Pro-choice saints?

[m_sr_a]

Mary:dancing:

 

[Arrowood]

St. Thomas Aquinas would never deny the child’s right to life. He would never go against the teaching of the early Church on abortion, which is available on the library of this website. He was simply trying to define at what age in the development of a child, does the murder thereof become most deserving of legal repercussion.

Exactly! St. Thomas’ conjecture was at what point the unborn baby was endowed with the rational soul. The theory of the time was that development occurred through the stages from vegetative soul to sensitive soul (animal) to rational soul (human). However, St Thomas’ understanding was also that a being is defined teleologically - by its end or purpose. No matter what stage of development an unborn baby had reached, it was human because its purpose and end was to know God, to love Him and to serve Him. On a natural level, he might say that the end/purpose of an unborn baby is to be human, therefore an unborn baby is human.

St. Thomas’ definitions are the very basis for the Church’s teachings against abortion, embryonic stem cell research, cloning, etc. Modern science lends further evidence and clarification that adds to this foundation.

 

[Arrowood]

Hear from whom? Anyone whose words matter on the topic? Perhaps time would be better spent praying for her rather than bad-mouthing her?

And remember: If Dorothy Day is in Heaven or in Purgatory, then she’s a saint.

– Mark L. Chance.

Point well taken, Mark, but Geremia still has a point as well. While Dorothy Day may very well be a saint in heaven, her abortion may have been an impediment to her cause for canonization. Of course, canonization is only our earthly assurance that someone is in heaven. Lack of canonization does not mean that Dorothy Day is not a saint.

I’m not sure about your statement that members of the Church Suffering (in Purgatory) are saints. They are certainly assured of sainthood, but they have not yet achieved it. I may be wrong about the Church’s definition, though. I’ll have to look it up . . .

 

[Arrowood]

Let’s not forget a few things: 1). Most common cause of abortion, or so it’s reported, is economic insecurity. Democrats spend more on social programs that work;

I have heard this argument many times during this election cycle. I have yet to see numbers that actually prove the claim to be true. In fact, it seems to me (without numbers to actually prove the claim to be true ) that most abortions are performed on middle class women who are using abortion as a backup to failed birth control. I’d like to see actual statistics to prove which viewpoint is true. It’s not enough just to say that abortions were up or down during so-and-so’s presidency, since the effects of social action (as well as economic action) often take years to show up. This makes knowing for sure pretty difficult

Either way, there is a fundamental error in the claim that voting for a pro-choice Democrat candidate is more pro-life because of the party’s social programs. Voting for a pro-choice candidate supports the claim that abortion is a valid solution to social problems. That is not a statement that a Catholic in good conscience can make.

 

[NuCatholic73]

We believe as Catholics that killing at any stage of life is wrong. However, Pope John Paul VI and the Borgia family did indeed murder those that stood in their way. He is not a Pope we admire, but a man that warns us of the corruption of power that can happen within the Church…we all have a duty to check ourselves.

Pope John Paul VI and the Borgia are also the reason Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church in 1617?..a monk that had forewarned of this splintering was hung + burned alive when he warned the Pope about his sins destroying Christ’s Church. Bishops fought against the Pope’s ambitions, but in the end it could not be stopped after the Pope’s death…from possible poisoning or malaria.

The Romans were pro-choice. hundreds of baby skeletons were recently found piled up in a sewer under the remains of a brothel. They were both sexes and all within a week old. The Romans also believed in birth control and used herbs or extracts to promote miscarriage of a pregnancy throughout the gestation period. In fact several of the Roman Caeser’s killed their own children to protect their power and position.

Christians and Jews found all of this evil and laid down their lives speaking out against it.

 

[NuCatholic73]

RotLex,
I, too, am amazed at how people can see a human life in a science book fully formed with head, eyes, torso, arms, and legs by 6 weeks gestation and still say it is not human or alive. By scientific standards it is alive, but unable to live outside of the mother…some say this is true of cancer, but cancer will grow in a dish outside of the human body and a baby ceases to be a baby.

