Pro-choice Catholics

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What is not being addressed by you, Rence, is how you reconcile other legal but immoral things (like the relatively benign husband calling his wife fat to the very heinous but legal stoning of a woman via adultery.)

You have evaded this over and over again.
I have not evaded it over and over. I have answered it over and over. You just don’t like how I am answering. I have said that if one doesn’t agree with a law, they should try to get it changed by lobbying. If there is an instance where something is legal but you consider it immoral, then you should lobby to have it changed. If there is an instance where something is illegal and you don’t find it’s not immoral, lobby to have it changed. But you still have to obey the law at the time it is a law.

The problem you’re having with me is that I am grateful for the laws that protect women’s rights, and I agree with them. Therefore, I have no compulsion to fight those laws that make something legal, that others find immoral because I agree that the laws are just as well as moral.

If asked a question about the topic of this thread, which is pro-choice Catholics, I will respond.
 
Firstly, I used the term “consonant”, not “constant”.
Sorry, my typo…
Secondly, you force motherhood when you make a woman be a mom when she doesn’t want to be a mom. She wants to get rid of her teenager but you tell her it’s immoral to kill the smug little guy. How dare you! 😃 She has a right not to have motherhood forced on her should her mind change, eh?
First of all, I am not forcing anyone to be a mother or not be a mother. I have no say in the matter. Secondly, this is not related to abortion. Abortion rights are about the reproductive rights of the woman, not about a teenager.
Good. Because it certainly sounds like you’re saying that the right of a woman to make choices in her body is “unlimited”; even carrying a human life insider her does not put limits on her rights. That sounds unlimited to me. 🤷
Nope, I just said she has the right to make medical decisions regarding her body, she has the right to consent or refuse treatment, and she has autonomy when it comes to her reproduction.
Actually, you’ve been quite adamantine about appealing to the “legal”-- not really the “moral” aspect of this discussion.
Actually, I’ve said more than once that I believe the woman’s legal right to choose, especially in the case of rape and when the woman’s life is in danger, is moral.
Oh! How I wish I could remember this wonderful quote that my 13 year old daughter said! It went something like this, “Mom! If you really believe what you’re saying is true, doesn’t it mean that you believe that the person who says the opposite of you is false?”

It sounds quite wise from a 13 yr old, eh?
Yes, she is 🙂
 
I have spent a lot of time answering all of your (and others’) questions in earnest, and with my heart. I’m sorry that my answers are not what you are looking for, but they represent my beliefs and values. I’m sorry that we don’t agree, but we are both entitled to our opinions, beliefs and thoughts. I have no interest in changing anyone’s beliefs or values, and I have no interest in influencing anyone. I’m just glad that I have the personal freedom to enjoy exercising my rights and freedoms. I have shared thoughts with you, and you have shared yours with me, and I’m glad for the exchange. I would have hoped we’d better understand each other, but it’s okay if we don’t. Truly all the answers to any questions you have of me are in my many posts on this thread. There is nothing hidden. It’s truly how I feel.
Rence, your posts are spot on! You are not alone in these opinions. I have learned a lot from reading your thoughts. Hope there is a nurse like you in the ER should I ever end up there. 👍
 
Re the infamous Arizona case where the 11 week fetus was killed.

This is a description of an 11 week fetus:
Baby: Your fetus, about the size of a large lime, measures about 1.75 to 2.4 inches from crown to rump and weighs about three-tenths of an ounce. About now the rapid “swooshing” noises of the heartbeat can be heard through a Doppler sound-wave stethoscope. Fingernails and external genitalia are showing distinguishing characteristics, and the baby is swallowing and kicking, although you still won’t feel it.
Read the description, then look at page 2 the little picture of a baby that age…then try to claim that killing that child is MORAL.

webmd.com/baby/guide/your-pregnancy-week-by-week-weeks-9-12?page=2
 
So if they passed a law requiring all red headed people be killed, you’d be OK with that? How about Jews, that’s what Hitler did. In the Mid-East honor killings are Ok. Women are stoned to death for adultry - your Ok with all of this?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
I have not evaded it over and over. I have answered it over and mover. You just don’t like how I am answering. I have said that if one doesn’t agree with a law, they should try to get it changed by lobbying. If there is an instance where something is legal but you consider it immoral, then you should lobby to have it changed. If there is an instance where something is illegal and you don’t find it’s not immoral, lobby to have it changed. But you still have to obey the law at the time it is a law.

