Pro-choice Catholic Arguement Concerning Infallibility

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It is common for Catholic pro-life advocates to claim that teaching on abortion is infallible. Can somebody please explain to me why this Pro-choice advocate has written the following. I’d like you to prove this person wrong, because his or her interpretation of infallibility suggests that I have been waking around with a false understanding of infallibility. If that is the case, then this will greatly effect how I view abortion as a moral evil.

catholicsforchoice.org/conscience/current/cSpring2008_CatholicsforChoiceandAbortion.asp

"*Church Teachings may not be Imposed

Despite what many think, the Vatican may not impose teachings on an unwilling faithful. Through the concept of reception, Catholics have a role to play in the establishment of church law.

The popular notion that whatever the pope says on a serious topic is infallible is an exaggeration of the principle of infallibility. While some ultra-conservative groups claim that the teaching on abortion is infallible, it does not in fact meet the definition of an infallible teaching. Since the doctrine of papal infallibility was first declared in 1870, only three teachings have been declared infallible: the Immaculate Conception of Mary; the Assumption of Mary; and the declaration on infallibility itself.

Before the encyclical Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life) was published in 1995, there was speculation among theologians and others that Pope John Paul II would assert the infallibility of the teaching on abortion. Then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican’s chief doctrinal officer, confirmed that the word infallible had been considered in early drafts but was rejected. Ratzinger explained that while the teaching on abortion is authoritative and deserves obedience, the encyclical stopped short of the “formality of dogmatization” (National Catholic Reporter, April 7, 1995).

The teaching authority of the church is not based solely on statements of the hierarchy; it also includes the scholarly efforts of theologians and the lived experience of Catholic people. “Since the Church is a living body,” the Vatican declared in the 1971 Communio Et Progressio, “she needs public opinion in order to sustain a giving and taking between her members. Without this, she cannot advance in thought and action.”

There is a diversity of opinion among leading theologians on the Vatican’s teaching on abortion. As long ago as 1973, noted Catholic theologian Charles Curran wrote in the Jurist that “there is a sizable and growing number of Catholic theologians who do disagree with some aspects of the officially proposed Catholic teaching that direct abortion from the time of conception is always wrong.”

The importance of lay Catholics’ experience in the establishment of church law is recognized through the concept of reception. Leading canon lawyer James Coriden shows how the principle of reception, “asserts that for a [church] law or rule to be an effective guide for the believing community it must be accepted by that community.” Through the centuries, church law experts have reaffirmed an understanding that “the obligatory force of church law is affected by its reception by the community.”

Like the concept of the primacy of conscience, the principle of reception does not mean that Catholic law is to be taken lightly or rejected without thoughtful and prudent consideration. Coriden writes, “reception is not a demonstration of popular sovereignty or an outcropping of populist democracy. It is a legitimate participation by the people in their own governance.*”
 
I would check out the chapter on reception in Cardinal Dulles’ book Magisterium (which says, in a nutshell, that the reception/non-reception of authentic magisterial teaching does not affect the truth of the teaching, and that the magisterium can demand the assent of the faithful to a particular act of teaching.)

The author seems to have trouble distinguishing between Church law and Church teaching. The quotes from James Coriden are really misused, because he is talking about the reception of canon law, not the reception of the Church’s moral teaching.
 
I would not read, listen to or entertain any of this dissident group’s flawed and dangerous opinions. They may very well have been Catholic at one point, but have consciously chosen to radically depart from the truth. They are either woefully ignorant of, or are simply lying about infallibility.

Regarding abortion, from the catechism:

Abortion

2270
Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.
 
Good answers (I only read the first) have been given, but it can all be summed up in one sentiment: Catholicism is not a democracy in any way, shape, or form; truth is truth if none acknowledge it, and falsity is falsity if all kneel before it.
 
Murder has always been condemned by Judaism and Christianity and abortion of innocent children is no different from any other murder.

This teaching comes from God. It predates the Church. It is nonsensical to argue about papal infallibility. No pope has any authority to change such basic teaching.
 
Murder has always been condemned by Judaism and Christianity and abortion of innocent children is no different from any other murder.

