Pro ALL life -

[bbarrick8383]

I really do thank you for your concern - honestly - I am sure the cows you raise are much healthier to consume than those which are raised in factory farming where the have to be given such high doses of medication to keep them healthy before they can be slaughtered - However people have lived for generations in China as vegans and do quite well - when their children come to the US often the change to a western diet has very deleterious effects. (just one article: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6284830.stm)

bbarrick - I am guessing that the reason you post on these type of discussions about the ethical food issues is because you feel you can defend your point - and maybe because you feel you need to - this (on my part) is not an attack on your way of life - I raise the issues because it has value to me as a Catholic - and I hoped this forum would be a place where we could discuss this.

That study, said it was post-menopausal women and highest risk was with a BMI of 25. If I’m not mistaken, that’s a pretty chunky chinese person, right?

I post here to learn why you guys are vegan, offer my (name removed by moderator)ut and for the most part learn. I have no intention of becoming vegetarian or vegan for that matter. My family history proves that our diet is ok for us. I hope your diet is ok for you.

As for the grains, most cattle here in Oklahoma eat the natural grass that grows in the pasture. There are a lot of pastures that people do not keep cows on, they bale the hay a couple times a year and sell it to those who need to feed their cattle in the winter time when the natural grass is dormant. What they eat is not something a vegan would even be interested in. When you consider crop rotation, and how often you would have to change the type of crop, sometimes you even have to let a piece of land set for a year or so before you can replant on it. When cows use the same field every year, grains would not be a efficient alternative. There has to be a balance in all things.

 

[4elise]

That study, said it was post-menopausal women and highest risk was with a BMI of 25. If I’m not mistaken, that’s a pretty chunky chinese person, right?

I post here to learn why you guys are vegan, offer my (name removed by moderator)ut and for the most part learn. I have no intention of becoming vegetarian or vegan for that matter. My family history proves that our diet is ok for us. I hope your diet is ok for you.

As for the grains, most cattle here in Oklahoma eat the natural grass that grows in the pasture. There are a lot of pastures that people do not keep cows on, they bale the hay a couple times a year and sell it to those who need to feed their cattle in the winter time when the natural grass is dormant. What they eat is not something a vegan would even be interested in. When you consider crop rotation, and how often you would have to change the type of crop, sometimes you even have to let a piece of land set for a year or so before you can replant on it. When cows use the same field every year, grains would not be a efficient alternative. There has to be a balance in all things.

What else would you like to learn that you haven’t already heard on these posts?
For many it is health / for others it is the way animals are treated / for others it is the environmental issues - land, air and water pollution issues / for others it is the distribution of resources ---- for some (this would be me) it is all these AND how they fit with my faith and sense of responsibility as one person - one Catholic - on this planet, with a sense that my choices have to reflect this reality.

You may disagree with the conclusion that it is healthier to eat a plant based diet.
You may disagree that animals in factory farms are not treated in the way they should be.
You may disagree that raising animals for food causes pollution.
You may disagree that it takes a disproportionate use of resources to raise animals for consumption.
You may disagree Catholic Social Teaching points to consider these issues.
In fact, you may disagree with all this.

If you do - and are not open to any informaiton that points otherwise, there is really nothing else that I can share with you, nor do I think anyone else who has made this choice would be able to - you are not, as you say interested in making any changes yourself - so my question again, is then I guess I still don’t understand why this is a topic that continues to be something you feel the need to defend?

 

[4elise]

HEALTH:

So… maybe I can find enough information that you won’t think ‘tainted’ by the source that will give you an opportunity to consider the HEALTH reason for a vegan diet:

vegfamily.com/dietician/index.htm = this vegan dietician answers lots of questions about nutrition that you might want to know more about - if you have concerns about the health issues of a vegan diet.

thechinastudy.com/about.html = a pretty well known book (must admit I’ve not read it) that illustrates the benefit of a vegan diet

amazon.com/Diet-New-America-John-Robbins/dp/0915811812 - John Robbins does a good job outlining health benefits of a vegan diet

huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/on-cancer-and-a-vegetaria_b_46661.html - an article that has some info on cancer issues and also the use of arsenic!? in raising chickens…

so… these are some resources related to the vegan choice for health - and part of our Catholic Social Teaching from the USCCB: the measure of every institution is whether it threatens or enhances the life and dignity of the human person.

