Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

[marietta]

Mary Gail 36:

Your joyful story is not new to me. My daughter is 21 years old. I was splitting with her father, chose to continue the pregnancy, knew in labor that I would divorce him, and raised her by myself.

I’ve also endured the confusion and dismay over two miscarriages.

I’ve also suffered the anguish over a therapeutic abortion which took place before Roe v Wade.

I’ve been to every table here except that at which everyone demands spiritually correct behavior according to the group conscience.

This is my life tapestry. I stand by my refusal to heap judgment and dogma onto any woman when it comes to abortion.

Sorry if you can’t dig it.

marietta

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Mary Gail 36:

I stand by my refusal to heap judgment and dogma onto any woman when it comes to abortion.

Sorry if you can’t dig it.

marietta

About 22 years ago, a classmate of mine was pregnant. She was 15 and became pregnant after one time with an older guy.

She was confused, scared and did not know what to do. She contemplated giving the baby up for adoption…she thought the older guy would help her do this. He helped her by giving her 500 dollars. A 15 year old girl had an abortion, by herself and no one needed to know. Not her family no one.

One day, in study hall, her head was down on her desk. She was sobbing. Sobbing in a way that I never heard a person cry…I couldn’t tell if she was laughing or crying. She raised her head and said “It had hands…It had feet.” with tears rolling down her face.

No one helped this girl. People were quick to tell her to get an abortion so her parents wouldn’t know that she had had sex with some idiot. How many victims in this story? I doubt she would have cried in anguish if she was allowed to give birth and hold her baby, even if she were to give the baby up for adoption.

I was young too…she wasn’t my friend, just a girl in my class…but If I could have said something to her anything, maybe her situation would have been different.

Another story…my father worked with a man whose wife became pregnant. He confided in my father that his wife was pregnant and that she wanted to get an abortion. My dad told him, “Well what did you tell her?” He said that it was none of his business. My Dad would have loved a house full of kids, but didn’t get them. He looked at him incredulously,…“Aren’t you a man…that is your baby…you are supposed to care for it, and you say it’s not your business…”

The day came for her appointment, the cab was waiting for her and my Dad, (God bless him), knew the wife and spoke to her. He was the one who decided that it was his business to talk to her. He spoke to her for a while and among some of the things he said was, “Where there is life there is hope.” She cried and told the cab to leave. She had a baby girl…If my father had minded his business, she wouldn’t be here.

I’m sorry, I can’t dig it…because no matter how terrible the situation might seem, there is always a better choice than abortion. LIFE

 

[SoCalRC]

Tell us how you use a helmet liner with a PASGT helmet.

The PASGT helmet uses a webbing suspension system. Unlike the M-1 helmet I was issued in Vietnam, there isn’t really a distinct shell and hardhat like remable liner. When we talk about sending a ‘helmet liner’ for a PASGT helmet, we are generally talking about an upgrade kit to foam suspension, which is not only more comfortable, it also helps reduce traumatic brain injury. Also, the 2 point chin strap can be upgraded to a four point chin strap.

The PASGT is actually being phased out in all services. The MICH helmet already uses a decent foam suspension system design, but has some serious comfort problems. A helmet won’t protect your head if it isn’t worn, so when we say ‘helmet liner’ here, it is usually a comfort accessory that does not diminish effectiveness.

ACH and LWH are both improvements on the MICH design. The problem is poor quality. The later pads are not just uncomfortable, but shoddy. This has soldiers replacing pads with things like rolled up socks, which is a lot more comfortable, but which elliminates the trauma protective aspect of the foam. So when we are talking about ‘helmet liners’ here we are generally talking about quality pads that were used in the helmets originally.

 

[SoCalRC]

Tell us how you use a helmet liner with a PASGT helmet.

As always, I gave you a straight and honest answer above. But this is a topic that we have discussed before.

For that matter, so is Blackwater and its use of Pinochet thugs. So it seems odd that you had no recollection when Mizer was confused, choosing to fuel her rage instead of giving her proper context.

But that seems to be something of a habit for you. When Bamarider was venting that a particular candidate was inarguably ‘pro life’, you spured him on. But your persistant evasiveness when I then directly asked you rather or not the candidate’s position is intrinsically evil in Catholic Doctrine suggests you knew better at the time.

