Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

[Fitswimmer]

I have been in similiar situations when my kids were younger. I don’t recall them reacting at all…I remember though thinking to myself that people marching with these signs at busy intersections, could cause potential accidents. I think that the signs are so striking that one could easily take his/her eyes off of the road to see what is going on. I don’t disagree with the marching with signs, ***because the signs are not the problem–the abortions are…but the delivery is not right to do at a busy intersection in the middle of mainstreet usa. ***I think that those demonstrations need to be coordinated better…they need to be seen, but they shouldn’t be positioned in busy intersections, where onlookers could cause accidents because they are distracting.

I’m curious why news shows don’t do more commentary or documentaries, like Dateline or something…showing the ‘truth about abortions,’ or something. It seems like it’s only discussed in religious circles…on the radio, perhaps an obscure Catholic or Protestant radio channel, or EWTN, but I don’t ever see a thing about abortion being discussed on mainstream tv. I marvel that as a society, we are not defending the unborn.

It’s interesting–I was listening to a program yesterday, discussing stats of abortions in China, and in about 30 years, there are going to be four times the amount of single men, to women, because with the ‘one child per household’ rule in China, girl babies are often aborted, because only households that ‘produce’ male babies, will receive financial rewards, something around $7k, not a lot, but maybe a lot there. I just couldn’t believe that stat, and how the ripple effects of abortion are far reaching.

Well, admittedly this did occur back in the days before rear seat DVD systems, but it would be pretty hard not to look when people were screaming at the stopped cars.

I’m not suggesting that the tactic can’t work, I’m sure there are cases where it has-I simply would prefer that those images not be placed where they might be seen by children.

 

[MIZER]

Hey Fitswimmer,

You still here? I wish to apologize for the last line of my last post to you. I regret the “that’s too dog gone bad.” I don’t mean to be snippy (or nasty) with you. After all you are on the right side of this issue. I just get on a role and it’s hard to turn it off sometimes. I was late for an appointment and didn’t take the time to re-read my post before I hit submit and so now I must back up and say I’m sorry for the harshness of my tone. I hope you will forgive me.

I will take this opportunity to debunk the idea that legalized abortion in a society does not then, breed more evil, using myself as an example.

When I am in the mode of activist, and being admittedly harsh which is in truth, is keeping with the subject matter and is truely the only way to get the attention of those, who have for years aligned themselves with the culture of death, it tends to breed further harshness in myself and I have to make a conscious effort to turn it off and swing the otherway when the situation calls for it.

As you all see, I was wrongly harsh with fitswimmer because I was in a hurry and didn’t have time to make that conscious effort to change my tone which I should have done once I was aware of his misunderstanding me and my approach. I am not only an activist but I have also worked as a counselor in a CPC.

Sin always breeds more sin and it breeds an increasingly grave sin if it is not quickly checked. That’s why venial sin, although not deadly in itself, can lead to death as it breeds more sin which in turn breeds increasingly grave sin, which can be deadly. The evil of legalized abortion in a free society very obviously breeds more evil and in the past 35 years we have seen a marked increase in child abuse of every kind (“every child a wanted child” not-withstanding) as well as an increase in the percentages of every crime immaginable, that is an asault on the dignity and/or life of the human person.

Again, fitswimmer, I apologize and beg your forgivness. Thank you for being pro-life.

 

[Fitswimmer]

You have pictures that scream?

When children have adverse reactions, it is because they cue on the actions of the adults with them. You get upset, the child gets upset.

Ok, let me explain more clearly. We were stuck in traffic alongside a protest. I’m assuming that there was a planned parenthood office near there or some other place where abortions were performed. There were a group of protesters holding up large posters with pictures of aborted fetuses and they were screaming at the people sitting in the traffic jam to get them to look at the signs.

I didn’t even see the signs at first, I was too focused on the traffic issue-but I could hear the yelling. I didn’t know what was being shown until I was asked why the lady was screaming. it was only then that I realized what they were waving at our car window. These people could clearly see that there was a child in the back of the car-but it didn’t matter to them. They were right, and they didn’t care how they projected their position.

And yes, I was upset about it-but I couldn’t show her that. I had to distract her attention by changing the music and starting a game with her to get her to look away.

If you really believe that showing those graphic photos to children is a part of the effort to get out the truth, then I feel sorry for the children that you will come in contact with.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And yes, I was upset about it-but I couldn’t show her that. I had to distract her attention by changing the music and starting a game with her to get her to look away.

