Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

[mlchance]

Here is some supporting evidence on the subject of sentience, the above reasoning on which I agree with.

Sentience equals the ability to feel pain?

I think it goes to the heart of the fetus having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby.

A baby can only survive outside the womb if cared for. The baby is still wholly dependent on another for life; only the manner of dependence has changed.

IMO, the fetus does not equal a human, it hasn’t even formed enough to be aware of itself or life…

Now please demonstrate the rationality of your opinion that humanity depends on the ability to be aware.

…The other is the seeming lack of regard for born children living in poverty and/or otherwise suffering. Many end up dead as a result of poverty (crime, lack of preventive healtcase, decent housing, etc, etc - all the evils of poverty) yet most pro-life folks are the same ones who vote to cut funding to programs these children need to survive.

Now you’re really just making stuff up. Please present hard data that “most pro-life folks” support not helping children who live in poverty.

Why is it so hard for pro-abortion advocates to advance a coherent argument in favor of their position?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rlg94086]

Why is it so hard for pro-abortion advocates to advance a coherent argument in favor of their position?

That’s a rhetorical question, right?

Certainly, it is impossible for a Catholic pro-abortion advocate to advance any pro-abortion argument from a Catholic viewpoint.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s a rhetorical question, right?

Certainly, it is impossible for a Catholic pro-abortion advocate to advance any pro-abortion argument from a Catholic viewpoint.

“Well, it has to do with ensoulment and a nunaced position. The Catechism is just a crib sheet, you know. And you see everything in black and white. And you think like a Protestant.”

Sound familiar?

 

[rlg94086]

“Well, it has to do with ensoulment and a nunaced position. The Catechism is just a crib sheet, you know. And you see everything in black and white. And you think like a Protestant.”

Sound familiar?

So, you are saying it will take more than 5-6 paragraphs, eh? What is it ole BamaRider calls it…a weather report?

 

[leftistdestroye]

Swan;3616604]

yet most pro-life folks are the same ones who vote to cut funding to programs these children need to survive. That’s murder, IMO. And the argument is usually that “forced taxing” is bad - it is not the government’s place to help the poor. So, as I understand it, it is okay for the government to step in and tell me what to do, but not you. It is okay for the government to insist the children are born but wrong for them to play a role in trying to assure the kids have a decent change at life? Sorry, but to me that is pure hypocrisy. I’m more concerned about those who suffer every day than I am about those who aren’t developed enough to suffer at all

It is the governments job to protect the people from foreign invaders, not coddle the people, that is our job. The quality of life is not the government’s responsibillity. The Framers were free and independant people and created a governmnet of the same. They SPECIFICALLY wanted a limited government. Back then and for most of our history, life was 500 times harder than it is now, and forced charity was not legislated. If you are concerned about poor suffering people, like we all are, then stop exherting your energy on the government, and do something about it yourself. You seem to want to set up a machine that will take care of suffering for you while you feel good about it. I say, get up and do it yourself. Nobody is stopping you. Lead by example. Get off of these forums and go help people. Teach them how to fish. And that, I promise, will make you feel real good.

 

[leftistdestroye]

SimonArizona;3616728]

The choice has already been made; to have sex which leads to children-that is its intention. A world that loves pleasure more than God perverts the holiness of the sex act. Orgasm is god. that is his name, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh is the way to orgasm whom they serve. Self-mastery and discipline are unfavorable words for a people who are incontinent.

Children are not seen as the gift of God that revelation and experience also tell us that they are indeed. God of compassion, have mercy on us disobedient children, turn our hearts towards the love and joy and salvation of obedience to the commandments which are life. amen

Well said, man

 

[mapleoak]

I think it goes to the heart of the fetus having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby.

I was hoping with this thread, that pro-abortion advocates would be able to advance some more substantial arguments to justify their support of abortion than the typical diatribe that is all too common. Guess I was asking too much.
Yes, it goes to the heart of the unborn baby having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby.

IMO, the fetus does not equal a human,

Sure it does, your opinion is flat out wrong. It is fully human on all fronts, biologically, scientifically, and theologically.

it hasn’t even formed enough to be aware of itself or life (unlike someone in a coma or PVS who has developed that ability, so PLEASE do not compare the two as I am not doing so).

To be unaware is to not be human as much as to be asleep is to not be human.

There are a couple of other aspects as well - one is the “Silent Scream” issue which was used to suggest that aborted fetus’s feel pain when they do not.

That’s like saying “well, they’ve been to the moon and picked up moon rocks and said the moon is not made of cheese, but I don’t believe them. I say the moon is made of cheese”. It is not a suggestion that unborn children being aborted feel pain, it is a fact. Videos such as “Silent Scream” make that bluntly obvious to all but the willfully ignorant and self deceivers.