I’ve never had much patience for those who egg on others do to their fighting for them, having been taught to equate such antics with cowardice at a young age. But wouldn’t concealing the truth for the purposes of fueling another’s anger fall under the Church’s understanding of the 8th commandment?

 

[neat62]

mdr:

In most cases the embryo has grown into a fetus, to which I have referred in several previous posts, so I honestly don’t believe I’ve sidestepped that issue. Sometimes, as in a hydatidiform, or molar, pregnancy, the tissue which is aspirated is an overgrowth of placenta which mimics a pregnancy, although this is rare. So for the purpose of clarity I will again state that I understand and concur that the “entity” within the uterus of the woman is a developing, living human being.

As far as supporting laws which forbid and penalize the destruction of nesting or gestating endangered animals, say, spotted owls or bald eagles: I understand the parallel here but feel that, no matter whether laws are in place or not, there will always be people who choose to circumvent them. And in the case of abortion, there is currently no law in this country which forbids a woman to have an abortion (up to 20 weeks in some places and 24 weeks in Kansas). This is where your parallel divides. So we are back to the matter of choice and individual conscience.

By the way, nowhere in any of my posts have I declared that I endorse abortion. I have only said that I support a woman’s right to choose to have or not to have an abortion, and that my opinion on the matter of her choice is null, void and immaterial. Abortion is a profoundly sad process, one which can linger for the lifetime of the mother. It most definitely hits with significant mental, psychological and spiritual impact, as it should. Few women have their fetuses aspirated at 1:00 p.m. and are in the nail salon at 3:00 p.m. Abortion does not leave a mother unchanged, except those who are so ignorant as to use it as their regular form of birth control.

I appreciate your sensible and thoughtful approach here; I guess we must just agree to disagree on some of the points of this subject.

neat62:

I do not support the horror of abortion. I support the individual mother’s legal right to choose to have or not to have an abortion. And your opinion on the decision that any woman makes in pregnancy carries no more weight than mine.
marietta

You are totally fooling yourself. You are supporting the horror of abortion. The statement above is like saying, “I don’t support the horror of murder, but I support the murderer’s choice to commit it”

Absolutely ridiculous and again, is typical of the liberal left…anything to further the “all about me” mentality!

 

[neat62]

About 22 years ago, a classmate of mine was pregnant. She was 15 and became pregnant after one time with an older guy.

She was confused, scared and did not know what to do. She contemplated giving the baby up for adoption…she thought the older guy would help her do this. He helped her by giving her 500 dollars. A 15 year old girl had an abortion, by herself and no one needed to know. Not her family no one.

One day, in study hall, her head was down on her desk. She was sobbing. Sobbing in a way that I never heard a person cry…I couldn’t tell if she was laughing or crying. She raised her head and said “It had hands…It had feet.” with tears rolling down her face.

No one helped this girl. People were quick to tell her to get an abortion so her parents wouldn’t know that she had had sex with some idiot. How many victims in this story? I doubt she would have cried in anguish if she was allowed to give birth and hold her baby, even if she were to give the baby up for adoption.

I was young too…she wasn’t my friend, just a girl in my class…but If I could have said something to her anything, maybe her situation would have been different.

Another story…my father worked with a man whose wife became pregnant. He confided in my father that his wife was pregnant and that she wanted to get an abortion. My dad told him, “Well what did you tell her?” He said that it was none of his business. My Dad would have loved a house full of kids, but didn’t get them. He looked at him incredulously,…“Aren’t you a man…that is your baby…you are supposed to care for it, and you say it’s not your business…”

The day came for her appointment, the cab was waiting for her and my Dad, (God bless him), knew the wife and spoke to her. He was the one who decided that it was his business to talk to her. He spoke to her for a while and among some of the things he said was, “Where there is life there is hope.” She cried and told the cab to leave. She had a baby girl…If my father had minded his business, she wouldn’t be here.

I’m sorry, I can’t dig it…because no matter how terrible the situation might seem, there is always a better choice than abortion. LIFE

Indeed!!

 

[fix]

I do not support the horror of abortion. I support the individual mother’s legal right to choose to have or not to have an abortion. And your opinion on the decision that any woman makes in pregnancy carries no more weight than mine.

Is murder now simply a matter of one’s opinion?

