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genevievelives
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And this means what? Is it somehow relevant to the discussion? If so, in what way? Or are you intent on obfuscating your position?
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JimG
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The trouble with a term like “pro-choice” is that it could mean being in favor of nearly any choice. But in practice, the term has been co-opted for use by those who believe that it should be legal to terminate small human beings.
I am pro-choice on light bulbs. I think we should be able to choose incandescent or CFL. But I’m not pro-choice as to the choice of terminating human beings of any age.
Another problem with these discussions is that when it comes to abortion, one side tends to favor legislation which allows in practice, abortion throughout all 9 months of pregnancy. That’s what Roe and Doe gave us. The other side usually favors legislation that bans abortion at every stage. But other countries allow abortion, say, up to 23 weeks or less, but not after.
Some pro-lifers may be absolutists in the sense of seeking total prohibition, at least in theory. Others may seek to at least provide strict, and firm, limits, both as to gestational age, and reasons for abortion. In doing so, they would not admit the morality of killing only some human beings under some extreme circumstances; but they would entertain the prospect of at least mitigating the damage of abortion on demand.
So to define oneself as both “pro-choice” and “Catholic” would require some explanation as to how one avoids violating the moral law by advocating the taking of innocent human life.
I am pro-choice on light bulbs. I think we should be able to choose incandescent or CFL. But I’m not pro-choice as to the choice of terminating human beings of any age.
Another problem with these discussions is that when it comes to abortion, one side tends to favor legislation which allows in practice, abortion throughout all 9 months of pregnancy. That’s what Roe and Doe gave us. The other side usually favors legislation that bans abortion at every stage. But other countries allow abortion, say, up to 23 weeks or less, but not after.
Some pro-lifers may be absolutists in the sense of seeking total prohibition, at least in theory. Others may seek to at least provide strict, and firm, limits, both as to gestational age, and reasons for abortion. In doing so, they would not admit the morality of killing only some human beings under some extreme circumstances; but they would entertain the prospect of at least mitigating the damage of abortion on demand.
So to define oneself as both “pro-choice” and “Catholic” would require some explanation as to how one avoids violating the moral law by advocating the taking of innocent human life.
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Barbkw
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You are guilty of that, not I.
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Pug
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I understand the idea, but I think this is a tall order. Many people know their siblings and even their own children died by abortion. Such happenings in a life make it hard to be calm and civil concerning the topic. It is very close to home, and brings with it much grief and anger. There is also emotion on the side across from me perhaps, as this quote from the thread brings to my mind:
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Iowa_Mike
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I’m afraid you misunderstand. Christ was not considered a radical by civil authority…Pilot found no cause to crucify Christ. He was crucified out of jealousy by Caiaphas and his gang, falsely accused, sent to his death by Pilot afraid of another insurrection in his area…murdered. Jesus Christ was a Jew but he founded the Universal Catholic Church. To be Catholic one must faithfully adhere to His teachings which He gave to the Church. Your use of language suggests that you are not Catholic but do grasp the Catholic position on life issues. Your view is right…the Church, established by Jesus Christ, believes all life is sacred from conception to natural death and that would include abortion, euthanasia, in vetro fertilization, cloning and embryonic stem cell research. You obviously don’t believe this, that’s your ‘real’ choice.
I have no idea what you meant by rallying cry.
I doubt we will get anywhere on discussing the religious objections for abortion. Ahhh but the non-religious reasons are a different case:
- Science has concluded that human life begins at conception, you can look at any of the major medical journals to confirm.
- Science, through DNA, have established that the baby (fetus) is unique. It is neither the father’s or the mother’s DNA buy a combination of the two. A separate and distict person.
- Technology supports the scientific view in two ways. First, we can see into the womb. We can see the child in development from his earlies developmental stages. There is no longer any doubt that there’s a baby in there, claims to the contrary are simply ludicrous.
I doubt you disagree with the above for to do so would put you at odds with the whole scientific world. So what remains to the pro-abortion, pro-choice people? Emotion based arguments:
*]It’s my body, it’s my decision
*]It’s a womans right to choose
*]I can’t afford a baby right now
*]I can’t deal with another baby at this time
*]I’m still in college
*]We need to wait until we get a house
*]We have a European vacation planned
*]My husband wants use to have more money in the bank first
*]etc. etc. etc.