 

[4elise]

FACTORY FARMS

I know that people who raise their own animals (OR have access to locally grown sustainably produced cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, milk, eggs etc.) do not engage in the same practices - but EVEN if that number is as high as 20% - that means that more than 240,000,000 of us in the US purchase our food at a grocery story - and if purchasing animal protein - than that is a lot of beef, pork, poultry, dairy, eggs, that are coming from factory farms.

So… some links to factory farming information:

goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp - this video - Meet your Meat - for those of us who never see face to face the way animals are raised and slaughtered for our table - you can also get copies of this video to share.

Actually - Farm Sanctuary has some of the clearest and easiest to understand information on factory farming - I know the site may be considered to be from a really vege centered group - I still think it is the best place to get the facts:

downbound.com/Pork_s/462.htm

From the US Conference of Catholic Bishops: Care for God’s Creation
We show our respect for the Creator by our stewardship of creation. Care for the earth is not just an Earth Day slogan, it is a requirement of our faith. We are called to protect people and the planet, living our faith in relationship with all of God’s creation. This environmental challenge has fundamental moral and ethical dimensions that cannot be ignored.

We are stewards of creation - and this does have fundamental moral and ethical dimensions!

 

[4elise]

POLLUTION

Again - I am at this point only talking about where more than 240 million of us would get our food if we purchase animal products - however perhaps some does even apply to family farms to since animal agriculture produces byproducts that damage the environment…

nrdc.org/water/pollution/nspills.asp

mindfully.org/Farm/Antibiotics-Factory-Farming-Facts.htm

sierraclub.org/factoryfarms/

ecoworld.com/Home/articles2.cfm?TID=150

consumersunion.org/food/nrdcfactsw1298.htm

wsn.org/factoryfarm/factoryfarmpage.html

that’s a start!

So… again from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on our beautiful Catholic Social Teaching…

Care for God’s Creation
We show our respect for the Creator by our stewardship of creation. Care for the earth is not just an Earth Day slogan, it is a requirement of our faith. We are called to protect people and the planet, living our faith in relationship with all of God’s creation. This environmental challenge has fundamental moral and ethical dimensions that cannot be ignored.

 

[4elise]

DISPROPORTIONATE USE OF RESOURCES

veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/resources.html

I just found the most amazing resource - this one is loaded with information including PowerPoints - and lots of information on the issues of how much resources it takes to feed people an animal based diet / vs / a plant based diet

all-creatures.org/tytt/env-animalag.html

vegansociety.com/environment/land/ - a couple great excerpts:

In 1900 just over 10% of the total grain grown worldwide was fed to animals; by 1950 this figure had risen to over 20%; by the late 1990s it stood at around 45%. Over 60% of US grain is fed to livestock. [6]

Quite simply, we do not have enough land to feed everyone on an animal-based diet. So while 840 million people do not have enough food to live normal lives, we continue to waste two-thirds of agricultural land by obtaining only a small fraction of its potential calorific value.

 

[4elise]

So on these topics (Resources) from the USCCB:

Option for the Poor and Vulnerable
A basic moral test is how our most vulnerable members are faring. In a society marred by deepening divisions between rich and poor, our tradition recalls the story of the Last Judgment (Mt 25:31-46) and instructs us to put the needs of the poor and vulnerable first.

Solidarity
We are one human family whatever our national, racial, ethnic, economic, and ideological differences. We are our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers, wherever they may be. Loving our neighbor has global dimensions in a shrinking world. At the core of the virtue of solidarity is the pursuit of justice and peace. Pope Paul VI taught that “if you want peace, work for justice.”1 The Gospel calls us to be peacemakers. Our love for all our sisters and brothers demands that we promote peace in a world surrounded by violence and conflict.

