Pro-Choice in Europe

[Listener]

I wasn’t trying to start an argument over the birth rate in the USA as compared to the birth rate in Europe and other places such as Australia/New Zealand.

It was interesting to see all of the information about abortion laws. I did not realize that the USA had less restrictive abortion laws than other countries.

So far no one has said anything about whether there are priests or bishops in other countries who tell people how sinful it is to vote for a pro-choice candidate. It sounds like it is swept under the rug.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

All very true. I have seen this over and over again. If you even bring up the subject in Europe they all look at you as though you were a complete neanderthal, or sub-human. Europeans are not reproducing thanks to contraception and then also killing some of the babies that are created. Not a great forecast for Europe.

It’s very under the radar in Europe Juliane. You have to remember that whereas up to 45% of Americans may be Christian it is unlikely that the figure in Western Europe is higher than 20% and that is high estimate. ( Clearly I am not including nominally Christian agnostics who for cultural reasons use the church for hatch match and dispatch ceremeonies but nothing else ). Christians are a small minority in most areas and mostly just keep their heads down being private Christians. Do you realise for instance that now only 15% of English children are baptised into the Church of England compared to 30% only 20 years ago and 70% in the inter war years!!! Even the basic formal family celebration links are gone for the vast majority as christianity becomes a fading cultural memory.

It is against that backdrop you must understand european christians relative failure in influence debate though in the English Conservative Party and other right of centre groups there are some willing to try to limit abortion even if few if any argue for stopping it.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

It’s very under the radar in Europe Juliane. You have to remember that whereas up to 45% of Americans may be Christian it is unlikely that the figure in Western Europe is higher than 20% and that is high estimate. ( Clearly I am not including nominally Christian agnostics who for cultural reasons use the church for hatch match and dispatch ceremeonies but nothing else ). Christians are a small minority in most areas and mostly just keep their heads down being private Christians. Do you realise for instance that now only 15% of English children are baptised into the Church of England compared to 30% only 20 years ago and 70% in the inter war years!!! Even the basic formal family celebration links are gone for the vast majority as christianity becomes a fading cultural memory.

It is against that backdrop you must understand european christians relative failure in influence debate though in the English Conservative Party and other right of centre groups there are some willing to try to limit abortion even if few if any argue for stopping it.

And the fact that England has already basically disenfranchised and co-opted Christianity in favor of Disgusting Secularism IS a tragedy.

Wonder what Secular England’s reaction will be when Our savior Finally Comes Back. I suspect there will be mass baptisms in the Chuches and in the Thames that will astound the world.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

And the fact that England has already basically disenfranchised and co-opted Christianity in favor of Disgusting Secularism IS a tragedy.

Wonder what Secular England’s reaction will be when Our savior Finally Comes Back. I suspect there will be mass baptisms in the Chuches and in the Thames that will astound the world.

Crisis will impact on them but as it is it is simply impossible to move public opinion if they think one is coming from a religious viewpoint. The French and Dutch are similar and Scandinavia is effectively lost. It’s not only the English.

 

[Holly3278]

I’m sure many people posting in these forums live in the USA. However, I know there are some people posting here who live in other countries.

Every year at election, people in the USA argue about voting for a “pro-choice” person versus a “pro-life” person.

What I would like to know is, do these issues exist in other places such as Europe and Australia? When a candidate is running for office, do they argue about whether the candidate is “pro-choice” or “pro-life?”

Come to think of it, I have heard plenty of conservative Catholics here in the USA state that “pro-choice” politicians shouldn’t be considered Catholic and shouldn’t receive Communion. However, I have never heard of an instance where the Pope refused to give communion to a “pro-choice” Italian official.

Does this issue exist only in the USA, or is it all over the world? I am hoping that posters from other countries will be able to answer this.

In the meantime, I can’t wait until the election is over (no more degrading political commercials to listen to)!

I am not sure of this but I have heard that the “right to choose” is a non-issue in some of the more liberal European countries. I find this to be downright sad to be quite frank!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

For about the third time, your birth rate is the same as ours. What’s your point again about us not reproducing?

