Pro-choice Catholics

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Wow. I missed this post.

Truer words were never spoken here, bob.

:bowdown:
Well, you can say ‘potahto’ and I’ll tell it like it is. It’s time to de-clinicalize the discussion by describing abortion in plain, non-PC language. Words like killing, murder, heresy, heretic need no explanation as the meaning of all are quite well documented and understood. The use of these words, graphic abortion video’s, descriptions of abortion procedures and pictures of aborted babies all have thier place and purpose in the debate. The language needs to be as ugly as the abortion procedures.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
 
Well, you can say ‘potahto’ and I’ll tell it like it is. It’s time to de-clinicalize the discussion by describing abortion in plain, non-PC language. Words like killing, murder, heresy, heretic need no explanation as the meaning of all are quite well documented and understood.
And, as has been quite astutely predicted by estesbob, the conversation degenerates into exactly what the pro-aborts want. Instead of their getting rational, thought-provoking arguments that make them go, “Huh. I don’t have an answer to that…let me think about it more.” The discussion segues into an irrelevant discussion about semantics.

Just what the devil ordered, eh? Let’s not provide rational arguments but get sidetracked.
The use of these words, graphic abortion video’s, descriptions of abortion procedures and pictures of aborted babies all have thier place and purpose in the debate. The language needs to be as ugly as the abortion procedures.
To be sure.

But, just as Catholics believe that the Bible is the Word of God, we don’t use it to provide proof texts to Muslims, for that is not their frame of reference. Once they come to understand Christ and Christianity, then it serves you better to use the Scriptures.

You must meet your “opponent” on the arena he belongs.

Otherwise, your apologia is ineffective. 🤷
 
Right.

I really knew that, though.

Just like you really knew why people were mistaking you for a Catholic.

But, again, thank you for removing the designation from your posts.
Just to respond, I know why if it was because people were not presently looking at the upper right hand corner of my posts or my profile.
 
Hello Friends, a few comments about Women’s Reproductive Rights in light of my experience and my friends experience in the OB/Gyn office and at the hospital. We are Catholic women who don’t want to use contraception, are opposed to abortion and favor Natural Family Planning (charting our ovulation and abstaining from sex during fertile days if we have serious mental, physical or financial reasons to not get pregnant) and want a natural birth experience.

-OB/GYN professionals ridicule us when we dare to bring up the Natural Family Planning method. They are laughing at us, treating us like dummies.

-OB/GYN professionals push contraception and abortion on us. They especially push contraception on us 6 weeks after we have given birth to a baby and when we ask them why we should contracept, they are unable to give a rational or scientific reason. They push abortion on us especially when we are over 35 and at risk to have a genetically imperfect baby such as a Down Syndrome baby (by the way 90% of babies diagnosed with DS are aborted). Please note that the extermination of a genetically imperfect baby usually occurs in the second or third trimester because these disorders can’t be diagnosed for sure early in the pregnancy (this kind of abortion is very traumatic for both parents).

-We have to write a “birth plan” stating the procedures and meds that we refuse to receive during and after labor (I want a natural birth experience, no induced labor, no drugs). oh and yes if we go into labor early , we want them to resuscitate our baby if not breathing thank you (this is not to be taken for granted).

-I had to change OB/GYN doctors 3 times because they are all pro contraception/ pro aborts. The first one, 4 years ago, said he wanted to talk to me in his office without my husband. He said: “congratulations, you are 10 weeks pregnant. I want you to come back in 3 weeks to test you for such and such genetic disorder and if the tests are positive, then we will talk about an abortion”. Thanks but no thanks. (And one of his patients says that he is Catholic). Now I have to sign a waiver to refuse all prenatal screenings (let’s face it, the only goal of these tests is to give the option to terminate the pregnancy, not to cure a disease).

-The doc I have now is anti abortion but pro contraception (which I understand, it is such a lucrative business). I don’t trust him 100% because on my last pregnancy, he wanted to induce the labor before term against my will and for no medical reason. I was not sure if the vaginal exam wasn’t an inducing procedure (sweeping of the membranes as it is called). Please note that most induced labors end up in a C-section. Docs don’t cash much money with natural birth.

-In my area, there is one OB/GYN, faithful to Catholic Teachings who practices 100 miles away form my town, in a different State. Some of my friends go to her for yearly exams but she can’t follow up our pregnancies because of the distance.

A few questions:
Is there a silent population control agenda in this country? Is there an eugenic agenda? I am not the kind of “conspiracy theory” person but I have/know of so many experiences of this kind that I can’t help but wonder. Why do I feel discriminated against? Shouldn’t I be able to trust my doctor when I entrust him with my fertility, my health, the health of my babies?
 
Sorry, CMatt:confused:, but Jesus Christ, through His Church, moves beyond the lines of political affiliation. You can believe what you want, but the conservative and liberal sides have their large share of flaws and corruption so, Jesus would not agree with you on this one.