I’d also what to object to your political correct usage of the term “choice”. Why not call it straight up…abortion, fetal termination, killing…murder?
I wonder have you ever seen an abortion? Take a look at the following link. It is a video of a full vaginal abortion…I’d like to know what you think.
abortionno.org
I’ll pray for you gen.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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Iowa_Mike
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gen,
You must admit that the use of choice in the context of abortion is indeed used to sanitize and avoid the word…abortion…killing…murder…etc.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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genevievelives
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genevievelives
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I must do no such thing, when choice may happen inside the abortion facility and a pregnant woman changes her mind and leaves the building. I must do no such thing, when a desperate woman, pregnant without a partner, without family, without money chooses to have her baby and do the best she can. I must do absolutely no such thing when a woman who is pregnant without wanting to be CHOOSES to have her baby and offer it for adoption.
No. The term “pro-choice” has been corrupted to equal evil-doing when there are many facets to choice, not just one, NOT just abortion. And, apparently, duty calls when pro-lifers hear the term: it can mean only one thing. No thought necessary. Just rise up and flare.
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Newbie2
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“Creativity”?
So that’s the PC term for deception nowadays, eh?I will give you credit, however, for changing your religious affiliation when called on it.
Let’s be honest, “Pro-choice” pretty much means one is OK with abortion. The other “choice” is life, which both sides share as a “choice”.
As long as the term “Pro-choice” means supporting abortion as an option, it will be “evildoing” according to Catholic (big C) teaching.
One is either OK with or not OK with abortion, so, yeah, there is not much thought needed when one says they’re OK with it.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
No, gen, it’s the pro-choice side that has turned the word “choice” to equal abortion.
The “choice” to abort one’s own child is what the pro choice side clings to. Any attempt to regulate abortion is seen as “anti-choice”
dictionary.reference.com/browse/pro+choice
Choosing to abort is not a morally correct action. The embryo/ fetus/ pre-born human is a human being whose right to life must be protected.
The “choice” to abort one’s own child is what the pro choice side clings to. Any attempt to regulate abortion is seen as “anti-choice”
dictionary.reference.com/browse/pro+choice
A woman can choose to keep he child, a woman can choose to place her child up for adoption. Those would be morally correct actions
Choosing to abort is not a morally correct action. The embryo/ fetus/ pre-born human is a human being whose right to life must be protected.
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Iowa_Mike
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Come on gen, what about the woman who goes into the abortion facility and chooses to have an abortion. When you add this to the life choices you mention above there are only two choices…women who choose life for their baby and women who choose death. When it all boils down the term pro-choice when, used in conjunction with abortion, means exactly that. If anyone has corrupted the language it is those who are pro abortion. They use the term pro-choice to focus on the woman in an effort to appear noble and avoid the stain and smell that the word abortion brings to the discourse.
Did you look at the video?
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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century153
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Hello Everyone - I haven’t been able to logon since my first post. You are correct Mary Gail, I am a new member and have not been involved in any of these discussions. I am not very well educated in the subject, I’ll admit. I do not support abortion and I never have. However, I was married to a nominal Catholic who was pro-choice and at the same time against capital punishment. I could not understand that. Dont’t start up on capital punishment on this thread please. Just to let you know, I am also against cp and always have been as well as being pro-life.The OP has only been a member since October. Perhaps he or she hasn’t ever participated in a rising and blooming of this discussion.
What I am seeking here is a sounding board for anyone to state their views with maybe reasons for their beliefs and as I said if possible backed by scripture etc. I have not been able to read all the posts yet – I apologize. I believe that we can all keep it civil because as I read in a previous post - under the law of God we are to love every man – to not hate anyone - here it is copied:
You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life
So, I hope that we will speak to one another according to the Lord’s will, in love. We will get absolutely nowhere by condemnation and hateful remarks. Jesus did not condemn us, neither should we condemn each other. If a person calls himself a Catholic and claims he is pro-choice, there is certainly valid (if only in the mind of the pro-choicer) reasons for his belief. This is what I hope to accomplish - that we will LISTEN to one another and help one another to understand what it is God wants from us.
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century153
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Iowa Mike – you said:
Of course, I am assuming here that in calling oneself Catholic, that means one is seeking the Lord with his whole heart. If this is not the case, then the true sin is against the first commandment - “Thou shalt love the Lord your God and put no other false gods before Him” - since we would be putting our own self and our own will above God.
