Pro-choice Catholics

[guanophore]

You missed the thrust of my question entirely and you clearly have not read my earlier posts.

On the contrary, I have made reading your posts a daily practice.

How else will I keep from missing that sensitivity you claim?

The thrust of your question had nothing to do with the reproductive freedoms of women - consent over what happens to her own body.

Maybe the abuse of women in fundamentalist Muslim communities…but it is a stretch.

She posted that abortion is legal and she is Ok with it while shooting a bank teller is against the law and she is not Ok with it. I pointed out to that both are morally wrong and if the law is her differentiator then if a law is passed to kill red headed people, Jews etc. Is she Ok with it. Since I posed the question to her you might consider allowing her to answer it herself.

I think you have not been able to catch up on the thread, Mike. It is a very fast moving thread. She has made it clear that the law does not recognize the rights of people until they are born, and that she does not support the taking of life after it comes out of the womb.

Please read for context and please don’t answer for another poster especially when you don’t understand the question. If I was asking for your opinion I would have directed the question to you.

My, my. A little touchy, arent we? If you don’t want anyone else to read or respond, it might be better to send her a PM.

 

[CMatt25]

If one consents to a pregnancy willingly due to their belief in God and their faith in God, then how can we force someone else to be pregnant or not be pregnant based on, and citing, our belief and faith in a God that the pregnant woman doesn’t have any faith or belief in? We can’t, because it works for us, but not for someone who doesn’t share those beliefs and faith. God would never force someone to do something He asked because He gifted us with free will.

:clapping: And therein is why pro choice on an issue like this related to reproduction and a woman’s body must be and is in the American democracy, the law of the land.

 

[PRmerger]

The thrust of your question had nothing to do with the reproductive freedoms of women - consent over what happens to her own body.

Maybe the abuse of women in fundamentalist Muslim communities…but it is a stretch.

What we are trying to emphasize is that there are a multitude of behaviors and activities that are legal but not moral. Stoning adulterous women is one of them. Abortion is another.

Rence supports the latter, but not the former. Why?

 

[CMatt25]

Murdering a bank teller for money is illegal. Choosing an abortion, especially after one has been raped, or when their life is in danger, is not.

Exactly

 

[guanophore]

What we are trying to emphasize is that there are a multitude of behaviors and activities that are legal but not moral. Stoning adulterous women is one of them. Abortion is another.

Rence supports the latter, but not the former. Why?

This makes sense, but what does that have to do with committing other crimes?

 

[Rence]

The thrust of your question had nothing to do with the reproductive freedoms of women - consent over what happens to her own body.

I knew I wasn’t the only one who thought some of those examples were not only far stretches but totally off topic and unrelated. Thank you

I think you have not been able to catch up on the thread, Mike. It is a very fast moving thread. She has made it clear that the law does not recognize the rights of people until they are born, and that she does not support the taking of life after it comes out of the womb.

I’m glad someone read that. It seems people are skipping it over and over, no matter how many times I explain it, and keep asking the same questions over and over. Thank you again Maybe this time, the answer will be sufficient if it comes from you.

My, my. A little touchy, arent we? If you don’t want anyone else to read or respond, it might be better to send her a PM.

Or not?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

If you’re an American citizen, it’s the law.

And our Lord in Heaven, along with His Church, has stayed far away from endorsing the killing of a human life simply because it is ‘law.’

Come to grips with the truth, Matt.

 

[CMatt25]

What we are trying to emphasize is that there are a multitude of behaviors and activities that are legal but not moral. Stoning adulterous women is one of them. Abortion is another.

Rence supports the latter, but not the former. Why?

Rence personally supports abortion? News to me. She supports choice for women who do not believe as she or as you do PR. Every issue is different and abortion is different than any other. And many believe on this very personal, private matter, the government under the law should not for instance be interfering and forcing a woman or 9 yr old rape victim for that matter, or a mother whose health or life may be in jeopardy, to carry her embryo/fetus to term.

 

[guanophore]

Murdering a bank teller for money is illegal. Choosing an abortion, especially after one has been raped, or when their life is in danger, is not.

What does not make sense to me is, why kill an innocent victim for somenone else’s crime?

I am also curious, why is it so important to abort a baby that results from a rape? It seems like there is an assumption that God cannot be glorified in the midst of such a tragedy.

