Pro-Choice in Europe

[reggieM]

I don’t see Socialism as a relevant factor in this topic, myself. Europeans are free to resist immoral anti-life practices, but they often don’t. The same is very true in more capitalistic countries. We have a better pro-life movement in the U.S., but our laws are not much better than in Europe and, as mentioned, our birth-rate is declining (with the admirable exception of Mexican and South American immigrants).

It’s a moral/religious problem, not one of political structure, in my opinion.

 

[tomarin]

I don’t see Socialism as a relevant factor in this topic, myself. Europeans are free to resist immoral anti-life practices, but they often don’t. The same is very true in more capitalistic countries. We have a better pro-life movement in the U.S., but our laws are not much better than in Europe and, as mentioned, our birth-rate is declining (with the admirable exception of Mexican and South American immigrants).

It’s a moral/religious problem, not one of political structure, in my opinion.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Ouch!!!

Eh, whatever, I sure as heck wouldn’t want to live over there so her insult is meaningless.

 

[saveusfromhell]

i thought it was a no no to insult each other on this forum. time for people to grow up

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t see Socialism as a relevant factor in this topic, myself. Europeans are free to resist immoral anti-life practices, but they often don’t. The same is very true in more capitalistic countries. We have a better pro-life movement in the U.S., but our laws are not much better than in Europe and, as mentioned, our birth-rate is declining (with the admirable exception of Mexican and South American immigrants).

It’s a moral/religious problem, not one of political structure, in my opinion.

Our political structures mirror our morals and religious beliefs, so of course this is relevant. We are the people who make up the political structure - how can we separate out our morals and values? What we build up or tear down will reveal our morals.

 

[Kaninchen]

Eh, whatever, I sure as heck wouldn’t want to live over there so her insult is meaningless.

I can’t see where there was an insult involved, it was merely an observation.

 

[JimG]

It’s been my impression that abortion was generally more restricted in Europe than in the U.S. Roe v Wade generally allowed for abortion throughout all nine months of pregnancy, at least provided that one got two abortionists to concur on the matter for late term abortions.

In the UK, for example, I think that abortion was legalized up to 28 weeks, (in 1968), and that was reduced to 24 weeks in 1990. In the U.S., it took three tries even to prohibit partial birth abortion, where the baby is partially delivered before being killed.

 

[Kaninchen]

It’s been my impression that abortion was generally more restricted in Europe than in the U.S. Roe v Wade generally allowed for abortion throughout all nine months of pregnancy, at least provided that one got two abortionists to concur on the matter for late term abortions.

In the UK, for example, I think that abortion was legalized up to 28 weeks, (in 1968), and that was reduced to 24 weeks in 1990. In the U.S., it took three tries even to prohibit partial birth abortion, where the baby is partially delivered before being killed.

Yes, here’s a run-down of the situation in Europe, though the page is 2007.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Our political structures mirror our morals and religious beliefs, so of course this is relevant. We are the people who make up the political structure - how can we separate out our morals and values? What we build up or tear down will reveal our morals.

True indeed.

 

[Santi2]

It’s not the first time, ‘Rescue America’ tried it in the early 90’s in London.

Thanks for the reminder. I forgot about that group.

 

[vera_dicere]

I’m in New Zealand and from my perspective its not really an issue people on either side want to drag into Parliament. Recently some extremist pro-abort politicna want abortion decrminilsed up to 24 weeks - and even other pro-abortion advocates were horrified!

The reality is if abortion were ever made legal, women would have to pay for it out of their own pocket, so currently the govt. picks up the tab for the 18,000+ precious lives that are slaughtered each year in our hospitals.

NZLers are a very “MYOB” kind of people, and there’s actually a very strong secularism and almost passive pro-abortionism.

We have an active Pro-Life movement, but their actions are often behind the scenes with crisis pregnancy centres as opposed to some political juggernaught.

Its just something down here people don’t fuss about politically. Even my Catholic friends and family think I’m silly for voting purely for pro-life candiates and not even considering anyone who’s pro-abortion.

Mind you, our official pro-abortion groups are tiny and barely register.

As for our “christian parties” we haven’t had one in years, and the last one we had, well, the leader of that party got in trouble for molesting children, and quite viciously I might add, last I heard he’s doing time. Our Christian parties are often associated with very extreme, right wing fundamentalism, think Baptist, anti-catholic type thing. And given that only about 30% of NZLers adhere to a Christian faith, such parties do not go down well. We had a party with “christian values” recently, but it’s leader has now sold out to the liberal mindset.