 

[Swan]

QUOTE=YADA;3583924 "the abortion is not safe for the child …a few survive, but those that do usually suffer defects from the ‘abortion’ procedure … I have a friend who adopted just such a little boy some 16 years ago… "

To say that abortion is not safe for the child is not a response to my points and is a very bad argument against abortion given that the intent of abortion is not to produce a child at all. A few children survive traumatic births with defects and are adopted out. But I wouldn’t use that as an argument against giving birth, that would be irrelevant at best.

"…and it is not true that most abortions are at 8 weeks or less … in fact women are usually just realizing that they are pregnant at 8 weeks … "

This is an example of the view that women are somehow mentally wanting. The overwhelming majority of menstruating women keep track of their cycles both in their head and on paper… Unless the circumstances are highly unusual, it does not take a normal woman 4 weeks (a whopping 28 days) to notice that she hasn’t menstruated. Forgive me for assuming that you are a bloke.

For women who do not want a baby and find themselves pregnant, the abortion is carried out as soon as possible, normally before 8 weeks, definitely before 14.

"most abortions are late first trimester early scond … but in the US Roe V Wade and it companion decision made abortion on demand the law of the land right up to the point of birth … also called partial birth abortion where the child is delivered except for the head and then the babies brains are sucked out … "

Right. More graphic descriptions please, because they help your argument - not.

In the one state of Australian where accurate data is available, 98% of all terminations were conducted before 14 weeks. That is well below the threshold for pain let alone sentience. 2% of abortions might have been performed using the method you describe - might have been. That 2% of abortions are performed that way is not a good reason for prohibiting the other 98%.

“Abortion is always a moral evil … it leads to a cheapening of all life …”

Actually I think that enslaving children so that the rich west can eat cheap chocolate bars is a cheapening of human life. But I’m entitled to my opinion am I not?

I was hoping for a response that addressed my points, not more of the same old sentimental religious based rhetoric. I’m disappointed.

Emervents

I’ve been down this road before but felt the need to step in and say that I totally agree with you. I do so because I know from experience that you will encounter hostility galore and little, if any, respect or even consideration of your (our) opinion. This is just a non-starter for most of these folks who will equate those like us with baby killers regardless of what we say.

One above post made a comment about abortion clinics being in poor/minority areas. What this person failed to address was that many of these women are on some kind of government assistance as would be their kids. The majority of people here have a real problem with any kind of social welfare programs, so the idea that the inability to obtain an abortion would add to the welfare roles probably bothers them; they’d rather the kids just be thrown on the mercy of private charity.

I asked on another thread how folks would feel about social programs if Roe were overturned and thousands more children were born into poverty. Would they support increased gov. aid to the poor? 99.9% said no. I find this to be hypocricy of the highest order.

 

[fix]

I’ve been down this road before but felt the need to step in and say that I totally agree with you. I do so because I know from experience that you will encounter hostility galore and little, if any, respect or even consideration of your (our) opinion. This is just a non-starter for most of these folks who will equate those like us with baby killers regardless of what we say.

One above post made a comment about abortion clinics being in poor/minority areas. What this person failed to address was that many of these women are on some kind of government assistance as would be their kids. The majority of people here have a real problem with any kind of social welfare programs, so the idea that the inability to obtain an abortion would add to the welfare roles probably bothers them; they’d rather the kids just be thrown on the mercy of private charity.

I asked on another thread how folks would feel about social programs if Roe were overturned and thousands more children were born into poverty. Would they support increased gov. aid to the poor? 99.9% said no. I find this to be hypocricy of the highest order.

What a peculiar argument. It seems you claim that abortion is justified based on money?

 

[rlg94086]

I asked on another thread how folks would feel about social programs if Roe were overturned and thousands more children were born into poverty. Would they support increased gov. aid to the poor? 99.9% said no. I find this to be hypocricy of the highest order.

That makes absolutely zero sense. Those same people, no doubt, believe in private charity and personal responsibility. How does saying that one does not support government aid equate to not caring for the poor? How does ending abortion (which btw won’t happen if Roe v Wade is overturned…but I digress) equate to a requirement that government’s take care of someone who has children?

Your claim of hypocricy rings very hollow and just shows a lack of charity towards others on your part. Now, if you personally believe that abortion should be banned *and *government aid to the poor increased, then at least you are taking an equally Catholic position on abortion.

 

[rlg94086]

What a peculiar argument. It seems you claim that abortion is justified based on money?

