Pro choice but not Pro Abortion

[Calliso]

Each and every person is a uniquely created and loved child of God, made in His image. Your opinion of their importance is irrelevant and based on worldly standards.

The little people are the ones who keep everything running, who make the backdrop for the great people. That’s important. Bill Gates wouldn’t have been able to build his techno-empire if he had to worry about growing his own food or building his own house.

And once again, you completely ignored my request to address and deal in the LOGIC that has been offered in this thread!

I am trying to make a post but making a decent post does take time… And by the way I mean nothing important as nothing really life changing. Most people aren;t going to invent something new or bring world peace or whatever. They will just go about their lives like the rest of us.

 

[Belgarion]

And the chances are just as high that the next dictator and mass murderer would have been one of the ones that has been aborted. Most people grow up to be nothing and do nothing trully important in their lives. That is a harsh thing to say but it is true. We need to stop saying well only if some miracle child will be born and save us all or whatever. Most if not all great people did not come out of the womb as great people…they had to make themselves that way.

Kinda hard to do if you don’t make it out of the womb in the first place.

Plenty of people have used your argument, but its easiy refuted.

There are more people who do good that evil.
There are more people out there now who have done some service for their fellow man (From mowing an elderly neighbor’s lawn to finding a cure for a disease)

Perhaps Pro-abortionists don’t deserve to be called “pro-choice”
Simply because they prevent the choice between good and evil to take place.
That’s good for the devil, actually. He’d rather have a child die before it can choose good. He doesn’t get its soul, but its better than the child gaining more souls for Christ.

 

[Calliso]

Kinda hard to do if you don’t make it out of the womb in the first place.

Plenty of people have used your argument, but its easiy refuted.

There are more people who do good that evil.
There are more people out there now who have done some service for their fellow man (From mowing an elderly neighbor’s lawn to finding a cure for a disease)

Perhaps Pro-abortionists don’t deserve to be called “pro-choice”
Simply because they prevent the choice between good and evil to take place.
That’s good for the devil, actually. He’d rather have a child die before it can choose good. He doesn’t get its soul, but its better than the child gaining more souls for Christ.

But wait I thought we were talking about major great people here? Not just people becoming run of the mill/ average people. I wasn;t trying to say that most people are bad. I am aware thoguh that most people are more or less decent people.

 

[Belgarion]

But wait I thought we were talking about major great people here? Not just people becoming run of the mill/ average people. I wasn;t trying to say that most people are bad. I am aware thoguh that most people are more or less decent people.

Yes, but in today’s culture, how many people turn out to be murderers and dictators? How many turn out to be scientists, doctors, firemen, police officers, etc. People who save other’s lives.
In addition to those people are the ones who contributed to society through the arts. Directors, composers, painters,etc.

Therefore your argument, which I’ve come across before, is invalid.
Besides, abortion DOES kill run of the mill people as well. Is that OK JUST because they aren’t fully developed yet? No

I’m sorry, but none of your arguments in favor of any type of abortion will stand up to pure logic. It doesn’t stand a chance to logic AND faith.
One thing I don’t understand is why you are ignoring the scienctific evidence.
Are you having a had time seeing it? I can print it in bold if you want:thumbsup:

 

[Calliso]

Yes, but in today’s culture, how many people turn out to be murderers and dictators? How many turn out to be scientists, doctors, firemen, police officers, etc. People who save other’s lives.
In addition to those people are the ones who contributed to society through the arts. Directors, composers, painters,etc.

Therefore your argument, which I’ve come across before, is invalid.
Besides, abortion DOES kill run of the mill people as well. Is that OK JUST because they aren’t fully developed yet? No

I’m sorry, but none of your arguments in favor of any type of abortion will stand up to pure logic. It doesn’t stand a chance to logic AND faith.
One thing I don’t understand is why you are ignoring the scienctific evidence.
Are you having a had time seeing it? I can print it in bold if you want:thumbsup:

Well the truth is you have made some very good points so have others. And it is making me reconsider some things. But I knew the stuff about fetal development before and I trully still donlt have the prolife viewpoint of things.

 

[estesbob]

Well the truth is you have made some very good points so have others. And it is making me reconsider some things. But I knew the stuff about fetal development before and I trully still donlt have the prolife viewpoint of things.