Abortion is, as a few have said about their own countries, a religious issue. A lot of people here who support euthanasia and aboriton are really quite ignorant of the facts, and when it comes to politics we’re an apathetic bunch us Kiwis. Its actually quite irritating for me because i love a good political chin wag and its like having a battle of wits with an unarmed person, sometimes.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Our political structures mirror our morals and religious beliefs, so of course this is relevant. We are the people who make up the political structure - how can we separate out our morals and values? What we build up or tear down will reveal our morals.

You missed the point they were trying to make. The abortion laws over in the US are probably worse than they are over here (any time during the pregnancy in the US, no abortions allowed after 24 weeks unless there’s a risk to health etc etc in the UK) and our birth rates are the same, so what’s your point about political structure having any influence on abortion?

Not only that, but you’re starting from the assumption that my political morals and opinions will mimic those of the majority in my country, or those of the government. Do yours?

Edit: By the way, are you referring to me as insulting you?

 

[Kaninchen]

Edit: By the way, are you referring to me as insulting you?

It was my observation about the immigration rules.

 

[beafedor]

I’m sure many people posting in these forums live in the USA. However, I know there are some people posting here who live in other countries.

Every year at election, people in the USA argue about voting for a “pro-choice” person versus a “pro-life” person.

What I would like to know is, do these issues exist in other places such as Europe and Australia? When a candidate is running for office, do they argue about whether the candidate is “pro-choice” or “pro-life?”

Come to think of it, I have heard plenty of conservative Catholics here in the USA state that “pro-choice” politicians shouldn’t be considered Catholic and shouldn’t receive Communion. However, I have never heard of an instance where the Pope refused to give communion to a “pro-choice” Italian official.

Does this issue exist only in the USA, or is it all over the world? I am hoping that posters from other countries will be able to answer this.

In the meantime, I can’t wait until the election is over (no more degrading political commercials to listen to)!

As far as France, my beloved country: if you oppose abortion you are a dangerous religious freak and a right wing extremist somehow associated with the Nazis. So it is not an issue for voters and politicians don’t mention it in their campaigns. What is important to most people is the control of immigration, as well as working less and earning more money.

Few french people realize that abortion is legal in France throughout the 9 months of pregnancy under the disguise of “medical interruption of pregnancy” when the pregnancy is a threat to the mother’s life or if the child has a genetic disorder. Political pro-abortion groups have quietly met the law makers ten years ago to lift parental notifications, physicians clause of conscience… Please pray for my country.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You missed the point they were trying to make. The abortion laws over in the US are probably worse than they are over here (any time during the pregnancy in the US, no abortions allowed after 24 weeks unless there’s a risk to health etc etc in the UK) and our birth rates are the same, so what’s your point about political structure having any influence on abortion?

Not only that, but you’re starting from the assumption that my political morals and opinions will mimic those of the majority in my country, or those of the government. Do yours?

Edit: By the way, are you referring to me as insulting you?

What? I was assuming no such thing. My post was very general. Politics always reflects the morals and beliefs of the citizens of a country, ALL the citizens, whether in the majority or minority. What we support politically is what we believe is important in our lives, even critical in our lives. I was responding to the post that said politics isn’t important to this discussion.

No, the response was to another poster who reacted with dismay to a comment made to me. I was not addressing either you or the poster who commented to me.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

As far as France, my beloved country: if you oppose abortion you are a dangerous religious freak and a right wing extremist somehow associated with the Nazis. So it is not an issue for voters and politicians don’t mention it in their campaigns. What is important to most people is the control of immigration, as well as working less and earning more money.

Few french people realize that abortion is legal in France throughout the 9 months of pregnancy under the disguise of “medical interruption of pregnancy” when the pregnancy is a threat to the mother’s life or if the child has a genetic disorder. Political pro-abortion groups have quietly met the law makers ten years ago to lift parental notifications, physicians clause of conscience… Please pray for my country.

I will definitely keep you in my prayers. I am so sorry. A country that has been historically Catholic has descended that far.

Working less and earning more money…that’s just not going to fix things any longer, is it?

 

[Aboveallbereal]

I’m sure many people posting in these forums live in the USA. However, I know there are some people posting here who live in other countries.

Every year at election, people in the USA argue about voting for a “pro-choice” person versus a “pro-life” person.

What I would like to know is, do these issues exist in other places such as Europe and Australia? When a candidate is running for office, do they argue about whether the candidate is “pro-choice” or “pro-life?”

Come to think of it, I have heard plenty of conservative Catholics here in the USA state that “pro-choice” politicians shouldn’t be considered Catholic and shouldn’t receive Communion. However, I have never heard of an instance where the Pope refused to give communion to a “pro-choice” Italian official.