It does read that way…it is cheaper for the rest of us if the poor kill their unborn children.

 

[fix]

It does read that way…it is cheaper for the rest of us if the poor kill their unborn children.

Apparently.

 

[marietta]

fix:

All right, if we’re going to play the semantics game, let me rephrase:

" . . . And your absolute disgust, horror and repugnance upon learning of any woman’s decision to terminate her pregnancy carries no more weight than Catholic Kat’s or rlg94086’s or neat62’s or Mary Gail 36’s . . ." Nor does it trump my thoughts or feelings about her choice.

Marinate in this for a few minutes: I don’t like abortion. I find it appalling that in one clinic I know of in Texas, 30-40 procedures are carried out every single day, six days a week, 52 weeks a year. What does that say about the ignorance of the boys and girls and men and women who cannot seem to successfully manage their reproductive lives? It is a travesty. Abortion is sterile, it’s legal, and it’s sad. I pray for the mothers, the fathers, the families (although I’m sure many of you are not resisting the temptation here to wonder just who it is I’m praying to, but that’s irrelevant). I pray for the babies, perfect, imperfect, without brains, with spina bifida, with blue eyes, with black hair, with all ten toes and all ten fingers, or with absolutely crushed facial figures and limbs due to insufficient amniotic fluid through the fault of no one.

Tremendous sadness, a pain in my gut, the knowledge that these people will likely suffer as a result of their actions - *none of these *things gives me permission or the authority to try to influence the woman as she decides what she will do. I believe in the freedom to choose. Every single one of you has chosen your paths. It isn’t free will if she is being taunted and shamed and ridiculed and made to feel guilty. Believe me, there’s plenty of that in the minds of most women seeking abortions without you yammering on and on and on about murder.

So feel the way you feel. Think the way you think. I will do the same. And if Roe is overturned it will not change the abortion statistics. Women may have to return to self-induced abortions. And so the death stats definitely will increase.

Maybe you think that’s justice.

marietta

 

[Catholic_Kat]

fix:

Tremendous sadness, a pain in my gut, the knowledge that these people will likely suffer as a result of their actions - *none of these *things gives me permission or the authority to try to influence the woman as she decides what she will do. I believe in the freedom to choose. Every single one of you has chosen your paths. It isn’t free will if she is being taunted and shamed and ridiculed and made to feel guilty. Believe me, there’s plenty of that in the minds of most women seeking abortions without you yammering on and on and on about murder.

So feel the way you feel. Think the way you think. I will do the same.

Every single person on this blog believes in freedom of choice and free will. And, Marietta, both of these are good things so long as they do not cause one to go against the will of God. Would someone have the freedom to rob banks if he chooses to do so? No! Freedom to choose never supersedes the law of God --and God said “thou shall not steal.” The same goes with abortion. A person’s freedom to choose can not supercede the laws regarding murder. And just because something is legal, does NOT make it morally right or God’s will. Take slavery --that was legal, but even if the law approved it, it was morally wrong and everyone knows it. Freedom to choose/Free will is NOT a license to do whatever you please.
Sadly, I think Marietta, like so many other Americans, has fallen victim to the “new religion” —Relativism. This “religion” puts God on the backburner and replaces His will with the “freedom to do whatever I want, so long as I feel it is right and my personal conscience approves of it.”

 

[ribozyme]

Sadly, I think Marietta, like so many other Americans, has fallen victim to the “new religion” —Relativism. This “religion” puts God on the backburner and replaces His will with the “freedom to do whatever I want, so long as I feel it is right and my personal conscience approves of it.”

Tell me, what is “relativism?”

 

[marietta]

Catholic Kat:

Yes, free will specifically allows for one to choose behaviors which are not in alignment with the will of God. That is what makes it *free will. * To use your example, every bank robber has the freedom to rob a bank if he or she chooses to. I never claimed that making a morally corrupt decision supercedes the will of God (or the local, state or federal laws). Free will, free choice is the greatest gift we have been given. Most of us, myself included, have at one time or another abused that gift. It is not rescinded because we abuse it. Though it may break God’s heart, He continues to allow us the freedom to make choices.

Yes, there will be a penalty attached to morally corrupt behaviors. The penalty is to be paid by the offender. Free will is an invitation by God to choose the right thing. The participants in this choice are the human being faced with a challenge and the God of his or her understanding. If that person makes a choice which violates the law of God, he or she will pay for it. Is that not what you believe Purgatory and Hell are for?