If you had not shown her you were upset, she would not have been upset.

What’s wrong with you simply giving the protestors a thumbs-up sign and a smile?

If you really believe that showing those graphic photos to children is a part of the effort to get out the truth, then I feel sorry for the children that you will come in contact with.

And I feel sorry for the children who will be aborted, while people wring their hands and say, “Oh, don’t use those graphic images!”

 

[Fitswimmer]

If you had not shown her you were upset, she would not have been upset.

What’s wrong with you simply giving the protestors a thumbs-up sign and a smile?

And I feel sorry for the children who will be aborted, while people wring their hands and say, “Oh, don’t use those graphic images!”

You really think that waving those graphic pictures in front of children is ok?? It is that type of attitude that causes people to accuse pro lifer’s of being more concerned about the children before they are born than afterwards.

I will NEVER give a thumbs up to anyone who shoves bloody, graphic photos in the face of an innocent child. The fact that your cause is just does not give you license to do whatever you want to whoever you want.

AND-I told you that I could not show my distaste to the child-but I’m showing it to you now.

 

[MIZER]

Fitswimmer,

I’ve re-read this post from you and see that in my haste I thought you were acknowleging my work in a CPC not referring to your own.

From post 982:

I’ve never seen Jerry Springer and from what I’ve read about his show, it’s full of angry, rage filled people.

I’m very glad that you do not volunteer with the single mothers who come to our baby showers, drive them to pre-natal appointments or work with them to help them be able to choose to keep their babies or give them up for adoption. These are often vulnerable, frightened women who would not respond well to that kind of attack. If we came at them with that kind of anger, they would run to the open arms of Planned Parenthood. They long ago learned that showing themselves as “compassionate” and “concerned” brings more people to their side. That’s how they hide that what they’re doing is actually evil.

I long ago chose to do my pro-life work on the ground and stay away from the marches and legal fights.

It’s important for you to realize that the work on the ground is not limited to Crises pregnancy counseling and support but also to the valuable work done to actually change the hearts and minds of the people who identify themselves as being “pro-choice.” Most of these people will never step foot inside a CPC or PP and most will never be in a position to make the decision or personally know anyone, or know of anyone who has ever been faced with making the decision.

My work now has very little to do with changing the law and everything to do with changing minds and hearts.

I do thank you for volunteering your time to offer support for those who need it. I’m sure you are very good at what you do, being as kind hearted as you have shown yourself to be on this forum. We all have our gifts and I’m thankful you are using yours in this manner.

 

[MIZER]

Thank you for the support mapleoak.

This is a very good point to make:

On what basis do you make the determination that pregnant women are all frightened and vulnerable?

Many women, too many, use abortion as birth control. Many women, too many, use the generosity of CPC’s to get free stuff. I’ve seen it happen. You are right mapleoak, every pregnant women who seeks help is not frightened or vulnerable. Nor are they all young.

 

[allhers]

Those graphic, bloody photos only exist because some people believe its a right to choose to murder an innocent child.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Fitswimmer,

I’ve re-read this post from you and see that in my haste I thought you were acknowleging my work in a CPC not referring to your own.

It’s important for you to realize that the work on the ground is not limited to Crises pregnancy counseling and support but also to the valuable work done to actually change the hearts and minds of the people who identify themselves as being “pro-choice.” Most of these people will never step foot inside a CPC or PP and most will never be in a position to make the decision or personally know anyone, or know of anyone who has ever been faced with making the decision.

My work now has very little to do with changing the law and everything to do with changing minds and hearts.

I do thank you for volunteering your time to offer support for those who need it. I’m sure you are very good at what you do, being as kind hearted as you have shown yourself to be on this forum. We all have our gifts and I’m thankful you are using yours in this manner.

Thank you-and I do understand the passion that goes with this issue. There’s no way not to feel it when you know the truth. I do have concerns with some of the ways that passion is expressed however, and I think we need to constantly re-examine and re-evaluate how we make our case.

As for my godchild, she is now 21 and pro-life. She was raised that way, taught from the very beginning that ALL life is sacred. She’s against the death penalty, against euthanasia and against the Iraq war as well. I know she’s spoken to her friends about it, and she says many of them are pro-life as well. They are the first generation to really grow up under Roe, and I find it interesting that she and her friends are pro life. Some of them have turned their backs on religion, but they remain pro-life. Who would have thought that?