This teaching comes from God. It predates the Church. It is nonsensical to argue about papal infallibility. No pope has any authority to change such basic teaching.
Just as I try not to listen to the devil, I try also not to listen to his sock puppets. I think the gist of the pro-death rant was something along the lines of “the pope can’t tell me what to do” or some similarly developed and highly nuanced rationale.

I think that canon lawyers should file a tort against them for misusing and defaming the term “Catholic”
 
books.google.com/books?id=LOevknhl9i8C&pg=PA106

USSCB has said Catholics For Choice ‘is an arm of the abortion lobby.’ Bishops in 1993 said ‘Catholics’ For Choice is not an ‘authentic’ Catholic organisation and said it had ‘rejected unity with the church on important issues of long-standing and unchanging church teaching’

Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops has twice said in 2002 and 2010 that Catholics for a Free Choice: ’1) is not Catholic and 2) does not represent the teachings or views of the Catholic Church.’ Official newspaper of the Archdiocese of Mexico in 2003 said ‘Catholics’ For Choice is ‘not Catholic’

cccb.ca/site/eng/media-room/archives/public-statements/2010/2774-comment-by-the-canadian-conference-of-catholic-bishops-regarding-a-group-calling-itself-catholics-for-a-free-choice

catholicnewsagency.com/news/archdiocese_of_mexico_catholics_for_a_free_choice_are_not_catholic

USCCB said in 2000 ‘Catholics’ For Choice ‘is not a Catholic organization, does not speak for the Catholic Church, and in fact promotes positions contrary to the teaching of the Church as articulated by the Holy See and the NCCB,’ and that ‘its activity is directed to rejection and distortion of Catholic teaching about the respect and protection due to defenseless unborn human life.’ USSCB also said, ‘The public relations effort has ridiculed the Holy See in language reminiscent of other episodes of anti-Catholic bigotry that the Catholic Church has endured in the past’

old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2000/00-123.shtml

Helen M Alvaré, associate professor of law at Catholic University of America, has said CFC has ‘no grass roots base among Catholics’

nytimes.com/2007/02/27/us/27choice.html

Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz legislated automatic interdict from April 15 1996 against Catholics in his diocese who were members of Catholics For Choice (and 11 other organisations were included). He said, that membership ‘is always perilous to the Catholic Faith and most often is totally incompatible with the Catholic Faith.’ Any Catholic who remained a member for month was automatically excommunicated

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/BRUSKWTZ.HTM
 
books.google.com/books?id=LOevknhl9i8C&pg=PA106

USSCB has said Catholics For Choice ‘is an arm of the abortion lobby.’ Bishops in 1993 said ‘Catholics’ For Choice is not an ‘authentic’ Catholic organisation and said it had ‘rejected unity with the church on important issues of long-standing and unchanging church teaching’

Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops has twice said in 2002 and 2010 that Catholics for a Free Choice: ’1) is not Catholic and 2) does not represent the teachings or views of the Catholic Church.’ Official newspaper of the Archdiocese of Mexico in 2003 said ‘Catholics’ For Choice is ‘not Catholic’

cccb.ca/site/eng/media-room/archives/public-statements/2010/2774-comment-by-the-canadian-conference-of-catholic-bishops-regarding-a-group-calling-itself-catholics-for-a-free-choice

catholicnewsagency.com/news/archdiocese_of_mexico_catholics_for_a_free_choice_are_not_catholic

USCCB said in 2000 ‘Catholics’ For Choice ‘is not a Catholic organization, does not speak for the Catholic Church, and in fact promotes positions contrary to the teaching of the Church as articulated by the Holy See and the NCCB,’ and that ‘its activity is directed to rejection and distortion of Catholic teaching about the respect and protection due to defenseless unborn human life.’ USSCB also said, ‘The public relations effort has ridiculed the Holy See in language reminiscent of other episodes of anti-Catholic bigotry that the Catholic Church has endured in the past’

old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2000/00-123.shtml

Helen M Alvaré, associate professor of law at Catholic University of America, has said CFC has ‘no grass roots base among Catholics’

nytimes.com/2007/02/27/us/27choice.html

Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz legislated automatic interdict from April 15 1996 against Catholics in his diocese who were members of Catholics For Choice (and 11 other organisations were included). He said, that membership ‘is always perilous to the Catholic Faith and most often is totally incompatible with the Catholic Faith.’ Any Catholic who remained a member for month was automatically excommunicated

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/BRUSKWTZ.HTM
 
Murder has always been condemned by Judaism and Christianity and abortion of innocent children is no different from any other murder.