The only time I think it is a ‘choice’ is if the mother’s life is in danger. I think this is a very serious and individual decision. My own step-sister chose to keep her baby after being informed she would die of cancer within 2 weeks. Her answer was, “Why should I kill the baby first when we will both die anyway.”

In my own circumstances I terminated my second pregnancy. As a Catholic I struggled with this decision because we wanted the baby very much. At the least, I would have lost my uterus and at the worst, my life. Science provided us with the information that this baby was indeed suffering and would never be able to live outside of my body. With science I had to choose between suicide or murder and both are mortal sins…many women are not making such heartwrenching choices when they have an abortion. Most abortions are done out of fear and not because of a basic need to survive.

Sin is a choice, but we do not ask people to martyr themselves just for the sake of being martyrs. God does not ask what we are unable to give. Many pro-choicers do not even realize that the laws they want will allow a way out for sexual predators, a reduction in minority votes (since THEY are the most likely to have abortions), and an increase in backdoor abortions…just in a medical office, but not by a Dr. I am sad for these women…at least I gave my baby’s life the the consideration it deserved…worth my own life if my clergy had told me that was necessary!

I am blessed the Church did not ask for my life and have as per my own penance dedicated myself to raising my children within the Catholic Church. God has indeed blessed me with faith in the Church. The Church protects women more than most realize.

 

[Corki]

Pope John Paul VI

 

[m_sr_a]

Mary:dancing:

… becaus she chose Jesus, the only good connotation with Choice, her saying “be it done unto Thy Will” oh Lord!

 

[NuCatholic73]

We learn so much from even the bad ones If that is not the right Pope then go by the name Borgia…and I hope the wronged Pope forgives my faux pas!

I was just talking to a friend and it occurred to me that if BO ends the war and makes the death penalty obsolete, then we can really unite our voices against this single cause and hopefully be heard. I am always looking for that half full perspective and I hope we will all write our Representatives in Congress and the House.

God needs us to speak up more than ever. I don’t think there was a perfect candidate or a perfect solution to this election. It was the toughest vote. I am glad that as a state we stayed strong in our convictions and chose to go with the candidate that would protect the most innocent of us. It also gives me hope that although the electoral was a ‘landslide’, the popular vote was very close.

Number three in God’s army is kicking me. She has to wait until June before I am finished baking her…lol!

 

[Arrowood]

RotLex,
In my own circumstances I terminated my second pregnancy. As a Catholic I struggled with this decision because we wanted the baby very much. At the least, I would have lost my uterus and at the worst, my life. Science provided us with the information that this baby was indeed suffering and would never be able to live outside of my body. With science I had to choose between suicide or murder and both are mortal sins…many women are not making such heartwrenching choices when they have an abortion. Most abortions are done out of fear and not because of a basic need to survive.

Let me first say that I am so sorry for your loss. What a horrible position to be in and a terrible choice to have to make.

A friend of mine who is a Catholic OB-GYN doc often complains that the “mother’s life or baby’s life” alarm is too often rung because an abortion is considered an easy way to avoid possible complications. Also, many doctors do not value a child’s life in the womb. When it is determined that a baby will not live after childbirth, their attitude is, “Might as well end the pregnancy.” But that child has a life in the womb and that life has a purpose. The first call should be to try to save both lives.

That said, there are some situations that are extremely difficult (your sounds like one of those). When I teach about tough medical ethics, one of my mottos is, “If we would get the easy stuff right, we could be forgiven for struggling with the difficult choices.”

 

[NuCatholic73]

I completely agree with you that many women, young and old, abuse the system. Many women cry rape, yet do not wish to press charges and claim the rapist IS a friend, but just want the morning after pill. My own OB struggles with this daily and I believe it is why we have such a shortage in our country of good OB’s. You cannot show a person life every day and then tell them it is not life.

