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Calliso
Guest
To be fair I think she is specifically talking in this situation about situation where the woman CHOSE to have sex.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**Yes, and to be fair the post is from Duskyjewel NOT Catharina:thumbsup:
And even in cases of rape why would we want to traumatize a woman with a violent act against her unborn baby and her body after she had just been traumatized by a violent act???
There are women who adopt out children that are conceived during a rape. And there are some especially strong women who keep, raise, and love those babies… they see it as something good coming from something evil. Love being created from hate.
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catharina
Guest
You’re clearly confused.
I’m Catharina and I’ve made no such statements - in my entire life.
I ran a pro-life residential/employment program for pregnant women in the Midwest in the 1980s. I know that some of those women were pregnant as a result of rape and/or incest. Would you like to begin again? What’s your point? Did you have a question?
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estesbob
Guest
And yet you still support killing them?
Unfortunately what you would imagine is a myth foisted on the unsuspecting by those who make money killing children. The CDC estimates that in the years prior to Roe at the most 400 women a year died from illegal abortions. That is not a whole lot more than die today from leagl abortions.
I know of no study. What is a documented fact is that the number of abortions in this country increased from aproximately 400.000 abprtions a year prior to Roe to 1.6 million a year within 3 years of Roe being imposed on the country.
With all due respect Callisso you are basing your opinion on “facts” that simply are not ture.
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lauramelissa
Guest
The problem we seem to be encountering here is that we’re attempting to hold all people to very similar standards and apply what some can do to all scenarios.
Only the woman who is raped can determine what she can handle. Just as people vary in what they can handle on an ordinary basis, rape victims also vary on what outcomes they can live with. I don’t think that is an unreasonable assumption; so I don’t see how it is possible to say that because some women adopt babies who were conceived in rape and some rape victims raise the children, that everyone who is raped must fall into one of those two categories. I applaud rape victims who carry out their pregnancies for their extreme bravery, but I don’t try to compare them to rape victims who don’t. Remember that most rape victims don’t make dinner conversation of the crime committed against them, so it would seem that having an abortion and then attempting to carry on a normal life with very few friends or family being aware of the attack committed is also a difficult path.
I’m sure someone will take my post and re-write it to (attempt to) make my argument justify killing a baby outside the womb, an elderly person, etc.
As I stated earlier (and was somewhat disappointed that no one really replied to), admonishments of “the choice is when you decide to have sex” is a flimsy argument to rely upon. Take the rape scenario for instance: if a woman is raped, she’s not choosing anything, so where is her imperative to not have an abortion?
I’ll also be blunt and say that I don’t think habitual drug users are doing anyone any favors by possibly subjecting an innocent human to nine months of absorbing toxins into their systems. I know of a girl in my community who was using drugs and had an abortion. Was it a happy outcome? Of course not. Was she going to clean up her act? Nope, still hasn’t, and the thought that she could have been pregnant and possibly dooming a child to a life of fetal alcohol syndrome or addicted to cocaine disgusts me.
Abortion is circumstantial. It is simply impossible to round up every case and stamp it right or wrong because it is not a black and white issue. As long as abortion is legal, there will be women who are deemed by outsiders as able to give birth to and/or raise a child by outsiders. You will be right about some of these women, but you won’t know who they are, because you don’t see the world through their eyes. So should we make abortion illegal because some women *might *not have a good enough reason to have one?
When we get rid of the death penalty because some of the accused might be innocent, then maybe I’ll agree.
Only the woman who is raped can determine what she can handle. Just as people vary in what they can handle on an ordinary basis, rape victims also vary on what outcomes they can live with. I don’t think that is an unreasonable assumption; so I don’t see how it is possible to say that because some women adopt babies who were conceived in rape and some rape victims raise the children, that everyone who is raped must fall into one of those two categories. I applaud rape victims who carry out their pregnancies for their extreme bravery, but I don’t try to compare them to rape victims who don’t. Remember that most rape victims don’t make dinner conversation of the crime committed against them, so it would seem that having an abortion and then attempting to carry on a normal life with very few friends or family being aware of the attack committed is also a difficult path.