 

[Highwayhound]

So on these topics (Resources) from the USCCB:

Option for the Poor and Vulnerable
A basic moral test is how our most vulnerable members are faring. In a society marred by deepening divisions between rich and poor, our tradition recalls the story of the Last Judgment (Mt 25:31-46) and instructs us to put the needs of the poor and vulnerable first.

Solidarity
We are one human family whatever our national, racial, ethnic, economic, and ideological differences. We are our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers, wherever they may be. Loving our neighbor has global dimensions in a shrinking world. At the core of the virtue of solidarity is the pursuit of justice and peace. Pope Paul VI taught that “if you want peace, work for justice.”1 The Gospel calls us to be peacemakers. Our love for all our sisters and brothers demands that we promote peace in a world surrounded by violence and conflict.

You might find this article of interest:

If You Want Justice, Work for Chastity

By Gregory R. Beabout and Randall Colton

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0807fea1.asp

God bless

 

[mpi]

PAGAN ALERT! PAGAN ALERT!

I hereby issue a pagan alert on this thread.

 

[4elise]

PAGAN ALERT! PAGAN ALERT!

I hereby issue a pagan alert on this thread.

What?

 

[4elise]

You might find this article of interest:

If You Want Justice, Work for Chastity

By Gregory R. Beabout and Randall Colton

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0807fea1.asp

God bless

Great article - sounds like an important book.

Chastity - just because one can - doesn’t mean one should! – perhaps that translates to our food choices as well!
Peace

 

[maryjk]

Thank you for your thoughtful response through a headache! — And while this is a large factor, there is however SO much more than just the suffering of animals that weighs on me, as I reflect on Catholic Social Teaching and food choice - it is the use of resources / the impact on the environment, land, air and water pollution, / the 16 lbs of grain and soy that it takes to produce 1 lb of beef - the 12 calories that it takes to produce 1 calorie of chicken — It seems that we can feed more people, given the limited resources of our world, work to ensure the future of the planet for our children and grand children - if we eliminate animals and their products from our diet

I guess I don’t buy into the “limited resources” of our world. Yes, there are people in the world starving. But is it because there isn’t enough food? Or is it because there are people in charge in those countries that cause the starvation?

More calories are spent/consumed raising chickens/cows than in feeding the grains directly to the people!

Thanks but no thanks. My diet is limited enough. Some of us can’t eat most of those grains.

 

[4elise]

I guess I don’t buy into the “limited resources” of our world. Yes, there are people in the world starving. But is it because there isn’t enough food? Or is it because there are people in charge in those countries that cause the starvation?
.

That is a good point - people “in charge” do have a great responsibility for their people - but economic pressures are often in force and our choices can drive those pressures. I thought this article did a good job giving more details on that issue:

earthsave.ca/articles/enviro/why_does.html

To produce a kilogram of grain-fed beef, it takes, on average, 10 kg of grain and 680 litres of water. Pigs require about 4 kg of grain to produce 1 kg of pork and chickens require 2 kg of grain to produce 1 kg of meat. In comparison, according to a study in California, 1 kg of tomatoes requires 190 litres of water, 1 kg of potatoes requires 198 litres of water, 1 kg of wheat requires 209 litres of water - but 1 kg of beef requires a whopping 43,500 litres of water. Even rice, which uses more water than any other grain, requires one tenth the water needed to produce meat.

In order to meet our demand for meat, millions of tonnes of grain are diverted to feed livestock. More than 1/3 of the world’s total grain harvest is fed to livestock. Much of this grain is** imported from developing countries where farmers are encouraged to use land to grow export crops for the West. Even during the famine of the mid 1980’s, Ethiopia was exporting grain that could have been used to feed its own people to the West - feed for livestock.**

Another requirement to raise livestock is land. **An equivalent amount of land can feed six times more people eating a plant-based diet than people eating a meat-based diet. **The North American meat industry therefore looks to the south for cheaper land, which has resulted in cattle ranching becoming a major cause of rainforest destruction in Central and South America. Ranchers clear forests and drain wetlands to graze cattle for export, or to grow feed for animals, instead of growing crops for local consumption. This results in the loss of trees and habitat, as well as many different species of plants, animals, and insects. Cattle ranching also affects North American land because it has a huge impact on soil erosion.