 

[Rence]

What we are trying to emphasize is that there are a multitude of behaviors and activities that are legal but not moral. Stoning adulterous women is one of them. Abortion is another.

Rence supports the latter, but not the former. Why?

Well why not just ask her? Again

I know very well that there are a multitude of behaviors and activities that are legal but not moral. I don’t support stonging adultrous women because I don’t believe it’s moral or has any merit. However, I support the right of a woman to choose because I value and agree with the right of the woman to have the ultimate say-so over her own body and reproduction, and the ultimate legal right to consent or refuse treatments that have anything to do with her own body. I especially believe this is important in the case of rape or when the health and/or life of the woman is in danger. Yes, it’s the law, but it’s also something I believe to be true, therefore I support it.

 

[Rence]

What does not make sense to me is, why kill an innocent victim for somenone else’s crime?

I am also curious, why is it so important to abort a baby that results from a rape? It seems like there is an assumption that God cannot be glorified in the midst of such a tragedy.

It’s not so important to abort a baby that results from rape. That’s not the point. It’s important that the woman have the right to choose. Some women can choose to continue the pregnancy, and can recognize something wonderful that came from something so horrible. But some women may not be able to handle a situation in which, not only is she raped, but she is forcibly made pregnant. A woman has the right to protect herself from a forced, unwanted, non-consensual pregnancy. It’s her choice.

 

[ishii]

Thanks but as my previous posts have said, it goes both ways. If one consents to a pregnancy willingly due to their belief in God and their faith in God, then how can we force someone else to be pregnant or not be pregnant based on, and citing, our belief and faith in a God that the pregnant woman doesn’t have any faith or belief in? We can’t, because it works for us, but not for someone who doesn’t share those beliefs and faith. God would never force someone to do something He asked because He gifted us with free will. That’s why Christ Himself said, when the message of the disciples is ignored or rejected we are directed specifically to shake the dust from that home or town off our feet, don’t even stay and eat there, and go on to the next one and teach to those who will listen and are receptive to the Word. Christ said nothing about enforcing Church laws by force, or by imprisonment, or by coersion.

Rence, here is another application of your strange logic which you use to justify abortion rights:

How can we force someone to not rape or stone a woman based on and citing our belief and faith in a God that the stoner and rapist of women doens’t believe in? This is what you’re saying.

As Mother Theresa said, “if a mother can kill her unborn child, then I can kill you and you can kill me.”

Ishii

 

[atmmgraves]

Rence personally supports abortion? News to me. She supports choice for women who do not believe as she or as you do PR. Every issue is different and abortion is different than any other. And many believe on this very personal, private matter, the government under the law should not for instance be interfering and forcing a woman or 9 yr old rape victim for that matter, or a mother whose health or life may be in jeopardy, to carry her embryo/fetus to term.

The government is interfering by allowing the murder of unborn children every day in this country, against the popular will of the people.

I must say that I tire of the “9 year old rape victim” and “health of the mother” arguments that are endlessly regurgitated by pro-abortion folks. This is nothing more than a deception to keep the eyes and ears of those watching and listening to this debate focused on the margins. And while the pro-abortion crowd chants their extreme scenario mantra, the pro-lifers are forced to counter and the folks on the fence on this issue watch the spectacle and ponder - while more and more are killed for what Mother Teresa aptly described as convenience. Enough of this. Abortion is murder and it is taking place everyday at an alarming rate and those who stand for life need to continue to shine the light of truth on this horrible practice everywhere it is found. .

My grandmother delivered my dad when she was 14. He went on to spend $3,000 to adopt me from my 16 year old biological mother. I thank God all involved did the right and moral thing when it counted most.

 

[Rence]

Rence, here is another application of your strange logic which you use to justify abortion rights:

How can we force someone to not rape or stone a woman based on and citing our belief and faith in a God that the stoner and rapist of women doens’t believe in? This is what you’re saying.

As Mother Theresa said, “if a mother can kill her unborn child, then I can kill you and you can kill me.”

Ishii

That’s not another application of my logic, that’s just replacing some of the words in my sentence with words you like better. It has nothing at all to do with what I use to justify the rights of women to consent or refuse treatments, or the right of women to autonony, or the rights of a woman over her personhood and reproduction. If anything, it reinforces it.