I wish you wouldn’t put Him in such a box.
Sorry if I was taken to say Jesus would be a member of either US major political party. What I meant to say was on the issues I see Him most specifically addressing, I don’t believe He would turn down aid for the poor and to care for the sick, including a government role if offered.
 
If you believe He shall come again PR, then no chaos or confusion when He does.
Well, Matt, if YOU believe He shall come again, then it’s only because this Church which you reject told you so, right?
 
Yes. Jesus was a liberal. In the same way that the CC is liberal. She is socially liberal and morally conservative, just like Christ.

As if she, His Body, could be anything but what He, the Head is. 🤷
I guess in emphasizing a single issue though that’s why politically conservative Catholics don’t vote for candidates who support a stronger govt role in social justice then.
 
Your verses only prove one of my points. At one point in the womb? That’s why our government formed a law to govern a nation of plural beliefs. And when I read the Exodus verses in Ch 21, I see something about the fetus not being quite on par with a woman. But I understand the Magesterium does not see it that way. Peace.
 
We are in agreement, are we not, that just because something is legal, that does not make it morally correct, right?
Yes, we’re in agreement that just because something is legal doesn’t make it morally correct. But I’m sure you’ll disagree with me when I say that just because something is against Church teaching doesn’t always mean it’s immoral. But again, that’s how I feel about it.
In addition to that, a pregnancy is not some sort of disease that needs treatment. The baby is not some sort of cancerous growth that needs to be removed for the health of the woman.
You’re right, a pregnancy is not some sort of disease that needs treatment. However, it makes physiological changes in a woman’s body that can sometimes cause problems for her, such as hypertension and diabetes. And can sometimes exaserbate underlying problems such as pulmonary hypertension or heart disease. These are realities. And the reality is, there are many ways to treat these problems, and it’s just as much a reality that sometimes they cannot be treated and the woman is at dire risk if the pregnancy is continued. One can say that it’s the “sacrifice of lifetime” for a woman to risk her life to continue that pregnancy, and of course it is, but it is also her choice. She has the right to continue the pregnancy and risk her life. And she has the right to consent to any and all treatment prescribed by her doctor to live longer. A Catholic may not feel like they have a choice…and they don’t if they want to remain in communion with the Church. However, it’s still their choice as it is when the patient is not Catholic at all.
Abortion is not “treatment”, it is the removal of a fetus from the womb for the sole purpose of terminating the pregnancy.
Abortion, like it or not, is a sanctioned medical-surgical procedure, and sometimes is prescribed for the cases above.
 
Yet another illustration of the very serious dis-connect for the pro-abort.
 
Right.

I really knew that, though.

Just like you really knew why people were mistaking you for a Catholic.

But, again, thank you for removing the designation from your posts.
Though we’re supposed to talk about the subject at hand, not supposed to talk about members, I feel like I should chime in here. CMatt is a baptized Roman Catholic, therefore he is always and forever Catholic due to that indelible mark made by Baptism in the Trinity. I have no clue why he removed it from his profile, but God and the Vatican didn’t remove it from his soul. No one is mistaking him for a Catholic, that’s not a mistake 🙂
 
Your verses only prove one of my points. At one point in the womb? That’s why our government formed a law to govern a nation of plural beliefs. And when I read the Exodus verses in Ch 21, I see something about the fetus not being quite on par with a woman. But I understand the Magesterium does not see it that way. Peace.
I really wish you would address my comments in Post #608. You see, it is all about **your **understanding. I heard a priest once say of atheists that they are at the height of arrogance. They do not believe in God, therefore He doesn’t exist. 🤷
 
-OB/GYN professionals ridicule us when we dare to bring up the Natural Family Planning method. They are laughing at us, treating us like dummies.
I don’t know why but the only physicians, including OB/GYNs who really know NFP are the fertility doctors. It’s a shame really.
-OB/GYN professionals push contraception and abortion on us. They especially push contraception on us 6 weeks after we have given birth to a baby
I know that a lot of people say this, and again, I don’t know why doctors do that. But I personally have never had doctors who have pushed contraception on me. I’ve had them offer for a medical reason, but they were totally fine with me not wanting contraceptives.
-We have to write a “birth plan” stating the procedures and meds that we refuse to receive during and after labor (I want a natural birth experience, no induced labor, no drugs). oh and yes if we go into labor early , we want them to resuscitate our baby if not breathing thank you (this is not to be taken for granted).
That has to do with malpractice and insurance issues. OB/GYNs have the HIGHEST malpractice insurance rates and they are the largest users of them. Many doctors have left their practice for other states, or even other areas of medicine due to the high malpraactice insurance. However, it’s a good idea anyway to do these things anyway. You want to always make your wishes known. However, when you do actually do these things (make your lists, make your needs known), I would have extremely high expectations of my caregivers. In other words, if they ask you to make these choices, they darned well honor your wishes and deliver what you choose.
-I had to change OB/GYN doctors 3 times because they are all pro contraception/ pro
It’s not unusual to doctor shop. Just keep doing it until you find what you’re looking for.
-The doc I have now is anti abortion but pro contraception (which I understand, it is such a lucrative business).** I don’t trust him 100% because on my last pregnancy, he wanted to induce the labor before term against my will and for no medical reason. I was not sure if the vaginal exam wasn’t an inducing procedure (sweeping of the membranes as it is called). **Please note that most induced labors end up in a C-section. Docs don’t cash much money with natural birth.
This is exactly why the woman’s right to consent or refuse treatment is soooo important and I fight for it. I don’t trust your doctor 2% if you in any way at all think he violated your rights. And I wouldn’t go back. And it’s always a good idea to bring someone with you to your doctor’s office especially when you’re pregnant and planning a birth.