The other is the seeming lack of regard for born children living in poverty and/or otherwise suffering.

Support needed for this claim. Are you claiming there is a lack of regard for the poor in general, or are you somehow advancing the claim that there is some kind of correlation between being anti-murder and being disdainful of the poor?

Many end up dead as a result of poverty (crime, lack of preventive healtcase, decent housing, etc, etc - all the evils of poverty)

You have lost pretty much all credibility by that statement. I am most certain you can ask any staunch pro-lifer what their view is on charitable works and you will get a totally opposite view of what you believe it to be. Of all the militant pro-lifers I know, they are among the most charitable of people I know.

That’s murder, IMO. And the argument is usually that “forced taxing” is bad - it is not the government’s place to help the poor.

Opposing redistribution is not murder. Killing innocent human beings is murder.

So, as I understand it, it is okay for the government to step in and tell me what to do, but not you. It is okay for the government to insist the children are born but wrong for them to play a role in trying to assure the kids have a decent change at life?

A cow gives milk so you shouldn’t cut hay with scissors. Here is a quiz. Can you tell how what one cuts the hay with that a cow eats has to do with whether it gives milk or not? Is a farmer typically only concerned about the cow giving milk or would it be reasonable to say a farmer is going to be concerned with whether his cow gets enough to eat so it can produce milk? Or is his solution to just stop milking the cow? No milk, no need to feed it hay, problem solved.

Sorry, but to me that is pure hypocrisy. I’m more concerned about those who suffer every day than I am about those who aren’t developed enough to suffer at all.

You would rather people be murdered that way you don’t have to be bothered or inconvenienced by them. Heaven forbid there would be another person for you to show charity toward.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So, you are saying it will take more than 5-6 paragraphs, eh? What is it ole BamaRider calls it…a weather report?

Whether it takes more than 5-6 paragraphs or not, you can bet your sweet bippy you’re gonna get more than 5-6 paragraphs.

 

[wabrams]

I think it goes to the heart of the fetus having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby. IMO, the fetus does not equal a human, it hasn’t even formed enough to be aware of itself or life

Do you think a neonate nows it’s alive? At what age able to form the awareness to know we are alive? By your standards, it is ok to kill a child up to the first year to year and a half.

 

[neat62]

Do you think a neonate nows it’s alive? At what age able to form the awareness to know we are alive? By your standards, it is ok to kill a child up to the first year to year and a half.

Actually by Swan’s standards…it would be even longer than that, because she stated that one needs to be able to survive on its own…and surely, a 1 /12 year old…2 year old…is not able to survive on their own.

Its really a ridiculous statement…amazing isn’t it…the nonsense people will believe to justify their own selfishness.

 

[mapleoak]

Actually by Swan’s standards…it would be even longer than that, because she stated that one needs to be able to survive on its own…and surely, a 1 /12 year old…2 year old…is not able to survive on their own.

Its really a ridiculous statement…amazing isn’t it…the nonsense people will believe to justify their own selfishness.

I’ve always wondered where the idea that having dependency equals being disposable comes from. Actually its funny when people take an action they are attached to and rationalize ways to make it justified. This rather than the opposite which is having reason determine whether something is justified.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Actually by Swan’s standards…it would be even longer than that, because she stated that one needs to be able to survive on its own…and surely, a 1 /12 year old…2 year old…is not able to survive on their own.

Its really a ridiculous statement…amazing isn’t it…the nonsense people will believe to justify their own selfishness.

That same standard would justify euthanasia. Come visit the nursing home where my wife works, and I can show you dozens of people who, if turned out and forced to exist on their own, would quickly die.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Of course a preborn baby, is a human being from conception. What else could it possibly be? If the DNA from the embryo is analyzed, it does not come back as being anything other than human.

Has anyone ever seen an elephant embryo…, at 4 months they are significantly smaller than humans of the same age. They still have another year and a half before birth. But If I show a picture to my 3 year old and ask, “what is that?” She answers, “an elephant.” Does it turn into an elephant 2, 4, 6 months before birth?

When did I turn human, if I didn’t start out human? And if I turned human at some other point, what was I before that?

 

[kesa82]

I cringe even to reply.

One word: Money.

The tax burden I already have is crushing . ( YES IT IS. you live in your car, uninsured, with zero savings, and still paying one-third in taxes and then you tell me " crushing " isn’t accurate. I have lived that way most of my working life. no this isnt my computer.)

I simply cannot pay anymore or I simply won’t make enough even to buy groceries and keep working to pay the taxes.

If you keep squeezing me the next stop for me is prison ; vagrancy is against the law.