You are right, no one is reproducing at sufficient numbers to sustain their civilization. And I was not talking to you, but to the poster from France. You are defensive about your country, which is understandable.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It’s very under the radar in Europe Juliane. You have to remember that whereas up to 45% of Americans may be Christian it is unlikely that the figure in Western Europe is higher than 20% and that is high estimate. ( Clearly I am not including nominally Christian agnostics who for cultural reasons use the church for hatch match and dispatch ceremeonies but nothing else ). Christians are a small minority in most areas and mostly just keep their heads down being private Christians. Do you realise for instance that now only 15% of English children are baptised into the Church of England compared to 30% only 20 years ago and 70% in the inter war years!!! Even the basic formal family celebration links are gone for the vast majority as christianity becomes a fading cultural memory.

It is against that backdrop you must understand european christians relative failure in influence debate though in the English Conservative Party and other right of centre groups there are some willing to try to limit abortion even if few if any argue for stopping it.

But Islam is gaining ground all the time.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

But Islam is gaining ground all the time.

Ifop polling agency polled 29,000 Frenchmen in 2006 and found that 5% attend mass weekly. I’ll repeat that…5%!!!

The Muslim population is now estimated at c.6,000,000 or 9-10% of the population. France has more practising muslims than practising Catholics. In England where weekly all denomination Christian observance is certainly no greater than 4,000,000 or c.7% of the population the number of muslims and hindus combined is probably similar. I have no figures for Holland but anecdotal evidence is that Christian observance there is now at Scandinavian or French levels below, significantly below 10% weekly. Holland has more muslims than practising Christians.

The fact is that the deChristianisation of much of western Europe is not so much in progress as an accomplished reality. I teach language. In a class of 12 18 year olds from once Catholic Austria I recently encountered genuine puzzlement that anyone of their number should think of attending mass…none did needless to say and none of their parents did either. In discussion nice bright well educated 18 year olds regarded mass going with bemused indifference.

This is the European reality. There is a vibrant Catholic community in most places but such communities are aware that they are now counter cultural, distrusted nd not allowed a voice is policy formulation.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Crisis will impact on them but as it is it is simply impossible to move public opinion if they think one is coming from a religious viewpoint. The French and Dutch are similar and Scandinavia is effectively lost. It’s not only the English.

I guess it all comes down to the materialistic viewpoint-----“If I can’t see or hear it, it does not exist—or even if I DO see it and hear it, it does not exist because Religion is wrong.”

Very, very Sad. And tragic.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Ifop polling agency polled 29,000 Frenchmen in 2006 and found that 5% attend mass weekly. I’ll repeat that…5%!!!

The Muslim population is now estimated at c.6,000,000 or 9-10% of the population. France has more practising muslims than practising Catholics. In England where weekly all denomination Christian observance is certainly no greater than 4,000,000 or c.7% of the population the number of muslims and hindus combined is probably similar. I have no figures for Holland but anecdotal evidence is that Christian observance there is now at Scandinavian or French levels below, significantly below 10% weekly. Holland has more muslims than practising Christians.

The fact is that the deChristianisation of much of western Europe is not so much in progress as an accomplished reality. I teach language. In a class of 12 18 year olds from once Catholic Austria I recently encountered genuine puzzlement that anyone of their number should think of attending mass…none did needless to say and none of their parents did either. In discussion nice bright well educated 18 year olds regarded mass going with bemused indifference.

This is the European reality. There is a vibrant Catholic community in most places but such communities are aware that they are now counter cultural, distrusted nd not allowed a voice is policy formulation.

That is why I get really ticked when some Europhile goes on about the “Superiority” of European Culture over American Culture. Many of these Europhiles also happen to consider themselves “Christian.” Oy Vey.

 

[Kaninchen]

That is why I get really ticked when some Europhile goes on about the “Superiority” of European Culture over American Culture. Many of these Europhiles also happen to consider themselves “Christian.” Oy Vey.

Especially given the fact that Americans never talk about the superiority of America in any way.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Especially given the fact that Americans never talk about the superiority of America in any way.

Not directly, but you do. I have been told that the American democratic system is “better” than in Europe, that Europe is socialist whereas America is not (and socialism is viewed as bad thus making America sound better). Been told that the American healthcare system is better, and in this thread it has certainly been implied that Europeans have a rough deal. I have also been told on this forum by several people that as a European I do not have freedom of speech (which is ridiculous) but the American system is better because they have “full freedom” of speech (which is debatable), and I when I defended my country’s system I was told “spoken like a true person who has never known true freedom”.

So no, you are incorrect. Americans are always going on about how superior their country and system are over others. The only time that I have seen Europeans even hint that their system is better on this forum is when under attack by Americans.