Does this issue exist only in the USA, or is it all over the world? I am hoping that posters from other countries will be able to answer this.

In the meantime, I can’t wait until the election is over (no more degrading political commercials to listen to)!

I live in Ireland where Upwards of 40 to 50% of the people are still churchgoing and perhaps 25% ( my guess I admit ) of those of childbearing age would be catholic in something more than name so pro life which as has constitutional support still a large though declining support in the culture. I suspect the pro Choice agenda won’t be normalised for perhaps 20 years but it will happen as older cathoics die off and Ireland approximates to normal european patterns as is happening rapidly as among those under 50 religious practise is now very much a minority thing.

In Europe generally Christianity is in reality very much a minority interest and the pro choice position as a norm is either an established reality as in France/UK/Netherlands/Scandinavia and other Post Christian humanist cultures or becoming so as in Spain/Portugal and other recently Christian but fast secularising societies where it is still a generation of so from being normalised completely but is a quasi inevitability with the youth rejecting the Church is droves as their cultures come into step with cross continent post christian norms. As Beafador has said is such societies anyone under 50 opposing abortion is regarded as an extreme right wing nutter and abortion is simply invisible as an issue for grown ups who seek election.

The pro life position is widely seen as exclusively Christian and thus suffers from the widespread Christophobia which marks the european chattering classes. De facto abortion on demand is now the usual thing and will be univerals in Europe within 15 to 20 years as the Church retreats from view.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I live in Ireland where Upwards of 40 to 50% of the people are still churchgoing and perhaps 25% ( my guess I admit ) of those of childbearing age would be catholic in something more than name so pro life which as has constitutional support still a large though declining support in the culture. I suspect the pro Choice agenda won’t be normalised for perhaps 20 years but it will happen as older cathoics die off and Ireland approximates to normal european patterns as is happening rapidly as among those under 50 religious practise is now very much a minority thing.

In Europe generally Christianity is in reality very much a minority interest and the pro choice position as a norm is either an established reality as in France/UK/Netherlands/Scandinavia and other Post Christian humanist cultures or becoming so as in Spain/Portugal and other recently Christian but fast secularising societies where it is still a generation of so from being normalised completely but is a quasi inevitability with the youth rejecting the Church is droves as their cultures come into step with cross continent post christian norms. As Beafador has said is such societies anyone under 50 opposing abortion is regarded as an extreme right wing nutter and abortion is simply invisible as an issue for grown ups who seek election.

The pro life position is widely seen as exclusively Christian and thus suffers from the widespread Christophobia which marks the european chattering classes. De facto abortion on demand is now the usual thing and will be univerals in Europe within 15 to 20 years as the Church retreats from view.

All very true. I have seen this over and over again. If you even bring up the subject in Europe they all look at you as though you were a complete neanderthal, or sub-human. Europeans are not reproducing thanks to contraception and then also killing some of the babies that are created. Not a great forecast for Europe.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I live in Ireland where Upwards of 40 to 50% of the people are still churchgoing and perhaps 25% ( my guess I admit ) of those of childbearing age would be catholic in something more than name so pro life which as has constitutional support still a large though declining support in the culture. I suspect the pro Choice agenda won’t be normalised for perhaps 20 years but it will happen as older cathoics die off and Ireland approximates to normal european patterns as is happening rapidly as among those under 50 religious practise is now very much a minority thing.

In Europe generally Christianity is in reality very much a minority interest and the pro choice position as a norm is either an established reality as in France/UK/Netherlands/Scandinavia and other Post Christian humanist cultures or becoming so as in Spain/Portugal and other recently Christian but fast secularising societies where it is still a generation of so from being normalised completely but is a quasi inevitability with the youth rejecting the Church is droves as their cultures come into step with cross continent post christian norms. As Beafador has said is such societies anyone under 50 opposing abortion is regarded as an extreme right wing nutter and abortion is simply invisible as an issue for grown ups who seek election.

The pro life position is widely seen as exclusively Christian and thus suffers from the widespread Christophobia which marks the european chattering classes. De facto abortion on demand is now the usual thing and will be univerals in Europe within 15 to 20 years as the Church retreats from view.

Sad. Well, that’s the Secularist Monster for you.

 

[LemonAndLime]

All very true. I have seen this over and over again. If you even bring up the subject in Europe they all look at you as though you were a complete neanderthal, or sub-human. Europeans are not reproducing thanks to contraception and then also killing some of the babies that are created. Not a great forecast for Europe.

For about the third time, your birth rate is the same as ours. What’s your point again about us not reproducing?