cruelty that is unbecoming to OUR dignity. If we follow these guidelines, we’re doing okay, whatever our choice (vegan versus “other”) turns out to be.
From the article on Cruelty to Animals in the Original Catholic Encyclopedia:

I believe that though we may find many modern practices unsavory (particularly for those of us detached from the actual farming trade), if we do not take pleasure in the suffering caused because of them, if we do not buy meat from this producer or store BECAUSE they use these practices and we like the fact that they may involve painfully de-beaking chickens (for example), if such practices can reasonably be assumed to be for the purpose of producing food and NOT for the purpose of causing pain to the animals involved, a Catholic may be comfortable with their decision to purchase and consume that meat. Likewise there is no sin in opting not to do so because of empathy for the suffering that IS caused, whether you agree it is reasonable or not, such sensitivity (provided it does not take precedence over sensitivity to other human souls) could even be commended as perhaps a special grace from God to keep the social conscience of the rest of us not similarly blessed in check.

You will notice that farmers like bbarick (did I get that right?) will take a matter of fact approach towards things those of us who do not live or work on farms would think of as cruel. They do not take pleasure in these things, but regard them as a practical part of life. It is necessity to them. That does not speak of “wanton infliction of pain” to me.

So it does not grieve me to eat that beef, no. I do not think that cow died in vain, but in service to the human life she was made for. That is one more reason we refer to our food as “gifts from Thy (God’s) bounty.” My final answer is “I eat meat and I believe I am pro all life,” if by “pro all life” you mean “pro the dignity and respect of God’s creation, both human and animals, according to the laws laid down by His Church.”

That said, in the interest of honesty I’m actually a vegetarian with the rare exception. Also I eat meat when I can’t separate it from my main dishes as my husband is a carnivore. But it’s not a matter of conscience for me, only preference.

Thank you for your thoughtful response through a headache! — And while this is a large factor, there is however SO much more than just the suffering of animals that weighs on me, as I reflect on Catholic Social Teaching and food choice - it is the use of resources / the impact on the environment, land, air and water pollution, / the 16 lbs of grain and soy that it takes to produce 1 lb of beef - the 12 calories that it takes to produce 1 calorie of chicken — It seems that we can feed more people, given the limited resources of our world, work to ensure the future of the planet for our children and grand children - if we eliminate animals and their products from our diet -

I agree that for those who raise animals, hunt, farm - this connection may be much more difficult to make - but those of us who pick up clean little packages in the grocery story (that also had to be transported there) can be examining this choice in the context of our faith.

At one time Catholics had to struggle with issues of conscious related to equal rights - many were surrounded by people who had no problem with segregation - and even if it pricked their conscious many chose to remain silent, not to ‘rock the boat’ - others joined a movement to change how we value all people - and did so based upon their faith.

Today I believe we are faced with a choice (three times a day infact!) that is also about faith - our beautiful Catholic Social Teaching points to ways we can live with each other, and care for the world - it is about the way animals are treated and SO much more -on the second post on this thread I tried to go through the 7 points of CST and illustrate how I see these teachings point to a vegan diet / choices. It is a little frustrating when people assume that I am only talking about how animals are treated - but we all speak for a position we can defend I guess. I only want to invite people to consider this - it resonates so strongly with me, but I’ve been thinking about this now for a couple of years!