 

[bullfrog654]

im not in charge of anything actually however the ones in charge manipulate towards self interest. we intregate our selves in a good respect however. id suggest the ones manipulating have in whole to many goals starving the bread and wine in religion. we are suppose to not rech as children unfed by eating the bread and wine handed out in chuch for food we are to honour its true value.

 

[JamesRottnek]

The assertion that anyone who is not a vegan is in some way contributing to the starvation of anyone (I am not sure anyone in this thread has made such a claim, that I got the feeling at least one person did - and I have heard it elsewhere), simply because they eat meat, is completely unfounded. There is more than enough food as it is (even with meat eaters being factored in) for everyone on our planet to eat enough food to survive - the real problem causing starvation is that people tend to waste massive amounts of food in countries where it is plentiful. This is especially true if you consider that genetically modified foods can be used to create an abundance of food for people the world over (something that, I am sad to say, many people have convinced authorities in African countries to refuse to accept - thereby causing starvation).

 

[bullfrog654]

more so fishing i see.

satanics give evil to card hold members of church of satan to develope choice couldnt develope gaining faith like the government hope to develope by programming computers. The gaing faith procedure was through sin and a sore tooth and broken one at that. The gaing faith for computers procedure was based on providing a left alone but protected balance structure of the above satan image of which computers rely on as the holy roast. The procedure deleloped it self a form of faith through the question: how could god care so much to allow computers to endure such destruction towards gods chosen prophets. the gaining faith procedure developed going through material goods the image of the elephant man. With the question of manipulated torment, ‘we dont want to endure this alone’. i suspect they believe distance is a factor in seperating sin. however its lifes evolution of repetiousious sins. ex. chemical images are dim worlds such as mars where life once was, with the distance factor really being the speed of light from the sun or stars reaching earth. you can speed the distance of light by including that the back up is worlds that had life but the worlds dont exist anymore but can still be noticed in the stars.

nit to answer specifically i live in a basement dont have much information on the topic however if we cloaned fish in the ocean it would and could solve the worlds starvation problem

 

[bbarrick8383]

That is a good point - people “in charge” do have a great responsibility for their people - but economic pressures are often in force and our choices can drive those pressures. I thought this article did a good job giving more details on that issue:

earthsave.ca/articles/enviro/why_does.html

To produce a kilogram of grain-fed beef, it takes, on average, 10 kg of grain and 680 litres of water. Pigs require about 4 kg of grain to produce 1 kg of pork and chickens require 2 kg of grain to produce 1 kg of meat. In comparison, according to a study in California, 1 kg of tomatoes requires 190 litres of water, 1 kg of potatoes requires 198 litres of water, 1 kg of wheat requires 209 litres of water - but 1 kg of beef requires a whopping 43,500 litres of water. Even rice, which uses more water than any other grain, requires one tenth the water needed to produce meat.

In order to meet our demand for meat, millions of tonnes of grain are diverted to feed livestock. More than 1/3 of the world’s total grain harvest is fed to livestock. Much of this grain is** imported from developing countries where farmers are encouraged to use land to grow export crops for the West. Even during the famine of the mid 1980’s, Ethiopia was exporting grain that could have been used to feed its own people to the West - feed for livestock.**

Another requirement to raise livestock is land. **An equivalent amount of land can feed six times more people eating a plant-based diet than people eating a meat-based diet. **The North American meat industry therefore looks to the south for cheaper land, which has resulted in cattle ranching becoming a major cause of rainforest destruction in Central and South America. Ranchers clear forests and drain wetlands to graze cattle for export, or to grow feed for animals, instead of growing crops for local consumption. This results in the loss of trees and habitat, as well as many different species of plants, animals, and insects. Cattle ranching also affects North American land because it has a huge impact on soil erosion.