The only way I could be misconstrued as being pro-choice is in the circumstances I, myself, have been through. And that, for me, is still pro-life…

I wrote my first letter to one of our Congressmen in hopes FOCA and ‘Prevention First’ will not pass. I urge everyone on this forum to do the same and to keep praying…even when it feels it is getting nowhere…we know it is going somewhere.

www.capwiz.com/fof/home/
Just enter your zip code and it will bring up the Representatives for your State and area.

 

[Antonio_Sosa]

George Soros, an enemy of Catholics and Christians in general, as well as an enemy of the U.S., has invested billions to sell Catholics pro-choice ideas and candidates. He invested billions to support Obama’s campaign, funding, for example, the Catholic Left, Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, Catholics United and Catholics for Choice (the pro-abortion group that has twice been condemned as a fraud by Catholic bishops). Those organizations funded by Soros worked hard to make Obama seem pro-life on abortion. We Catholics need to unite to defend ourselves, our children and our values from Obama and from Soros’ destructive lies, manipulation and influence. We need to realize that Soros is advancing and promoting evil not only in the U.S. but all over the world.

 

[Antonio_Sosa]

I’m sorry, but that’s absurd. With that same reasoning one can conclude that anyone who voted for McCain is pro-war.

Let’s not forget a few things: 1). Most common cause of abortion, or so it’s reported, is economic insecurity. Democrats spend more on social programs that work; and 2). Many staunch pro-lifers have been voting Republican since Roe v. Wade over thirty years ago, yet abortion is still legal. At one time, the Republicans controlled the White House, Congress, and the Supreme Court, yet the best we could do was a ban on partial-birth abortion. Don’t get me wrong, that was a very nice step - but it wasn’t enough.

Perhaps people are tired of voting for a party that never does anything about an issue they supposedly care about, so instead opted to vote for a candidate whose policies will, undoubtedly, reduce the number of abortions.

When you can’t treat the fallen nature of man, and in today’s secular society that appears unlikely, then perhaps treating the environment is the best we can do.

The comments above demonstrate that the billions invested by Soros and his ilk to brainwash Catholics, Christians and Americans in general obviously worked. Catholics and Christians are not perfect. We are all human beings, but we must never support EVIL (Obama’s pro-abortion measures).

 

[BobCatholic]

Pope John Paul VI and the Borgia are also the reason Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church in 1617?

We just had a Pope John Paul II. Pope John Paul IV is not scheduled to reign until around 2344. Hey, isn’t that around the time Star Trek becomes reality?

 

[Arrowood]

We just had a Pope John Paul II. Pope John Paul IV is not scheduled to reign until around 2344. Hey, isn’t that around the time Star Trek becomes reality?

Wasn’t Leo X the pope who excommunicated Martin Luther?

 

[NuCatholic73]

Ugh, I apologize profusely. It was Alexander VI that was the Pope that really causes so many Monks, Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals to speak out against the Catholic Church and what was going on within the Borgia family. Lucrezia and Cesare were two of his children, but he had a third son that was not mentioned in this article…his first and most beloved son that was possibly murdered by his second son. They kept changing his name so I got confused Please forgive!!!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgia

Lucrezia was the only one left alive when Martin Luther left(so Pope Leo X probably was in power), but it is believed that the Borgia were the catalysts for the Protestant Revolt…their underhanded tactics, murder, incest, and need to conquor all of Italy was well beyond what was appropriate and Christian. Many of these accusations cannot be proven, BUT nevertheless they caused great rifts within the clergy.

The point my husband once made was “How can we fix anything by walking away from it.” This is why I became Catholic without any hesitation and why I respect so many for standing by the Church through its darkest moments. We are not fighting a lost cause, but a cause that in 50 years we will find, had every reason for us to persevere. Murder is murder…no matter when and no mater by whom…God says it is wrong…not me, but I follow Him.