 

[Kaninchen]

Not directly, but you do.

My location (top right of this post) says: ‘European, very’ (half Italian/half German, living in the UK). I do admit to having lived in the US, though.

I have been told that the American democratic system is “better” than in Europe, that Europe is socialist whereas America is not (and socialism is viewed as bad thus making America sound better). Been told that the American healthcare system is better, and in this thread it has certainly been implied that Europeans have a rough deal. I have also been told on this forum by several people that as a European I do not have freedom of speech (which is ridiculous) but the American system is better because they have “full freedom” of speech (which is debatable), and I when I defended my country’s system I was told “spoken like a true person who has never known true freedom”.

I’m a lifelong Tory and, after nearly 4 years, I’m getting used to being a Liberal/Marxist Revolutionary (in comparison anyway).

So no, you are incorrect. Americans are always going on about how superior their country and system are over others. The only time that I have seen Europeans even hint that their system is better on this forum is when under attack by Americans.

I was being rather tongue-in-cheek.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Especially given the fact that Americans never talk about the superiority of America in any way.

Yes, Americans ARE guilty soemtimes lof the same thing, I’ll admit. Two wrongs don’t make a right, though.

And some of those comments (some, not all, admittedly) tend to lean more in the lean more in the direction of America being diefferent in a Good Way from the rest of the world. Let’s face it, Americans tend to look at things differently than the rest of the world.
You may agree or disagree with American viewpoints, but on ehas to admit that America IS Special from the rest of the world in many ways.
If that makes me an “exceptionalist,” then I plead guilty.

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes, Americans ARE guilty soemtimes lof the same thing, I’ll admit. Two wrongs don’t make a right, though.

And some of those comments (some, not all, admittedly) tend to lean more in the lean more in the direction of America being diefferent in a Good Way from the rest of the world. Let’s face it, Americans tend to look at things differently than the rest of the world.
You may agree or disagree with American viewpoints, but on ehas to admit that America IS Special from the rest of the world in many ways.
If that makes me an “exceptionalist,” then I plead guilty.

I plead guilty to wryly smiling from time to time.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

Any argument about whether America or europe is “superior” is utterly redundant.

America has better basketball teams. Europe has better soccer teams. So what? It really is the most futile argument.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

What makes things difficult is that the internet has expanded our ability to talk to people all over the world, and of course everyone believes his or her own country to be the best! Well, except for our current president, that is. He keeps apologizing for what we are, much to the dismay and disgust of many of his subjects…erm…fellow citizens…

Our situation here in the US is very different from (or different to) yours in Europe in general, and different from each country within the EU in particular. We have a completely different history, a much different national character, and very different institutions. So your viewpoints do not apply to us and vice versa. It may sound as if we are trying to come off as superior, but what we are doing is proclaiming that we are NOT you, and that we have a right to have our own way of doing things.

For decades now, there is a subset of our society that has idolized all things European, trying to force your institutions and values upon us, maybe in a similar way that we have tried to bring our form of democracy to other nations around the world. Many of us get our fur up on end when we are told that the European way is the best way for us. Our ancestors left Europe and set out for a new land, so they could forge their own path and worship in the way that was meaningful to them. That individualism and pioneer spirit is still here, since we are such a young country compared with you in Europe.

Hey, if we tried to impose our values and institutions on you, you’d probably get your back up as well! What if a group of Brits were constantly going on and on about American football, putting down your football and saying you should change to pointy-ended football, that it really is MUCH more of an enlightened and civilized sport? I’m sure you’d resist that, simply because you have your own sport and ours doesn’t translate very well across the pond!

Yes, we’re brash, bold, over-friendly, confident, and too cheerful in general. We’ve given you the worst of what we have to offer (McDonald’s) but also shared some of what has worked so well for us (entrepreneurism). Can’t we all just get along?

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

What makes things difficult is that the internet has expanded our ability to talk to people all over the world, and of course everyone believes his or her own country to be the best! Well, except for our current president, that is. He keeps apologizing for what we are, much to the dismay and disgust of many of his subjects…erm…fellow citizens…

Our situation here in the US is very different from (or different to) yours in Europe in general, and different from each country within the EU in particular. We have a completely different history, a much different national character, and very different institutions. So your viewpoints do not apply to us and vice versa. It may sound as if we are trying to come off as superior, but what we are doing is proclaiming that we are NOT you, and that we have a right to have our own way of doing things.