 

[ishii]

Rence personally supports abortion? News to me. She supports choice for women who do not believe as she or as you do PR. Every issue is different and abortion is different than any other. And many believe on this very personal, private matter, the government under the law should not for instance be interfering and forcing a woman or 9 yr old rape victim for that matter, or a mother whose health or life may be in jeopardy, to carry her embryo/fetus to term.

I don’t support slavery personally, but I am all for the right of others to choose to enslave blacks.

I don’t support apartheid personally, but if the South Africans want that kind of system, that’s their choice.

I don’t personally support a man who rapes and beats his wife, but that’s a private matter between the man and his wife. What happens in the bedroom is not my business.

I don’t personally support child pornography, but I am all for the right of others to choose to view child porn if they want. This is America and we’re a pluralistic democracy after all.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

That’s not another application of my logic, that’s just replacing some of the words in my sentence with words you like better. It has nothing at all to do with what I use to justify the rights of women to consent or refuse treatments, or the right of women to autonony, or the rights of a woman over her personhood and reproduction. If anything, it reinforces it.

Yes, that is the logical conclusion of your reasoning, and it is why Mother Theresa said, “We must not be surprised when we here of murders, of killings, of wars, of hatred. If a mother can kill her own child, what is left but for us to kill each other.” Do you think there is no consequence to legal, unfettered abortion on demand year after year? We’re talking about a real live human being, not a growth or a tumor. That baby does have rights. Unfortunately they were taken away so women could be “liberated” and so men could be relieved of their responsibility. You may not want to be reminded of this - but to paraphrase the great Walker Percy: “you can’t have it both ways. You’re going to be told what you’re doing.”

Ishii

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Do those who affiliate themselves as “pro-choice” not realize how corrupt the abortion industry is? Do you know you are advocating for the very organization that literally treats unborn children as if they are trash**?** Exploits and harms women to the fullest extent, while placing it’s building across from schools (forcing birth control on kids) in poor neighborhoods**?** An organization that doesn’t even clean it’s medical instruments so that it’s workers may perform as many abortions in a day as possible**?** A business that keeps making more money every day because it has been taking advantage of desperate women since 1973**?** You want women to make a choice that is for their personal heath and wellbeing *while *not knowing (and perhaps not caring about) exactly what you are defending! If you truly knew what you were defending, you would NOT be thinking of a women’s wellbeing to the core of her person-hood. No, you wouldn’t.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t support slavery personally, but I am all for the right of others to choose to enslave blacks.

I don’t support apartheid personally, but if the South Africans want that kind of system, that’s their choice.

I don’t personally support a man who rapes and beats his wife, but that’s a private matter between the man and his wife. What happens in the bedroom is not my business.

I don’t personally support child pornography, but I am all for the right of others to choose to view child porn if they want. This is America and we’re a pluralistic democracy after all.

Ishii

Ishii, you may not like or agree with an answer, but reread what I said before you start bringing in unrelated issues to the answer. Apples and oranges. In a way though you proved my point. Different issues.

I believe what I believe about the abortion issue. You and others are free to differ or agree as many do. God bless you and each of us on our faith journeys.

 

[ishii]

Ishii, you may not like or agree with an answer, but reread what I said before you start bringing in unrelated issues to the answer. Apples and oranges. In a way though you proved my point. Different issues.

I believe what I believe about the abortion issue. You and others are free to differ or agree as many do. God bless you and each of us on our faith journeys.

As usual a non-answer. All I did was apply your logic to other issues: I personally don’t approve of X, but I think someone should have the right to choose to do X." When push comes to shove, you have no argument against the person who says those things (child porn, slavery, stoning, etc.) are a matter of personal choice. This has been shown to you but you refuse to see it. I pray that you will be cured of your blindness on this issue.

Ishii

 

[guanophore]

It’s not so important to abort a baby that results from rape. That’s not the point. It’s important that the woman have the right to choose. Some women can choose to continue the pregnancy, and can recognize something wonderful that came from something so horrible. But some women may not be able to handle a situation in which, not only is she raped, but she is forcibly made pregnant. A woman has the right to protect herself from a forced, unwanted, non-consensual pregnancy. It’s her choice.

Ok, so why not support an amendment to the legislation that limits abortion to the two conditions that are so critical in your mind? Why support the 98% of abortions that do not fall into those categories?