Is that factoring in crop rotation? Considering that not rotating properly, growing the same grain too much, or not growing a variety of grains that require different nutrients could leave a field useless.

I’m going to say that the numbers are a little off, if beef required that much water it would be impossible to provide enough water for a herd of cattle out of a 1 acre pond. We’ve ran cattle on the same property for years now, I’ve seen no sign of soil corrosion.

And, if you are starving and you are selling your food. Your priorities are messed up, why the heck would you do that?

 

[Sair]

The issue of factory farming and subsequent animal cruelty is not addressed in the Bible because it is a condition that is new to our times. We can look to the Bible for many answers–but here’s a new one that we need to figure out with the heads and hearts that God gave us. We were created in God’s image and given stewardship of this earth. And how good of a job are we doing with that?

*Dominence of the earth *means we beat it up and sully it? Dominence over animals mean that we slice, and dice, and torture them?

Some people say yes, even on the ambulence ride to the hospital.

Sad, but true. There are always going to be people who, until they are personally visited by very bad consequences that can only be put down to the way we treat the earth and our fellow animals, will continue to deny that humans have any responsibility for the rest of the world.

So Sair, health issues concerning animal product consumption, and ethical issues concerning agribusiness, are linked in an interesting way.

Do we ignore all of it? Focus on one part of it? Focus on all aspects of it?

I think that the topic should be viewed HOLISTICALLY.

Can we address just the ethical part of the equation? Yes, of course! But if we view the whole picture–other elements will emerge to perhaps help us to think deeper still.

By eating foods or producing foods that degrade our health–we are also disrepecting LIFE.

The holistic approach makes a lot of sense. If we look at the physiological make-up of humans, it is clear that we were not meant to be carnivores. We have teeth that can grind vegetable matter and intestines that are long enough to extract the nutrients from digesting plant matter. It should be clear from this alone that animal-based proteins are a supplement, not a staple, of human nutrition.

When you add this to the effects of mass production of meat, eggs and dairy (which marketing has convinced us are daily necessities) - both the environmental impact and the inhumane treatment of the animals involved - it does all add up to the idea that we could be doing a lot better.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Those reasons are the points of Catholic Social Teaching - (in green) and below that is what seems to me (yes my opinion - only capable of my own) points that I believe we can consider as it relates to our food choice as Catholics - I don’t know if you actually went through the links, or just assume because I have come to a different OPINION than you - they are not valid, or points worthy of consideration… if that is the case I guess there is no point in wasting your time:shrug:

You claim that your opinion are more in line with Catholic Social Teaching. This is your opinion backed by your opinion of Catholic Social Teaching. Your foundation is clearly built on sand.

You need to stop making this assertion because it can not be part of Truth as revealed by God thru his Church.

Feel free to claim that it is part of 4elise Social Teaching because that is all this is.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

A calorie is only a measurement of food energy - if an ‘omni’ was eating a 2000 calorie diet and become a vegan - they continue to eat a 2000 calorie vegan diet made up of beans, nuts, veggies, etc… - if they increase now to 3000 calorie vegan diet - and don’t off set that with 1000 calories of exercise they will become an overweight vegan

The point was if you can claim that vegans are more in line with Catholic Social Teaching for the lifestyle they lead, then I can claim that vegan that consume more calories than need to sustain life are NOT really living a better lifestyle according to the same criteria that you profess. Who sets the bar in your mind on what is an is not in line with Catholic Social Teaching, you or me. If it me, then no matter what, you eat to much. If it’s you then I consume to many resources by consuming meat.

My point is just as valid as yours. They are two extremes in the realm of diet. Why should we follow your idea as an extreme and not mine (of paring your diet down to next to nothing to eat) to a greater Catholic Social Teaching?