The problem you’re having with me is that I am grateful for the laws that protect women’s rights, and I agree with them. Therefore, I have no compulsion to fight those laws that make something legal, that others find immoral because I agree that the laws are just as well as moral.

If asked a question about the topic of this thread, which is pro-choice Catholics, I will respond.
 
I think that the reason for so many pro-choice Catholics is that they were first pro-contraception, and rejected the teaching of Humanae Vitae. The contraceptive mentality leads inevitably to abortion.
Yes. Our Holy Father was truly exercising the gift of prophesy when he predicted that.
 
Rence, your posts are spot on! You are not alone in these opinions. I have learned a lot from reading your thoughts. Hope there is a nurse like you in the ER should I ever end up there. 👍
Well thanks 🙂 I enjoy being a nurse and caring for others!
 
How sad that people are willing to slander others in order to enforce their either/or, protestant style thinking. Either you vote Republican (pro-life) or Democrat (pro-choice on abortion). Interestingly, I have no problem stating that I voted for Jerry Brown over Meg Whitman, and I feel definitely justified in doing so considering Whitman’s radical pro-abortion views compared to Brown’s. Otherwise, I left a lot of blank spaces on my ballot and focused on the initiatives…particularly voting down everything Schwarzenegger endorsed.

It’s not about getting Democrats elected, it’s about not voting for people that I perceive to be fake on the issue of abortion. That’s my perception. Like Christ said, “not everyone who says to Me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter in.” I see Republican politicians say, “Pro-life, pro-life” during elections and make symbolic moves soon after getting into office, but after a couple months, abortion resumes its back-burner policy statement status until Christians are needed to ensure an electoral victory. Until I see consistent, effective action on the part of the Republicans, not symbolic moves, the I don’t buy Republican “pro-life” talk. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Democrats and, unless I have a compelling reason to do so, I generally don’t vote for them.
Ok, but don’ t forget that we are not allowed to mention any candidates by name here on CAF.
 
Re the infamous Arizona case where the 11 week fetus was killed.

This is a description of an 11 week fetus:

Read the description, then look at page 2 the little picture of a baby that age…then try to claim that killing that child is MORAL.

webmd.com/baby/guide/your-pregnancy-week-by-week-weeks-9-12?page=2
What I’ve noted is that people who advocate abortion are very very careful to skip over the ‘morality’ of the issue completely and focus on its legality alone, “It’s legal, so it’s all right!”. . .or try to turn it into a situational ethics alone, “You have no right telling some other person what to do with HER body! What about RAPE? What about INCEST? What about the fact that she won’t be able to go to the college of her choice and earn big bucks and have the life she ‘wants’? What about how ‘sad’ the life of the UNWANTED baby will be, it’s better off dead than suffering its whole life, right?”

Notice that morality is either relative “if it’s the right decision for YOU, great, though it might not be the right decision for me, or it might be right at this particular TIME or PLACE in your life but NOT at a DIFFERENT time”. . .

Or it is couched as an INTOLERANCE on the part of pro-lifers (with ‘our’ nasty woman-hating meanness) while the fact that the people who say they support ‘choice’ actually disagree on what they MEAN by that choice. Some ONLY support abortion in cases of rape and incest. Some ONLY support abortion up to a certain arbitrary point, or for those of a certain race, or economic class, or for a certain arbitrary reason (usually related to ‘money’). Yet somehow we are supposed to accept that people who can’t even agree as to what they mean by their ‘choice’ have a greater knowledge of morality than the people who DO agree that abortion will always, always end in the death of a child?
 
So if they passed a law requiring all red headed people be killed, you’d be OK with that?
maybe you have not had time to catch up on the thread, Mike, but Rence was clear that she supports the right of women to consent over their own bodies. Your example has nothing to do with that.
How about Jews, that’s what Hitler did.
No, Rence is not recommending the slaughter of any one race. I think her values of the woman being able to consent extent to all races and religions. At least, that is how I read her posts. I am sure she will correct me if I misunderstood. 👍
In the Mid-East honor killings are Ok. Women are stoned to death for adultry - your Ok with all of this?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
Given her stated values on supporting the rights of women, I can confidently say she would not. However, what does that have to do with a woman having consent over her own body?
 