I’m sure someone will take my post and re-write it to (attempt to) make my argument justify killing a baby outside the womb, an elderly person, etc.
As I stated earlier (and was somewhat disappointed that no one really replied to), admonishments of “the choice is when you decide to have sex” is a flimsy argument to rely upon. Take the rape scenario for instance: if a woman is raped, she’s not choosing anything, so where is her imperative to not have an abortion?I’ll also be blunt and say that I don’t think habitual drug users are doing anyone any favors by possibly subjecting an innocent human to nine months of absorbing toxins into their systems. I know of a girl in my community who was using drugs and had an abortion. Was it a happy outcome? Of course not. Was she going to clean up her act? Nope, still hasn’t, and the thought that she could have been pregnant and possibly dooming a child to a life of fetal alcohol syndrome or addicted to cocaine disgusts me.
Abortion is circumstantial. It is simply impossible to round up every case and stamp it right or wrong because it is not a black and white issue. As long as abortion is legal, there will be women who are deemed by outsiders as able to give birth to and/or raise a child by outsiders. You will be right about some of these women, but you won’t know who they are, because you don’t see the world through their eyes. So should we make abortion illegal because some women *might *not have a good enough reason to have one?
When we get rid of the death penalty because some of the accused might be innocent, then maybe I’ll agree.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
The problem we seem to be encountering here is that we’re attempting to hold all people to very similar standards and apply what some can do to all scenarios.
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What you are attempting to hold all people to is relativism… different rules for different people in different situations. Something can be objectively wrong. It is therefore wrong in ALL circumstances.**
Only the woman who is raped can determine what she can handle.
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That is like saying that only a mom of an infant can determine what she can handle while she is suffering postpartum depression and a husband who up and left her. In her case maybe she should be allowed to murder her newborn because she can’t handle it.
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Just as people vary in what they can handle on an ordinary basis, rape victims also vary on what outcomes they can live with. I don’t think that is an unreasonable assumption; so I don’t see how it is possible to say that because some women adopt babies who were conceived in rape and some rape victims raise the children, that everyone who is raped must fall into one of those two categories.
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Those are the only two moral options. People go through horrible things in life all of the time. They get through them. The death of a loved one. A painful or debilitating illness. They get help and support from loved ones and friends, and sometimes strangers… they go through the hard times because they can’t go around them. **
I applaud rape victims who carry out their pregnancies for their extreme bravery, but I don’t try to compare them to rape victims who don’t. Remember that most rape victims don’t make dinner conversation of the crime committed against them, so it would seem that having an abortion and then attempting to carry on a normal life with very few friends or family being aware of the attack committed is also a difficult path.
I’m sure someone will take my post and re-write it to (attempt to) make my argument justify killing a baby outside the womb, an elderly person, etc.
They are all related:shrug: I am not rewriting your post but asking where you draw the line since there are no black and whites?
As I stated earlier (and was somewhat disappointed that no one really replied to), admonishments of “the choice is when you decide to have sex” is a flimsy argument to rely upon. Take the rape scenario for instance: if a woman is raped, she’s not choosing anything, so where is her imperative to not have an abortion?
A cancer sufferer did not choose cancer. A widow did not choose to have their spouse die. A victim of a natural disaster did not choose to have their home destroyed. Bad things happen. That never justifies committing an evil act.
I’ll also be blunt and say that I don’t think habitual drug users are doing anyone any favors by possibly subjecting an innocent human to nine months of absorbing toxins into their systems.
Of course what they are doing is wrong. But there are people ready and willing to love and help those children through life. Those children do not deserve to be murdered because of their mother’s poor choices and/or lifestyle. Life is life. We ALL have a right to it.
I know of a girl in my community who was using drugs and had an abortion. Was it a happy outcome? Of course not. Was she going to clean up her act? Nope, still hasn’t, and the thought that she could have been pregnant and possibly dooming a child to a life of fetal alcohol syndrome or addicted to cocaine disgusts me.