- Science has concluded that human life begins at conception, you can look at any of the major medical journals to confirm.
Of course, I am assuming here that in calling oneself Catholic, that means one is seeking the Lord with his whole heart. If this is not the case, then the true sin is against the first commandment - “Thou shalt love the Lord your God and put no other false gods before Him” - since we would be putting our own self and our own will above God.
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century153
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I have to admit that I have looked at pro-choice in just that way. That we are in a dilemma here where pro-choice is concerned, but b this law it may mean down the road that no one has the right to force abortion or euthanasia or some such thing on anyone in this country. Am I right in my observation?
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century153
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Newbie2
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I would not go out on that limb or at least be very careful to define what science says about human life.
Science woud agree that an early embryo is alive, and that it is a human embryo in the sense that it is not a whale or a dog embryo. However, “Science” has not concluded that embryos are human beings, in the sense that we as Catholic Christians understand a human being =body + soul.
Now perhaps many scientists have come to the conclusion that a human embryo is a human being (person) at moment 1, but this is not universally so, not even close to being a consensus. If there were a consensus, we would be able to legally protect all such gestional stages legally, as they would have legal human personhood bestowed upon them.
We all look forward to that day, which sadly may never come.
Anyway, we have to keep in mind that theologians are the experts in matters of the soul, not scientists.
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PLAT
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I am pretty sure pro-choice mean pro choice no pro-abortion. And the choice is to be spiritually morally correct.
The “I can’t afford to have a baby now” or “I have no time” excuses ignores the fact that they have chosen to marry/have sex/live together/etc.
And “I have my own body and can do whatever that pleases me” argument is invalid. Seriously? Then why is killing oneself considered a sin? One’s body is not actually his or hers btw, it’s God’s.
The “I can’t afford to have a baby now” or “I have no time” excuses ignores the fact that they have chosen to marry/have sex/live together/etc.
And “I have my own body and can do whatever that pleases me” argument is invalid. Seriously? Then why is killing oneself considered a sin? One’s body is not actually his or hers btw, it’s God’s.
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Iowa_Mike
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It’s time to be frank about this subject. Over 53 million babies have been slaughtered in this country since Roe V Wade. We need to be loving, caring and helpful to those who believe in, are having or have had an abortion. Having said that we have an obligation as Catholics to speak out and speak out clearly in defense of the unborn. If we don’t, if we remain silent we become partners in the crime of abortion.
The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ. The Church is a religious body not a political one. The teachings of the Church transend all other affiliations…you are either faithfully adhere to the teachings of the Church or you don’t. It is black and white not conservative or liberal. Very simple. Some people are characterized as ‘cafeteria Catholics’ precisely bfecause they reject one or more fundamental doctrines of the Church for their own selfish reasons. When they do so they put themselves outside the Church. We are all called to humble obedience to follow the teachings of Church no matter how difficult it is to do so. No one said it was easy to be a Catholic.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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Iowa_Mike
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You are badly mistaken. Science had indeed established that human life begins the instant a male sperm cell unites with a female oocyte…bingo, life begins. That’s universally held in the scientific community because it is established, proven science. This is also the estblished belief of the Catholic Church who teaches that all life is sacred from conception until natural death. Their isn’t any wiggle room.I would not go out on that limb or at least be very careful to define what science says about human life.
Science woud agree that an early embryo is alive, and that it is a human embryo in the sense that it is not a whale or a dog embryo. However, “Science” has not concluded that embryos are human beings, in the sense that we as Catholic Christians understand a human being =body + soul.
Now perhaps many scientists have come to the conclusion that a human embryo is a human being (person) at moment 1, but this is not universally so, not even close to being a consensus. If there were a consensus, we would be able to legally protect all such gestional stages legally, as they would have legal human personhood bestowed upon them.
We all look forward to that day, which sadly may never come.
Anyway, we have to keep in mind that theologians are the experts in matters of the soul, not scientists.
The pro-abortion lobby has successfully obfuscated rights of a child in the womb through political misdirection claims that a woman has the right to choose, the use of PC language like pro-choice and villanizing their opponents as right wing religious nuts. But this is changing. Many States are floating laws that woud give personhood to the baby in the womb. Georgia, Mississippi, Colorado are among about 15 States that I am aware of that are pursuing such a law. It’s just a matter of time…all the science is on the side of the pro-life movement.
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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