 

[MIZER]

They (Planned Parenthood) long ago learned that showing themselves as “compassionate” and “concerned” brings more people to their side. That’s how they hide that what they’re doing is actually evil.

I noticed this statement by fitswimmer again as quoted in mapleoak’s post 983.

Fitswimmer,

You have the wrong idea about Planned Parenthood and other abortion businesses and thier ability to “bring more people to thier side.” They do not do this through “compassion and concern.”

What is compassionate about rushing a woman into a decision she will most likely regret and suffer for, for the rest of her life?

What is their concern when they don’t inform women of the risk’s to their physical health, much less their mental health, before performing a proceedure that will leave a human being their own flesh and blood child, tortured to death?

No, I reject this premise of your argument that it would be better if we were just nice to the pro-aborts. The way PP and other pro-abort machines work in order to bring people to their side mirrors the one they work for. They use deception. They lie.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I noticed this statement by fitswimmer again as quoted in mapleoak’s post 983.

Fitswimmer,

You have the wrong idea about Planned Parenthood and other abortion businesses and thier ability to “bring more people to thier side.” They do not do this through “compassion and concern.”

What is compassionate about rushing a woman into a decision she will most likely regret and suffer for, for the rest of her life?

What is their concern when they don’t inform women of the risk’s to their physical health, much less their mental health, before performing a proceedure that will leave a human being their own flesh and blood child, tortured to death?

No, I reject this premise of your argument that it would be better if we were just nice to the pro-aborts. The way PP and other pro-abort machines work in order to bring people to their side mirrors the one they work for. They use deception. They lie.

I’m advocating being nice to those who are in the position of making a decision whether or not to abort their children.

The deception that the PP folks use is that fake compassion-they tell the women that they care about her, that they want to help her…and then they convince her that it is in her best interest to abort. I’ve heard the stories from too many women that have later changed their minds, or who have actually had abortions and have come back to Church for forgiveness when the inevitable grief hits.

 

[MIZER]

I did check out the website-for a VERY short time. While I understand the reality of those images, I do not feel the need to view them.

Fitswimmer, my dear pro-life friend,

I didn’t ask you to look at the images. I want you to read the quotes from people who would have identified themselves as "pro-choice’ before they saw the images. Go to the tags that take you to the GAP (Genocide Awarness Project) part of the website. Read what former pro-abort people have to say. Skip right past the images. I know it’s horrifying and something someone with your sensibility probably doesn’t want to see. You need to get to some of the written part of the web-site so that you may become a stronger advocate for the innocents who are being led to the slaughter. Pray for fortitude and go back to the web-site and educate yourself.

It might interest you to know that when the organization (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) was under construction, Father Frank Pavone was on the board of directors. He worked together with Greg Cunningham on many of the projects. I don’t know if he still is on the board, he may just be an advisor now, I don’t know. But it you look closely you will see great similarity between what you see on the “Priest’s for Life” web-site and the CBR web-site. Please go back…learn!

 

[MIZER]

Fitswimmer,

There is much I wish to say to you starting with post 986 but I don’t have anymore time right now. I hope you’ll keep reading and give me some time. Maybe we should start another thread as we have completely hyjacked this one. The suject would be the showing of the pictures. Your statement here is the crux of the matter:

to have those pictures out on the street,with no way for them to be avoided is irresponsible and dangerous.

The reason over a million babies die in this country every year is because the issue of abortion is avoidable. Most people, I would say 90% or more of the US population completely ignore it. It is shrowded in the word CHOICE. It is hidden behind words like SAFE, LEGAL and RARE. We have no choice ourselves, if we hope to turn this around, but to make abortion unavoidable.

Abortion is an evil of such great magnitude, it has to be seen to be understood. This is the phillosophy behind CBR.

I have 4 children myself and they were all little once and I’ve had the pictures where they might see them and it has never been a problem. No child in a car seat is going to be able to discern what he/she is seeing from that distance unless mommy points it out or makes a big stink about it herself. If a young child does see the pictures and asks about it you simply deal with it in an age appropriate way as you would anything they might see that you wish they hadn’t. You don’t dwell on it, you don’t freak out about the fact that they saw it and you divert their attention.

There is a good chance your child won’t know what he is looking at or be concerned about it. If he does and if he is, then the conversation might go:

The kid says, “Mommy, is that a baby?”