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But murdering an innocent child does not disgust you? They BOTH disgust me. But I would not say it is ok to commit murder because of the alternative.**
Abortion is circumstantial. It is simply impossible to round up every case and stamp it right or wrong because it is not a black and white issue.
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According to who? God is pretty clear on the subject. If one does not believe in God then it will be tough to argue the sacredness of all human life because they do not believe in the sacred.
Again I ask… which other of the 10 Commandments is it ok to ignore if we feel there is enough justification? Can I steal from you or commit adultery with your husband if I have a good enough reason?
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When we get rid of the death penalty because some of the accused might be innocent, then maybe I’ll agree.
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One doesn’t have to precede the other. I believe we should get rid of the death penalty precisely because I think that all life is sacred and only God should make the decision of who should live and who shouldn’t. Why should the potentially guilty prisoner have MORE right to life than the always innocent baby?**
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Belgarion
Guest
the infallible Church has spoken. It decides when abortions are necessary, and its only when the mother and child are threatened. (OR even just the mother, I believe)
But for some reason, they’d rather have a traumatic abortion than give birth and adopt? It all comes down to fear of responsibility, or fear of perhaps love.
Flimsy?I’m sure someone will take my post and re-write it to (attempt to) make my argument justify killing a baby outside the womb, an elderly person, etc.
You’re taking an act which has two purposes, Bonding and babies, and turning it into a mockery. Sex is procreative, not recreative, and abortions give people further cause to mistreat it.
In cases of rape, however, you have a woman who was violated by a man. If a child comes from that, why should the child (who has a soul, and is developed, and will grow up) suffer for the sins of his father? You’re taking away the only good thing that can come from rape! New life! If your mother was raped by some man, and she chose not to have an abortion, and raised you to be who you are today. Then you find your purpose in life, with a career and a spouse who loves you very much. Then YOU have children who grow up and give you such happiness. THEY grow up and have children etc etc. Ask all your descendants this:
“Would you have rather had my mother get an abortion because she was raped?”
Uhh…I think I’ll know their answer. I’ll know your spouse’s answer, too!
Abortion not only takes away the NOW, it takes away the future!
Then she shouldn’t have sex. Uh…and she shouldn’t be stupid. She should be put in jail, too. Drugs = illegal, and for a good reason. Like the one you listed. However, I guess its OK to deprive a child of life because not only was his father an idiot, but his mother as well.
It IS a black and white issue.
You’re trying to impose a gray area in there, when there’s not!
There is no good reason to kill an unborn child, unless someone’s life is threatened! Regardless, a majority of abortions are NOT for “good reasons”.
Ridiculous reasons like drug addicted babies etc are not solved by killing the child! The mother doesn’t suddenly get clean because she doesn’t have to! If she gets pregnant, guess what? Abortion! No responisibility whatsoever.
You’re blaming the situation on the only innocent, and not realizing the true problem with THAT one.
NEVER compare the death penalty with Abortions.
Unborn children have committed no crime!
To say otherwise has to be the most foul thing I’ve ever heard.
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Lariena
Guest
To me it is very simple… it boils down to who do I trust and believe in… God or our politicians? The issues of morality versus legality always blur these topics. However, legality is determined by the actions of men who create and enact laws and of course those who vote on them. Morality is determined by what is good and just in the eyes of God. If all men (and women) were moral, I doubt there would be need for a legal system. As a Catholic, I believe that I am called to follow God’s laws. Simply because man says that something is “legal” it should not merely be accepted as right. I feel I am still expected by God to consider whether or not it is according to His Law. Abortion is against God’s Law. It is evil.
In the instance of rape, I believe and trust that God has a plan for each of our lives. I believe He knows what each of us will do and what each of us will face. Even with the free will He gave us, He already knows the outcome. I believe it is up to each of us to take all that He hands us and deal with it in the way that He would have us. I can not think of a single situation where I feel like God would say “it is OK to kill this child.” Each of us have crosses to bear.