And I suspect that if you keep ignoring the fact that this largesse must be paid for , the next stop for the US and western world is economic depression.

I despise abortion, I don’t like birth control at all either. I have lived celibate all my 40 years for the simple reason that I have nothing to offer a wife or children but destitution. - So I have no personal stake in this issue one way or another.

How can I continue to pay ever more taxes to support all these children, especially when you flatly deny such people as I and our circumstances exist? errrr, I have said enough.

 

[kesa82]

I will add one more thing. I rather suspect that if you gave responsibility and authority back to the family, and ruthlessly pruned back the welfare state, and went back to absolute monarchy - all of which I endorse btw, then abortion would cease to be much of an issue. I cannot shake the feeling this whole thing is really about who gets to take the money I earned.

 

[mapleoak]

One word: Money.

Money, indeed is more important to some than someone ELSES life.

The tax burden I already have is crushing . ( YES IT IS. you live in your car, uninsured, with zero savings, and still paying one-third in taxes and then you tell me " crushing " isn’t accurate. I have lived that way most of my working life. no this isnt my computer.)

And for these reasons murder is acceptable? Sucking a babies brains out or scalding them in brine is okay because of a heavy tax burden? Bad personal choices justify tearing people limb from limb?

 

[st_lucy]

I cringe even to reply.

One word: Money.

The tax burden I already have is crushing . ( YES IT IS. you live in your car, uninsured, with zero savings, and still paying one-third in taxes and then you tell me " crushing " isn’t accurate. I have lived that way most of my working life. no this isnt my computer.)

I simply cannot pay anymore or I simply won’t make enough even to buy groceries and keep working to pay the taxes.

If you keep squeezing me the next stop for me is prison ; vagrancy is against the law.

And I suspect that if you keep ignoring the fact that this largesse must be paid for , the next stop for the US and western world is economic depression.

I despise abortion, I don’t like birth control at all either. I have lived celibate all my 40 years for the simple reason that I have nothing to offer a wife or children but destitution. - So I have no personal stake in this issue one way or another.

How can I continue to pay ever more taxes to support all these children, especially when you flatly deny such people as I and our circumstances exist? errrr, I have said enough.

I think you do have a personal stake in this issue, since this is your fellow neighbor who is being torn apart simply because as you so nicely put it they are more than a burden for you to care for.

Also who are all these people who denying your existence? Has someone run up to you lately and pulled out one of your limbs, or drilled a whole in your head simply because they don’t see why you are taking their taxes? The only people I have seen here in the good ol’ USA who are flatly denied existence is the unborn.

 

[leftistdestroye]

kesa82;3641707]

I

cringe even to reply.

One word: Money.

The tax burden I already have is crushing . ( YES IT IS. you live in your car, uninsured, with zero savings, and still paying one-third in taxes and then you tell me " crushing " isn’t accurate. I have lived that way most of my working life. no this isnt my computer.)

I simply cannot pay anymore or I simply won’t make enough even to buy groceries and keep working to pay the taxes.

If you keep squeezing me the next stop for me is prison ; vagrancy is against the law.

And I suspect that if you keep ignoring the fact that this largesse must be paid for , the next stop for the US and western world is economic depression.

I despise abortion, I don’t like birth control at all either. I have lived celibate all my 40 years for the simple reason that I have nothing to offer a wife or children but destitution. - So I have no personal stake in this issue one way or another.

How can I continue to pay ever more taxes to support all these children, especially when you flatly deny such people as I and our circumstances exist? errrr, I have said enough.

Dude, most of the money that you pay in taxes, go to support old people. Social Security, Medicare/aid, etc. But if you think that supporting children is bad, wait until the boomers retire! You should either 1) become a preist now 2) quit yor job and make minumim wage, which pays nothing in taxes(basically) 3) retire.

 

[Starwynd]

I’m sorry but I have many problems with abortion and cannot make my mind up on the matter. I do believe it’s wrong yes, but the thing that makes it problematic for me is that if you make abortion illegal, then that means you end up forcing women to give birth. And to me, that is equally as deplorable.

 

[leftistdestroye]

Starwynd;3645185]

I’m sorry but I have many problems with abortion and cannot make my mind up on the matter. I do believe it’s wrong yes, but the thing that makes it problematic for me is that if you make abortion illegal, then that means you end up forcing women to give birth. And to me, that is equally as deplorable.

And who forced them to get pregnant in the first place? And this has more to do with the life of the unborn, that the parents created, not whether a woman has birth or not. The choice is made, before sex, not after. And how is giving birth equal to a pair of scissors in the back of a DEFENSLESS child’s head? Shall I show you the pictures? You can compare an abortion to a birth and then if you tell me that they are equal, I will $&!^ a brick.