The pro-life viewpoint springs form a belief that the right to life is absolute-regardless of stage of development. ALL rights stem from the right to life. From reading your posts your support of abortion seems to stem from empathy for the Mother. Having counseled numerous women considering an abortion I have some empathy for them also. However as I always gently told them they were looking at a long term “solution” to a short term “problem”. I would tell them 9 months from now they can be back to 'normal" and a loving childless couple will be made complete. a win win situation. No good EVER comes out of an abortion. It always results in a dead child and a woman who is most likely emotionally scarred for life.

 

[catharina]

1. Is it wrong that I believe woman should have the choice to have an abortion even though I would never EVER choose let my girlfriend (for example) get one.
2. As an American I love this country for it being free of choice. Not everyone in this country is a Christian.
3. I would never ask for someone to get an abortion (if it came to it, I would even take care of the baby my self), but I still want other people to have that choice.

Any opinion on this?

1. Yes. It’s wrong.
2. If the non-Christians decide to rape-kill at will, we should make that legal too?
3. If you don’t object to abortion, you support abortion. One man, one vote sort of thing.

 

[Belgarion]

The pro-life viewpoint springs form a belief that the right to life is absolute-regardless of stage of development. ALL rights stem from the right to life. From reading your posts your support of abortion seems to stem from empathy for the Mother. Having counseled numerous women considering an abortion I have some empathy for them also. However as I always gently told them they were looking at a long term “solution” to a short term “problem”. I would tell them 9 months from now they can be back to 'normal" and a loving childless couple will be made complete. a win win situation. No good EVER comes out of an abortion. It always results in a dead child and a woman who is most likely emotionally scarred for life.

Exactly:thumbsup:

THe main complaint I hear from people is that they either :
A. Don’t want to raise the child.
or
B. They don’t want anyone to know they got pregnant, and therefore had sex.

Reason B is childish and immature. Don’t have sex if you don’t want the result.

Option A is easily done away with when the child is put up for adoption.

The only other reason I can think of is the birthing process itself.
The fear of pain is understandable, but c’mon! Learn to deal with it. Running away from it shows an extreme lack of maturity.
But perhaps they’re afraid of something else…perhaps they know if they see the baby, they’ll wnt to keep it.

Either way, you’re STILL looking at three pointless reasons for having an abortion. Even by logical standards

 

[Calliso]

None of you pro-choicers have addressed this post at all, or any of the other LOGIC thrown your way. Care to anytime soon?

Calliso… I am having a really hard time with your “an 8 week old fetus is no big deal” thing. Wanna know why? I have an ultrasound scan of one of my daughters at 6 weeks gestation. You can clearly see her head, arms, legs… at only 6 weeks.

Why does she have less right to live, as a human created in God’s image, at one stage than at another? This has nothing to do with legality, it has to do with morality, and they are different things. The fact that you think it would have been perfectly acceptable for me to kill her at the time of the first picture, but not at the time of the second picture (last week) just shows how flawed your logic is.

These pictures show the SAME PERSON! The only difference between them is about six years of time.

Yes but a 6 year old child is far different from a 8 week old embyro. The embyro at that stage may look vaguely human and carry much of the same organs or at least basic not totally formed ones…for some organs such as the brain and nervous system. While the brain stem develops early on much/most other brain development does not occur until much much later in the pregnancy.
A embyro at that stage is not selfaware nor does it have any emotions or capacity to feel any sort of physical feeling. And unlike a brain dead person from instance it has not even developed that ablity yet.

Your 6 year old child or perhaps even the 6-7 month old unborn child does have that though. Your 6 year old can feel. both physically and emotionally. Your child is also both aware and selfaware. Your child can also suffer and feel joy. Also unlike your already born child the embyro is directly dependent on you…and unlike your own child you can;t just give it to another person to take care of him/her if you do not wish to.

I guess I have a problem with forcing women to carry something inside themselves against their will that can effect their lives in such huge ways. It isn;t just a black and white thing like she is pregnant for 9 monthes and then can just hand her baby off to someone else. With each pregnancy a woman is risking her health and even in some cases her life. Not to mention risk of other things which will differ from person to person But losing your job, getting thrown out of your home by your parents. Not to mention probably many other things.

Course I do believe that prevention is the key if you donlt get pregnant you wonlt have to deal with the what should I do question in the first place. Course that doesn;t change the fact that people make mistake/do stupid stuff. That doesn;t change the fact that they do and pregnancy can be a life changing thing.

 

[estesbob]

Yes but a 6 year old child is far different from a 8 week old embyro. The embyro at that stage may look vaguely human and carry much of the same organs or at least basic not totally formed ones…for some organs such as the brain and nervous system. While the brain stem develops early on much/most other brain development does not occur until much much later in the pregnancy.