Just my very humble two cents…
In the instance of rape, I believe and trust that God has a plan for each of our lives. I believe He knows what each of us will do and what each of us will face. Even with the free will He gave us, He already knows the outcome. I believe it is up to each of us to take all that He hands us and deal with it in the way that He would have us. I can not think of a single situation where I feel like God would say “it is OK to kill this child.” Each of us have crosses to bear.
Just my very humble two cents…
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Belgarion
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P
Pong
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Belgarion,
Maybe you should try to understand what the Church actually teaches before trying to tell others. You’ve made a couple of statements that are downright unsound theologically.
And before someone decides to have a go at me for the umpteenth time about “how dare I call myself a Catholic when…” I would challenge anyone to find a post of mine where I have incorrectly stated what the Church teaches. I have not; instead I have made my own beliefs known and not once have I attempted to justify them with doctrine.
Maybe you should try to understand what the Church actually teaches before trying to tell others. You’ve made a couple of statements that are downright unsound theologically.
And before someone decides to have a go at me for the umpteenth time about “how dare I call myself a Catholic when…” I would challenge anyone to find a post of mine where I have incorrectly stated what the Church teaches. I have not; instead I have made my own beliefs known and not once have I attempted to justify them with doctrine.
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Belgarion
Guest
Such as?
Its pretty interesting that you’re the one who points something like that out and no one else does. So you know more about the Church’s teachings than me even though you don’t follow them?
heh
But you never admit that what you believe is sinful.
You’re fooling yourself by denying it. You have not tried to justify your beliefs with doctrine because doctrine DOES NOT support them.
Doctrine places you in a state of Mortal Sin at the moment.
May God have mercy on you, and may all of us here pray for the fate of your soul.
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lauramelissa
Guest
No, if I were a relativist, I wouldn’t be distinguishing abortion as a case where it is difficult to define an absolute. Furthermore, if I were arguing for relativism, I’d be saying that abortion was “okay” in relation to a certain culture or society. You seem to be under the impression that I think it’s somehow an easy choice… it’s not, which is why it’s not black and white. Is killing objectively wrong? Does this mean that all cases of killing are wrong?
That is like saying that only a mom of an infant can determine what she can handle while she is suffering postpartum depression and a husband who up and left her. In her case maybe she should be allowed to murder her newborn because she can’t handle it.
Er… not really. For you, the choice seems to come from deciding to have sex. For me, the choice comes from deciding to have a child. If you decide to have children, you have an obligation to care for them. This will be the second time I’ve said how nice it would be if everyone went into sex prepared for potential children, but the cold hard fact is they don’t, and we can argue what they “should” do all we want - and I think we can agree that telling people “don’t have sex” doesn’t work very well.
Those are the only two moral options. People go through horrible things in life all of the time. They get through them. The death of a loved one. A painful or debilitating illness. They get help and support from loved ones and friends, and sometimes strangers… they go through the hard times because they can’t go around them.
The death of a loved one and illness are terrible ordeals - no disagreement there. But I fail to see how you can compare them to another human being forcing themselves on another and impregnating them - a complete violation of personhood. It also seems that many here think abortion is traumatizing… If so, how is it “the easy way out”? You say those are the only two moral options. If I think there is only one moral option - to give birth to and raise the baby in all circumstances, is that valid? Of course not. It seems somewhat contradictory to me that the Church claims God gives people free will and then expects them all to behave by the same set of guidelines…
They are all related I am not rewriting your post but asking where you draw the line since there are no black and whites?
I already explained a bit earlier in this post, but I’ll reiterate and say I draw the line when someone decides to have a child, not when they decide to have sex, because realistically not all people (not even by a long shot) decide to have children when they decide to have sex. I know this is considered terrible in Catholicism, but to me it makes more sense to realize no matter how many times I or anyone else says “don’t do that” it’s not going to fix anything.
A cancer sufferer did not choose cancer. A widow did not choose to have their spouse die. A victim of a natural disaster did not choose to have their home destroyed. Bad things happen. That never justifies committing an evil act.