This teaching comes from God. It predates the Church. It is nonsensical to argue about papal infallibility. No pope has any authority to change such basic teaching.
Exactly. This has to do with the killing of the innocent, not papal infallibility.

From a statement by Priests for Life quoting a statment from the administrative committee of the US bishops:
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/cffcnews.htm

“Catholics for a Free Choice is associated with the pro-abortion lobby in Washington, D.C. It attracts public attention by its denunciations of basic principles of Catholic morality and teaching.” Most funding for CFFC “is from secular foundations supporting legal abortion in this country and abroad. It shares an address and funding sources with the National Abortion Federation, a trade association which seeks to advance the financial and professional interests of abortionists,”

George Soros is also involved:
discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/George%20Soros%20Funds%20Catholic%20Left.html

In addition, theologians are academics, not part of the Church’s magisterium however much some might like to think they are.
 
Whatever else, I really wouldn’t make the grievous error of allowing abortion to be re-named ‘choice.’
 
I don’t think that one need to go any further than the NT itself to see the flaws in the arguments presented in the OP…

First of all, I was struck by the phrase…“unwilling faithful”. I cannot think of a more dissident sounding term - and the very idea that the Church cannot impose teaching is not supported by Scripture or History.

That said, I fully agree that the faithful of every level plays a part in the development of teaching. However, as presented by this group it reduces the Church’s ability to teach to anarchy…It smacks of the protestant models that have produced so much confusion.

Yes the Faithful need to be involved - as well as learned theologians, canon lawyers, the bishops and many others. However - Christ established an Authoritative Church and Scripture records that we are are to “Listen to the Church” (Mt 18:15-18). In addition to this instruction we are shown an example of differing views being resolved by the Church leadership in council in Acts 15. In that case, ALL of the faithful were bound by the decision - willing or unwilling.

The Church has made a thorough study of the issue of abortion and has given sound teaching on the matter. For the faithful Catholic - willing or unwilling - this should be sufficient.

As to the matter of not invoking “infallibility” on the matter, I can understand the Church deciding not to because there may be new science etc. and the church is nothing if not cautious about such things. Her very ruling on the matter of abortion shows this caution. if it were to err, it errs on the side of life - on the assumption that life begins at conception because no clear, definitive, scientific answer has yet been given for when a life “becomes” human…and the best definition thus far is that it is when the proper DNA sequence is in place…In other words - at conception.

Peace
James
 
It is common for Catholic pro-life advocates to claim that teaching on abortion is infallible. Can somebody please explain to me why this Pro-choice advocate has written the following. I’d like you to prove this person wrong, because his or her interpretation of infallibility suggests that I have been waking around with a false understanding of infallibility. If that is the case, then this will greatly effect how I view abortion as a moral evil.
My apology. Time permits only a brief scan of the text in the post and one sentence…

It appears to me that the real issue is not necessarily the red herring of infallibility.
 
The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles

The Didache

(1st Century AD)

The Lord’s Teaching to the Heathen by the Twelve Apostles:

1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death; and between the two ways there is a great difference.

2 Now, this is the way of life:…

The second commandment of the Teaching: “Do not murder; do not commit adultery”; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; “do not steal”; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. “Do not covet your neighbor’s property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness”; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is “a deadly snare.” Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/didache.htm
 
The main problem with the argument is that it is restricting infallibility to only “papal infallibility.” The Church has three explicit organs of infallibility that are NOT mutually exclusive - the Ecumenical Council, the universal Ordinary Magisterium, and the papacy. The sensus fidei is also asserted to be protected by the infallibility of God. Just because the teaching against abortion does not meet the criteria of “papal infallibility” in no way means that the teaching is not infallible, because the papacy is not the only means through which God graces His Church with His infallibility. The teaching against abortion can clearly be shown to be an infallible teaching of the universal Ordinary Magisterium.