What I’ve noted is that people who advocate abortion are very very careful to skip over the ‘morality’ of the issue completely and focus on its legality alone, “It’s legal, so it’s all right!”. . .or try to turn it into a situational ethics alone, “You have no right telling some other person what to do with HER body! What about RAPE? What about INCEST? What about the fact that she won’t be able to go to the college of her choice and earn big bucks and have the life she ‘wants’? What about how ‘sad’ the life of the UNWANTED baby will be, it’s better off dead than suffering its whole life, right?”

Notice that morality is either relative “if it’s the right decision for YOU, great, though it might not be the right decision for me, or it might be right at this particular TIME or PLACE in your life but NOT at a DIFFERENT time”. . .

Or it is couched as an INTOLERANCE on the part of pro-lifers (with ‘our’ nasty woman-hating meanness) while the fact that the people who say they support ‘choice’ actually disagree on what they MEAN by that choice. Some ONLY support abortion in cases of rape and incest. Some ONLY support abortion up to a certain arbitrary point, or for those of a certain race, or economic class, or for a certain arbitrary reason (usually related to ‘money’). Yet somehow we are supposed to accept that people who can’t even agree as to what they mean by their ‘choice’ have a greater knowledge of morality than the people who DO agree that abortion will always, always end in the death of a child?
Great post. 🙂
 
With all due respect Jharek, I think you fail to realize just how joined at the hip the Democrat party and the abortion lobby are. The Democrat party is the party of abortion rights. The Republican party, while by no means perfect on the issue, is the pro-life party. The further left you go on the spectrum, the more secular, and the more likely you are to find support for both abortion rights and euthenasia. Abortion and right to die are both pet issues for the left in America. There may well be christian or catholic Democrats, but they make a mockery of their faith when they vote for the politicians committed to abortion rights and the culture of death. And in spite of what another poster says about “protestant either/or thinking” , sometimes it is a matter of either/or. For example, in that poster’s state of California there was a key senate race that pit a pro-life candidate against the most committed abortion rights candidate in our country - even for partial birth abortion! I don’t know for sure, but I would have to guess based on that poster’s demonstrated hatred of the Republican party that they either didn’t vote at all in the race, or they voted for the infanticide Democrat. There have been stark pro-life/pro-abortion rights choices the past few elections. Unfortunately too many catholics are Democrat first, catholic second, or they hate the Republican party more than they hate abortion. As Edmund Burke said: " all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Ishii
 
Hi, Personanongrata,

Here is hoping that you get what you want.

God bless from another nurse.
Rence, your posts are spot on! You are not alone in these opinions. I have learned a lot from reading your thoughts. Hope there is a nurse like you in the ER should I ever end up there. 👍
 
Actually, I’ve said more than once that I believe the woman’s legal right to choose, especially in the case of rape and when the woman’s life is in danger, is moral.
Actually, you’ve been begging the question this entire time.

When pressed to defend why it’s moral to abort a child, you say, “Because it’s legal.”
 
Rence:

Let’s go back just a few short years, to 1965. Abortion is not legal in the U.S.

Since abortion is not legal then, is it also not moral then?

If it was moral then, why wasn’t it legal, and what exactly made it moral?

If it was not moral then, did the legalizing make it moral? How?
 
Hi, Rence,

Actually, I do not think you have evaded the questions - the problem is that your responses are simply illogical for a Catholic. This creates confusion for the other posters and they conclude that you just have not answered. It really isn’t a question of ‘liking’ a response, the issue is just how well informed is the response.

Waving the flag for women to destroy the life within them is not a freedom in the sense of a liberation to do right and avoid evil - it is the call of Satan himself who thrives on death and destruction. It was Christ who rebuked His Apostles and said, “Suffer the little children to come to me” - and advocating for abortion as you are doing is a direct denial of Christ’s command.