Sorry, I know you’ll disagree with me and that’s okay. But I don’t give a rat’s petutie whether my doctor is pro-life or pro-choice, or whether or not they like contraceptives. What matters to me is if they honor MY wishes and do what I want in my case. If they are capable of being impartial and will do what I want, I don’t care what they think because I have to trust that they will honor my wishes. As healthcare providers they MUST be able to set aside their personal feelings and biases and deliver the care their patient requires. I won’t have a doctor that I can’t trust to do just that.
A few questions:
Is there a silent population control agenda in this country? Is there an eugenic agenda? I am not the kind of “conspiracy theory” person but I have/know of so many experiences of this kind that I can’t help but wonder. Why do I feel discriminated against? Shouldn’t I be able to trust my doctor when I entrust him with my fertility, my health, the health of my babies?
I don’t think those agendas exist. I think that there are insurance and malpractice issues that the doctors are dealing with. You need to sign waivers for those tests because the general public wants them, and requires them and the doctors can get in trouble if they don’t provide them. Doctor have to educate you about these tests and educate you about your options — this is different that pushing them. Doctors have to be very careful that they have disclosed all the information and have gotten consent or refusal from you.

Personally, I think you feel discriminated against because you’re unable to find a strong advocate for you. You need to find a doctor or a nurse that will fight for you to the death 😉 and honor your wishes whether they agree with your opinions or not. And yes, they exist. However, they are still responsible for full disclosure. So rather than get upset about what they’re trying to disclose, I’d just calmly say, “no, that’s not what I want, I want this” etc.

And yes, you absolutely have to trust your doctors and nurses. Keep looking until you do. But my advise to you is that it is more important to find someone who is willing to honor your wishes despite having a different opinion that you, rather than trying to find a match to your views. Sorry, but I’ve never found IRL the scrupulosity that I have found on online forums and you might find one if you look hard enough, but IMOHO it’s more important to find someone who understand your needs and who will comply with your wishes. They are out there. It’s their job.
 
Do you honestly believe that Christ would establish Christianity and then leave us orphans, floundering with all manner of unanswered moral questions and beset by evil, without establishing the TRUTH regarding His Kingdom which would enable us to gain eternal life? Again, without question - moral relativism.

Christ invites you to embrace the fullness of life which is truth. It is in **not **being able to conform our own understanding and will to truth that makes us feel unwelcomed.

Too bad you place civil law above divine law. But a natural consequence following the first two statements.
Plenty was said about truth and gaining eternal life.

Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever
believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

Jn 6: 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

Jn 6:47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life.

Acts 16:30. 31 And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved? But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Mt 25:31-46 on achieving eternal righteousness.

And about welcoming Jn 6:37.

Again it is not moral relativism when the existence of one truth is not denied. But if claiming me to be a relativist because I understand we speak and walk only by faith, then so be it. And again trust me if continuously labeling me a relativist is meant to make me feel bad, it does not in anyway.

You don’t know me to say I personally place civil law ahead of my faith in divine law. But when living in a secular society of plurals faith and beliefs, civil law is what rules such a society. Not anyone’s particular faith. Again God bless you and each of us on our faith journeys and peace.
 
If you’re a Socialist outside the US, you are not under our laws. You are under your own country’s laws while being a citizen there.
 
Your verses only prove one of my points. At one point in the womb? That’s why our government formed a law to govern a nation of plural beliefs. And when I read the Exodus verses in Ch 21, I see something about the fetus not being quite on par with a woman. But I understand the Magesterium does not see it that way. Peace.
At the point where new life is present. And of course we dont need Scriprute to tell us that seperate, distinct human life is present from the moment the egg is fertilized.
 
Well, Matt, if YOU believe He shall come again, then it’s only because this Church which you reject told you so, right?
If you’re refering to who compiled the Bible PR, I’ve had Protestant friends tell me God could use whoever He wanted for whatever purpose He deemed. Or that straying occurred and hense Christ needed to reform to keep the gates from prevailing.
 
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