Of course the same could be said for the severly autistic or the Alzheimer sufferer. but more importantly the only difference between the 8 year old and the unborn child is their stage of development. both are seperate distinct human life.

A embyro at that stage is not selfaware nor does it have any emotions or capacity to feel any sort of physical feeling. And unlike a brain dead person from instance it has not even developed that ablity yet.

So? Will it beocme self aware if not killed?

Your 6 year old child or perhaps even the 6-7 month old unborn child does have that though. Your 6 year old can feel. both physically and emotionally. Your child is also both aware and selfaware. Your child can also suffer and feel joy. Also unlike your already born child the embyro is directly dependent on you…and unlike your own child you can;t just give it to another person to take care of him/her if you do not wish to.

So we define life by how one “feels”

I guess I have a problem with forcing women to carry something inside themselves against their will that can effect their lives in such huge ways. It isn;t just a black and white thing like she is pregnant for 9 monthes and then can just hand her baby off to someone else. With each pregnancy a woman is risking her health and even in some cases her life. Not to mention risk of other things which will differ from person to person But losing your job, getting thrown out of your home by your parents. Not to mention probably many other things.

I really think it is kind of insulting to women to refer to pregnancy as being "forced to carry "something(AKA a child) inside her.And yes she can be pregnant for 9 months and hand her child off. Does losing ones job or getting thrown out of your home jusify killng your 7 year old? What other social problems do you believe should be solved by killing ones children?

Course I do believe that prevention is the key if you donlt get pregnant you wonlt have to deal with the what should I do question in the first place. Course that doesn;t change the fact that people make mistake/do stupid stuff. That doesn;t change the fact that they do and pregnancy can be a life changing thing.

Preganancy can be a life changing thing. Abortion is a life enidng thing

 

[catharina]

Of course the same could be said for the severly autistic or the Alzheimer sufferer. but more importantly the only difference between the 8 year old and the unborn child is their stage of development. both are seperate distinct human life.

So? Will it beocme self aware if not killed?

So we define life by how one “feels”

I really think it is kind of insulting to women to refer to pregnancy as being "forced to carry "something(AKA a child) inside her.And yes she can be pregnant for 9 months and hand her child off. Does losing ones job or getting thrown out of your home jusify killng your 7 year old? What other social problems do you believe should be solved by killing ones children?

Preganancy can be a life changing thing. Abortion is a life enidng thing

Strong statements, bob. I agree with ALL of them.

It’s an issue of absolutes. The eternal absolute is God. He shares His “absolute-ness” and creativity with us in our existence, in the existence of children: each child un-repeatable and irrefutable in the plan of God’s love. When some ignore absolutes, then yeah - anything goes.

It’s a heartbreak. It should be a crime to kill God’s eternal creation, even if tiny and unborn.

Each of us is a former fetus.

 

[Calliso]

Of course the same could be said for the severly autistic or the Alzheimer sufferer. but more importantly the only difference between the 8 year old and the unborn child is their stage of development. both are seperate distinct human life.

So? Will it beocme self aware if not killed?

So we define life by how one “feels”

I really think it is kind of insulting to women to refer to pregnancy as being "forced to carry "something(AKA a child) inside her.And yes she can be pregnant for 9 months and hand her child off. Does losing ones job or getting thrown out of your home jusify killng your 7 year old? What other social problems do you believe should be solved by killing ones children?

Preganancy can be a life changing thing. Abortion is a life enidng thing

Assuming nothing goes wrong yes it will become selfaware. I am not defining life by what one feels…I donlt know how you got that idea but hmm ok. I realize a embryo/fetus/unborn child is alive at all the stages.

I donlt think all pregnancy involves being forced to carry something. But if abortion is made completely illegal then short of getting a dangerous illegal abortion women who do not want to carry their pregnancies will be forced. And that is something cannot donlt want to imagine.

I donlt think people SHOULD kill their unborn children. I wish abortion was a rarer thing. But I dontl think making it illegal will solve that problem either. Also I would have to find it again but pretty sure a study was done that suggests/shows that abortion rates are very similar in countries where it is legal as where it is illegal.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I realize a embryo/fetus/unborn child is alive at all the stages.

This is the really sad part. I can at least understand pro-choicers who really believe that the baby is NOT a baby until some magical date… but to KNOW that it is a human baby and still think people should have the legal right to murder them?