I would like to know just what is your concept of ‘just’ when you call the laws allowing abortion at will at any time ‘just’. I have always been amazed that perfectly healthy children are murdered in their mothers womb - some even as they are forced to emerge and have their spinal cord cut, yet other nurses in the Neonatal ICU labor long and hard to save premature babies who have less gestational age, development and weight than the ones being butchered. Surely life stands on its on feet here - it is not a item of whim to pitch like a used newspaper. It has objective elements for all to see - and acknowledge.

Truly, the days of these late term abortions are drawing fast to an end. Drs like Kermit Gosnell are facing multiple murder counts - and at least one of his pregnant patients died from his direction of an unlicensed person to give medications. Something like 20 states are moving to stop abortions after 20 weeks because the fetus can be seen to be experiencing pain on ultrasound - and this is truly cruel and most unusual form of death - to be dismembered alive. And, this is what you think you have a ‘right’ to?

As Catholics we believe that we are here for only a short period of time and then we will be individually judged for what we have done and what we have failed to do. Just look around yourself and see that the focus is on life - and not on death. Yes, there are hard and sad cases - but, killing new life is not solving the problem - only adding a new one.

Do you remember this pledge?

**I solemnly pledge myself before God and in the presence of this assembly, to pass my life in purity and to practice my profession faithfully. I will abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, and will not take or knowingly administer any harmful drug. I will do all in my power to maintain and elevate the standard of my profession, and will hold in confidence all personal matters committed to my keeping and all family affairs coming to my knowledge in the practice of my calling. With loyalty will I endeavor to aid the physician, in his work, and devote myself to the welfare of those committed to my care. **

It is a good set of statements to have in front of you.

God bless
I have not evaded it over and over. I have answered it over and over. You just don’t like how I am answering. I have said that if one doesn’t agree with a law, they should try to get it changed by lobbying. If there is an instance where something is legal but you consider it immoral, then you should lobby to have it changed. If there is an instance where something is illegal and you don’t find it’s not immoral, lobby to have it changed. But you still have to obey the law at the time it is a law.

The problem you’re having with me is that I am grateful for the laws that protect women’s rights, and I agree with them. Therefore, I have no compulsion to fight those laws that make something legal, that others find immoral because I agree that the laws are just as well as moral.

If asked a question about the topic of this thread, which is pro-choice Catholics, I will respond.
 
First of all, I am not forcing anyone to be a mother or not be a mother.
But you are indeed. You advocate forced motherhood each and every time you state that it’s wrong to kill a teenager, surly or otherwise. 😉
I have no say in the matter.
You have as much say as you do about abortion rights. You can exercise your freedom of speech as you do here on the CAFs.
Secondly, this is not related to abortion. Abortion rights are about the reproductive rights of the woman, not about a teenager.
One has to wonder why you cannot draw your argument to its logical conclusion. One-note apologia (“it’s legal”) seems to put blinders on folks.
Nope, I just said she has the right to make medical decisions regarding her body, she has the right to consent or refuse treatment, and she has autonomy when it comes to her reproduction.
Sure.

Except when she has already reproduced, and created a new human life, then certain restrictions are in place, if one wants to remain *consonant *with Christ’s teachings.
Actually, I’ve said more than once that I believe the woman’s legal right to choose, especially in the case of rape and when the woman’s life is in danger, is moral.
And, again, you have begged the question and turned it into a circular reductio ad absurdum.
 
maybe you have not had time to catch up on the thread, Mike, but Rence was clear that she supports the right of women to consent over their own bodies. Your example has nothing to do with that.

No, Rence is not recommending the slaughter of any one race. I think her values of the woman being able to consent extent to all races and religions. At least, that is how I read her posts. I am sure she will correct me if I misunderstood. 👍

Given her stated values on supporting the rights of women, I can confidently say she would not. However, what does that have to do with a woman having consent over her own body?
You missed the thrust of my question entirely and you clearly have not read my earlier posts. She posted that abortion is legal and she is Ok with it while shooting a bank teller is against the law and she is not Ok with it. I pointed out to that both are morally wrong and if the law is her differentiator then if a law is passed to kill red headed people, Jews etc. Is she Ok with it. Since I posed the question to her you might consider allowing her to answer it herself.

Please read for context and please don’t answer for another poster especially when you don’t understand the question. If I was asking for your opinion I would have directed the question to you.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

God
 
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