For decades now, there is a subset of our society that has idolized all things European, trying to force your institutions and values upon us, maybe in a similar way that we have tried to bring our form of democracy to other nations around the world. Many of us get our fur up on end when we are told that the European way is the best way for us. Our ancestors left Europe and set out for a new land, so they could forge their own path and worship in the way that was meaningful to them. That individualism and pioneer spirit is still here, since we are such a young country compared with you in Europe.

Hey, if we tried to impose our values and institutions on you, you’d probably get your back up as well! What if a group of Brits were constantly going on and on about American football, putting down your football and saying you should change to pointy-ended football, that it really is MUCH more of an enlightened and civilized sport? I’m sure you’d resist that, simply because you have your own sport and ours doesn’t translate very well across the pond!

Yes, we’re brash, bold, over-friendly, confident, and too cheerful in general. We’ve given you the worst of what we have to offer (McDonald’s) but also shared some of what has worked so well for us (entrepreneurism). Can’t we all just get along?

Excellent. Could not have said it better myself.

 

[Black_Rose]

For decades now, there is a subset of our society that has idolized all things European, trying to force your institutions and values upon us, maybe in a similar way that we have tried to bring our form of democracy to other nations around the world. Many of us get our fur up on end when we are told that the European way is the best way for us. Our ancestors left Europe and set out for a new land, so they could forge their own path and worship in the way that was meaningful to them. That individualism and pioneer spirit is still here, since we are such a young country compared with you in Europe.

Hey, if we tried to impose our values and institutions on you, you’d probably get your back up as well! What if a group of Brits were constantly going on and on about American football, putting down your football and saying you should change to pointy-ended football, that it really is MUCH more of an enlightened and civilized sport? I’m sure you’d resist that, simply because you have your own sport and ours doesn’t translate very well across the pond!

Yes, we’re brash, bold, over-friendly, confident, and too cheerful in general. We’ve given you the worst of what we have to offer (McDonald’s) but also shared some of what has worked so well for us (entrepreneurism). Can’t we all just get along?

I like everything about Europe except the lack of baseball.

Europeans will respect the uncivilized American barbarians as long their influence does not encroach upon the civilized politics of Europe, but they cannot “just get along” especially when the barbaric culture of American individualism is the antithesis of European community and solidarity embodied in the welfare state which is the hallmark of a highly civilized society in modernity. The Europeans correctly loathe the aggressively imperialist stance of the United States which primarily serves to aggressively promote neoliberalism (after the collapse of world communism) and pro-Zionist foreign policy. Europeans merited a right to a sense of condensing collective superiority over the Americans.

See my link: “Abduction of Modernity” for more…

Returning to the actual topic:

I do not fervently oppose abortion in the public sphere because it is possible for me to envision a just society that tolerates abortion, but I do not see how a modern society can be deemed “civilized” if its institutions neglected and flagrantly ignored the material needs of the unfortunate even if its laws are fervently pro-life. I would have a greater feeling of collective pride living in a society with low prevalence of poverty, high economic equality, and a sense of egalitarian unity among its citizens while its legal system accepts the decision of some pregnant women to terminate their pregnancies than a living in a society where abortion is prohibited but for a significant proportion of the population poverty and its associated despair are feature of their existence.

 

[Kaninchen]

What if a group of Brits were constantly going on and on about American football, putting down your football and saying you should change to pointy-ended football, that it really is MUCH more of an enlightened and civilized sport?

Actually, the English invented pointy-ended football - it’s named after the School that invented it, ‘Rugby’, and is very popular in quite a number of countries worldwide - the USA, apparently, ranks 15th in the world.

Of course, people get tired of being told that their country should be ‘more like’ another country - Europeans are quite used to being told by other Europeans that we should be more like the USA in various ways, though that’s much less true now than when I was a teen in the 1980’s, when the US was seen as a symbol of dynamic and inventive capitalism. Now, I think Europeans realize that we’re really quite good at all sorts of stuff, too and the US isn’t and wasn’t quite what it appeared to be - after all, it’s continental in size and variation.

All countries like to think they’re special in some way but I think that many Americans don’t quite appreciate how uncomfortable very many Europeans feel about high levels of expression of that - it was high levels of ‘specialness’ and ‘Idealism’ that brought catastrophe after catastrophe to Europe in the first half of the last century. So, European countries like to feel that they’re special but, generally, don’t like to be too loud about it - unless it’s football.