I donlt think all pregnancy involves being forced to carry something. But if abortion is made completely illegal then short of getting a dangerous illegal abortion women who do not want to carry their pregnancies will be forced. And that is something cannot donlt want to imagine.
**
Why not? Let’s imagine…

So some women will be “forced” to carry their babies to term… so they may suffer for 9 months. Then they can get back to their “normal” life when that baby is safe with a loving family. Or during that 9 months of going through the awe and wonder of having a new life growing inside of them they may actually come to want and love that little baby…

Do you have any idea how many women are forced by their boyfriends/husbands/parents to get an abortion NOW simply because it is legal and “no big deal”???**

I donlt think people SHOULD kill their unborn children. I wish abortion was a rarer thing. But I dontl think making it illegal will solve that problem either. Also I would have to find it again but pretty sure a study was done that suggests/shows that abortion rates are very similar in countries where it is legal as where it is illegal.
**
Statistics don’t matter. What a society will and will not tolerate does matter. We need to make people aware that abortion kills babies. We need to make people aware that all human life is valuable and sacred. We need to take a stand that murdering the innocent is WRONG. Otherwise we will move on to legalized euthanasia for our sick, our elderly, and our disabled.

I wonder how many people who are pro choice have ever actually taken the time to find out exatly what happens to a baby during an abortion… what happens to the mother after an abortion… seen pictures…heard testimony…

I am all for women’s rights. But any female who would deliberately and knowingly choose to kill her own child (without coercion or ignorance) will never be viewed as a woman by me. To me that is pure evil.
**

 

[Calliso]

Feanaro_s_Wife:
Yeah you make a good point about how women are sometimes forced to have abortions or coerced into it harshly. The point of mentioning the study was to point out that making abortion illegal does not make a huge difference in the number of abortions that actually occur.

And yes I have taken the time to read about abortion procedures before. And I have read testimonies from women with both positive and negative experiences with abortion. And yes I have seen pictures.

I mean I can kinda see where you all are coming from. I am just not feeling the same you know? Though you all are making good points…I just don;t know what to think anymore…

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I mean I can kinda see where you all are coming from. I am just not feeling the same you know? Though you all are making good points…I just don;t know what to think anymore…

I pray that the Holy Spirit is opening your heart and letting you question and doubt. You sound like a good person who is just a little confused with this issue. God bless you…

 

[Denae]

Abortion is murder. Simply put. I can choose to aim a gun and shoot and kill someone, just as a woman can choose to abort her baby, both are evil, both are wrong and both are murder. The problem is that the latter is legal.

 

[duskyjewel]

A embyro at that stage is not selfaware

Neither is a newborn, 2 month old, 6 month old, 18 month old… at what point is it not OK to kill them? If you are using self-aware as your marker, it is OK to kill children until they are 4 or 5 years old!

Also unlike your already born child the embyro is directly dependent on you…

Again, newborn, 2 month old, 6 month old, 18 month old, 3 year old. All these children are still completely dependent upon their parents. They can’t get food or clothes for themselves. They don’t have the judgement to recognize threats and protect themselves… if you use this as your marker, again, it is OK to kill children until they are 9 or 10!

I guess I have a problem with forcing women to carry something inside themselves against their will that can effect their lives in such huge ways.

Oh PUH-LEASE! If a woman truly desires not to get pregnant, then she should not have sex. Period. And especially since the vast majority of women having abortions are not married, they shouldn’t be having sex anyway. If no one forced her to have sex, then no one is forcing her to carry a baby. She made that choice the moment she took her clothes off and got into the bed!

 

[catharina]

Yeah you make a good point about how women are sometimes forced to have abortions or coerced into it harshly. The point of mentioning the study was to point out that making abortion illegal does not make a huge difference in the number of abortions that actually occur. …

The other extreme is China - where the government decides who must have abortions.

(With laws in place in this country banning abortions -until the 1960s- there were FEW abortions here. No one disputes that.)

 

[Calliso]

The other extreme is China - where the government decides who must have abortions.

(With laws in place in this country banning abortions -until the 1960s- there were FEW abortions here. No one disputes that.)

Are there any actual numbers or estimates though? Just curious, cause trust me I donlt think there has been a claim made in the world yet that hasn;t been disputed…

Though there is some good news though in that study assuming I read it right…abortion rates have declined in the past several years worldwide.

 

[marietta]

“Oh PUH-LEASE!,” exclaims Catharina. “If a woman truly desires not to get pregnant, then she should not have sex. Period.”

“If no one forced her to have sex, then no one is forcing her to carry a baby. She made that choice the moment she took her clothes off and got into the bed!”

What is Catharina’s view of rape, its consequences, its aftereffects?

Curious,

marietta