But I would not say it is ok to commit murder because of the alternative.
Like I said - it’s not a happy choice either way. The girl in question was going to keep doing what she was doing regardless of her pregnancy - she made that crystal clear. Everyone has the right to come into the world healthy and wanted. That baby was going to have a pretty slim chance at both of those given her trajectory at the time (and her current actions).
I like what you say about the potentially guilty prisoner - it’s a very valid point.
Cancer, death, and natural disasters are not the same as rapists. The aforementioned, while terrible, are not sentient beings who go after their victims out of their own selfishness.
Life is life. We ALL have a right to it.
I agree - a healthy one, too.
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juhothenero
Guest
pro choice catholics, please ask Benedictus XVI what he thinks about pro choice. If he disagrees then that is probably it for the matter. While one is catholic is quite easy to know what is the truth, just submit a letter to the vatican city.
Then one has to choose wether to be in catholic faith or not. Simple issue no use to fight over here
Then one has to choose wether to be in catholic faith or not. Simple issue no use to fight over here
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juhothenero
Guest
But this video probably says enough: youtube.com/watch?v=kv3MRyKfEHA
I suppose if one disargrees it would not be useful to call oneself a catholic since catholic church has one thruth and that truth is not for individual to choose but for Holy Father and his pishobs to teach on matters of morals and theology.
You catholics should be clad you have that one Truth since as a lutheran it is easy to notice how multiple thuths affect the teachings of a church is a terrible manner.
Catholic morals seems not to be individual choice like lutheran as an example.
I suppose if one disargrees it would not be useful to call oneself a catholic since catholic church has one thruth and that truth is not for individual to choose but for Holy Father and his pishobs to teach on matters of morals and theology.
You catholics should be clad you have that one Truth since as a lutheran it is easy to notice how multiple thuths affect the teachings of a church is a terrible manner.
Catholic morals seems not to be individual choice like lutheran as an example.
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agapewolf
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Pong
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You said:
This is incorrect. The Church does not allow for abortion under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
You also said:
This flies in the face of what the Church has to say about the unitive aspect of the marital embrace.
Maybe because I’m the only one that noticed?
Yes, it would seem that I do. It would also seem that you are a very young person, perhaps not yet out of high school since you referenced an AP biology class. For future reference, if one wants to cite an academic textbook as a reference for some fact, one must properly cite the book itself, not make a vague reference to “an AP biology book.” (Just one of those little things I picked up along the way to my Ph.D)
My point was that I never attempted to pass my beliefs off as Catholic doctrine; you’ve interjected a seperate point which would properly be called a “red herring.”
You’re wasting your keystrokes, although I will say that these “salvation tirades” as I’ve taken to calling them are providing some laughs for my fellow academics.
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juhothenero
Guest
That is the problem with you. You are too proud about your education to notice that there has been truth around for 2000 years and it does not need to be re-invented.
Find it funny you are here to talk about these issues though. Seems a bit pointless if you do not believe them. There are a lot of Lutherans out there with a point of view of re-inventing the truth, maybe they would be a kind of people to associate for you.
If one does not believe what the church teaches it seems pointless to go to church. Especially if you know what is teached and then deny it, seems a little risky.
Though from a scientific point of view that baby in the womb is still a baby, there is know way to academically, logically or medically deny the fact. And it is developed enough to be alive human. Another fact, since it is alive as we can see from the fact that it is growing. Basically pro choice and pro abortion is just a bad opinion with no real proof
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fix
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Not blaming you specifically, but it would seem the argument you use is relativistic.
That something is not an easy choice does not mean there is no objective correct way to act in this circumstance. It only means it is hard to act rightly.
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estesbob
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I’m writing the Bishop letting them know I’m leaving at the Catholic Church. I will no longer participate in the pro-life movement. The idea that academics are laughing at me is just too much to take.
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catharina
Guest
On second thought, bob, simply go ahead and applaud pong on his ph.d. That was his point.
Wasn’t it? (Vanity,. vanity and all is vanity.)
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