Blessings,
Marduk
It is common for Catholic pro-life advocates to claim that teaching on abortion is infallible. Can somebody please explain to me why this Pro-choice advocate has written the following. I’d like you to prove this person wrong, because his or her interpretation of infallibility suggests that I have been waking around with a false understanding of infallibility. If that is the case, then this will greatly effect how I view abortion as a moral evil.

catholicsforchoice.org/conscience/current/cSpring2008_CatholicsforChoiceandAbortion.asp

"*Church Teachings may not be Imposed

Despite what many think, the Vatican may not impose teachings on an unwilling faithful. Through the concept of reception, Catholics have a role to play in the establishment of church law.

The popular notion that whatever the pope says on a serious topic is infallible is an exaggeration of the principle of infallibility. While some ultra-conservative groups claim that the teaching on abortion is infallible, it does not in fact meet the definition of an infallible teaching. Since the doctrine of papal infallibility was first declared in 1870, only three teachings have been declared infallible: the Immaculate Conception of Mary; the Assumption of Mary; and the declaration on infallibility itself.

Before the encyclical Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life) was published in 1995, there was speculation among theologians and others that Pope John Paul II would assert the infallibility of the teaching on abortion. Then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican’s chief doctrinal officer, confirmed that the word infallible had been considered in early drafts but was rejected. Ratzinger explained that while the teaching on abortion is authoritative and deserves obedience, the encyclical stopped short of the “formality of dogmatization” (National Catholic Reporter, April 7, 1995).

The teaching authority of the church is not based solely on statements of the hierarchy; it also includes the scholarly efforts of theologians and the lived experience of Catholic people. “Since the Church is a living body,” the Vatican declared in the 1971 Communio Et Progressio, “she needs public opinion in order to sustain a giving and taking between her members. Without this, she cannot advance in thought and action.”

There is a diversity of opinion among leading theologians on the Vatican’s teaching on abortion. As long ago as 1973, noted Catholic theologian Charles Curran wrote in the Jurist that “there is a sizable and growing number of Catholic theologians who do disagree with some aspects of the officially proposed Catholic teaching that direct abortion from the time of conception is always wrong.”

The importance of lay Catholics’ experience in the establishment of church law is recognized through the concept of reception. Leading canon lawyer James Coriden shows how the principle of reception, “asserts that for a [church] law or rule to be an effective guide for the believing community it must be accepted by that community.” Through the centuries, church law experts have reaffirmed an understanding that “the obligatory force of church law is affected by its reception by the community.”

Like the concept of the primacy of conscience, the principle of reception does not mean that Catholic law is to be taken lightly or rejected without thoughtful and prudent consideration. Coriden writes, “reception is not a demonstration of popular sovereignty or an outcropping of populist democracy. It is a legitimate participation by the people in their own governance.*”
 
Scripture debunks their heinous opinions:

Luke 1:39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

Now at the point in time that Elizabeth (who was filled with God, the Holy Spirit) declared this, Mary was only pregnant 1-2 months MAX. So she was in the first trimester. And yet what does God declare about Mary??? That Mary is ALREADY His mother.

You cannot be mother to a “clump of cells”, or “product of conception”, or any other sneaky way to try and reclassify a baby in the womb. You can ONLY be a mother to a child. And God Himself declares Mary that she already IS His Mother, NOT that she WILL BE His mother, but already IS.
 
“Unwilling faithful”?? The mere fact that they use that phrase as if it means something real, demonstrates that they are themselves the willing unfaithful.
 
Re: Pro-choice Catholic Arguement Concerning Infallibility.

**Oxymoron of the Milennium Top 10
**
– absolutely unsure
– actual reenactment
– adult children
– blameless culprit
– casual intimacy
– conspicuously absent
– constant variable
– doing nothing
– friendly fire — and the winner and still champion

– pro-choice (regarding abortion) Catholic! :sad_bye:👋
 
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