Does God not forgive the sinner? After abortion, is there no room for redemption? Are there other sins which God refuses to forgive? If so, what are they? If this is the case, all the rhetoric about God being all-merciful is invalid. And if God is truly merciful and all-forgiving, then why aren’t you?

marietta

 

[KeepTrying]

OK, I read the entire thread.

icecubeted , Thank you!

I am pro life and would never kill an unborn child. I’ve helped two young women, friends of my kids, decide to have their babies. One is a big sister to many younger brothers.
The other was adopted and will be 21 years old this summer. I don’t know who he or she is.

I do have difficulty with voting one issue. To me voting for a candidate who will not outlaw abortion is NOT supporting the killing of unborn babies. I have written and called lawmakers trying to change their vote.
We can choose our actions and vote for lawmakers.

But I worry that we don’t have enough help for people considering abortion.
Rather than work fruitlessly to criminalize it maybe the better good would be education, pro-life social workers, and counseling.
We can help make it easier to adopt.

The lack of other social justice issues, education, and such make pro choice candidates hard for me to vote for.
I do support government aid to children and their parents.
I would rather be a fool helping a dishonest slacker than let innocent children suffer and perhaps die.
I have been that kind of fool.

Voting is a practical matter. I cannot believe I am doing wrong to vote for someone who is not in agreement with all my values because none are.
So I do the best I can to determine who will do the most good or the least harm.

Not at all certain about my choices when voting because we cannot predict another’s actions. But I do feel obligated to participate as a citizen in a meaningful way.

Marietta:
I also worry about the return of “back alley” abortions that killed mother and baby all too often. Where we differ is that I do think I have an obligation to try to influence the woman not to kill her baby.
I thank you for praying and hope you don’t mind my prayer. God knows I prayed for you although it was wordless, inadvertent and spontaneous.

 

[fix]

fix:

All right, if we’re going to play the semantics game, let me rephrase:

" . . . And your absolute disgust, horror and repugnance upon learning of any woman’s decision to terminate her pregnancy carries no more weight than Catholic Kat’s or rlg94086’s or neat62’s or Mary Gail 36’s . . ." Nor does it trump my thoughts or feelings about her choice.

Does this mean you reject the fact that objective moral truth exists?

Marinate in this for a few minutes: I don’t like abortion. I find it appalling that in one clinic I know of in Texas, 30-40 procedures are carried out every single day, six days a week, 52 weeks a year. What does that say about the ignorance of the boys and girls and men and women who cannot seem to successfully manage their reproductive lives?

It says many things including that we humans act badly. Is this news?

Tremendous sadness, a pain in my gut, the knowledge that these people will likely suffer as a result of their actions - *none of these *things gives me permission or the authority to try to influence the woman as she decides what she will do.

In a less grandiose age this assertion would be called sociopathy. Why would it be wrong to influence, including through the law, persons to not kill children?

I believe in the freedom to choose. Every single one of you has chosen your paths. It isn’t free will if she is being taunted and shamed and ridiculed and made to feel guilty. Believe me, there’s plenty of that in the minds of most women seeking abortions without you yammering on and on and on about murder.

The goal is not to ridicule or taunt. Truth with love is needed. That truth does not condone murder as a choice. Freedom is never choosing evil. That is license.

So feel the way you feel. Think the way you think. I will do the same. And if Roe is overturned it will not change the abortion statistics. Women may have to return to self-induced abortions. And so the death stats definitely will increase.

Maybe you think that’s justice.

marietta

What a load of propaganda. You see people as incapable of acting correctly. That is a shame and really makes our fellow man seem shallow and self serving. I think we are all capable of more.

 

[Catholic_Kat]

Tell me, what is “relativism?”

Read:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

Basically, the idea that whatever I think is right, is. And whatever you think is right, is. I can’t tell you what is morally right and you can’t tell me. Even religion cannot tell me what is right and what isn’t, I get to choose this for myself. And if you look around at most people today—this is the philosophy they live by --i.e. this thread’s blogger, Marietta. She claims that God gives us free will so that we can do whatever we want and we decide right from wrong --after all, He’ll forgive us for our sins no matter what.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Murdering innocent babies in their mother’s wombs is wrong.

What’s so hard to understand about that?