You say “yes, that’s a baby”.

The kid says, “Why does it look like that?”

You say, "Well it looks like that because some people think it’s ok to do bad things to a baby. But you don’t have to worry because those people will never be around you. Do you want to go to the park and swing when we get done at the grocery store?

Really, Fitswimmer, it can be managed. In the meantime, if the pictures are so horrible that we can not bring ourselves to look at them, why in the world are we passively tollerating the action that gives the photograph it’s content? Why are we allowing our nieghbors, our family, our friends to ignore it. Why are we helping to keep it hidden?

Please go back to the web-site and learn more about this war on the unborn. Don’t look at the pictures, find some type and read.

 

[MIZER]

I didn’t even see the signs at first, I was too focused on the traffic issue-but I could hear the yelling. I didn’t know what was being shown until I was asked why the lady was screaming. it was only then that I realized what they were waving at our car window. These people could clearly see that there was a child in the back of the car-but it didn’t matter to them. They were right, and they didn’t care how they projected their position.

And yes, I was upset about it-but I couldn’t show her that. I had to distract her attention by changing the music and starting a game with her to get her to look away.

If you really believe that showing those graphic photos to children is a part of the effort to get out the truth, then I feel sorry for the children that you will come in contact with.

I wish I had a megaphone for my next statement.

THIS IS NOT CBR and this is not what we do. Please, go to the web-site and learn about what I am talking about. Get past the video that pops up when you first open the site and click on one of tabs. START READING.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I wish I had a megaphone for my next statement.

THIS IS NOT CBR and this is not what we do. Please, go to the web-site and learn about what I am talking about. Get past the video that pops up when you first open the site and click on one of tabs. START READING.

Good, that’s all I needed to know.

 

[vz71]

No child in a car seat is going to be able to discern what he/she is seeing from that distance unless mommy points it out or makes a big stink about it herself. If a young child does see the pictures and asks about it you simply deal with it in an age appropriate way as you would anything they might see that you wish they hadn’t. You don’t dwell on it, you don’t freak out about the fact that they saw it and you divert their attention.
There is a good chance your child won’t know what he is looking at or be concerned about it. If he does and if he is, then the conversation might go:

The kid says, “Mommy, is that a baby?”

You say “yes, that’s a baby”.

The kid says, “Why does it look like that?”

You say, "Well it looks like that because some people think it’s ok to do bad things to a baby. But you don’t have to worry because those people will never be around you. Do you want to go to the park and swing when we get done at the grocery store?

I have kids that viewed pictures of this sort, and have nightmares about them. Do not ever make the mistake of thinking the child does not comprehend. They comprehend much more then any parent expects.

If scaring little children is the way some believe they can win over hearts and minds…well, brain damage is the first thought I have for that.

There is a time and place for graphic imagery.
In public, around the clock is not one of them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have kids that viewed pictures of this sort, and have nightmares about them. Do not ever make the mistake of thinking the child does not comprehend. They comprehend much more then any parent expects.

If scaring little children is the way some believe they can win over hearts and minds…well, brain damage is the first thought I have for that.

There is a time and place for graphic imagery.
In public, around the clock is not one of them.

What the child comprehends is the adult’s attitude and reaction.

Those same kids could walk through the butcher’s section of the local supermarket, and not be fazed by the bloody meat on display. They could watch Grandma chop the head off a chicken for dinner, or watch Daddy field dress a deer.

It’s the adult’s reaction that triggers the child’s problems.

 

[carjack]

Children should NOT be exposed to those pictures. It would be similar to them watching a horror film to early in their lives. The images are imprinted in their minds. Those pictures can traumatize the child. If anyone ever came up to my car with a pic. I would use my cell and report them for harassment.

 

[carjack]

What the child comprehends is the adult’s attitude and reaction.

Those same kids could walk through the butcher’s section of the local supermarket, and not be fazed by the bloody meat on display. They could watch Grandma chop the head off a chicken for dinner, or watch Daddy field dress a deer.

It’s the adult’s reaction that triggers the child’s problems.

Yes because children know the difference between dinner and a picture of a bloodied body. The pics are inappropriate for children.

 

[vz71]

What the child comprehends is the adult’s attitude and reaction.

Nope.
Wrong.

What the child comprehends may be based on the adult reaction.
In mine, it was based on a 5 and a 7 year old recognizing what they were looking at and not reacting for days.