Pro-Gay in the name of tolerance

[Mirdath]

I see that you are limiting knowledge to what one can measure with their senses. This being the case, you are referring to rationalism. Do you believe that there are others ways of knowing (knowledge of) reality that are not limited to or contained by what is physical, i.e., metaphysical?

Actually that’d be empiricism

And of course I believe there are other ways of knowing things – or at least another way: Reason (there’s your rationalism). Mathematics wouldn’t have gotten very far on sense-information alone: algebra and geometry would be shadows of themselves, while calculus wouldn’t even exist. Faith, however, is the opposite of Reason. They can coexist, but they can’t reconcile.

 

[fix]

That is an assertion you make. No more absolute than my assertion that there exist absolute ethical standards; they will be true standards whether or not I agree. I merely happen to already.

No, it is your choice, and if you were born into it it is your choice to remain so. You have free will and you use it.

Funny, it’s outside me too. I don’t base my belief as to what it is on faith in God though; it’s really based on reason, practicality, and perhaps a sense of goodwill.

It doesn’t mean the Church is correct either.

It doesn’t show a flaw, it shows hypocrisy.

Oh, sorry, I didn’t realize I have to take it but can’t give it.

You have been using it to paint me morally unreliable and logically unsound, in the face of my repeated statements that I do not hold to the tenets required by moral relativism, my abjurations of those tenets, my professions of an absolutist stance, and my requests that you stop. Either prove me a relativist now without using the fact that I don’t hold to your creed in your argument or stop talking.

Is this what I am to understand tolerance is?

We are getting off topic, but I would ask how you can claim to believe in an absolute if you do not believe in God? He is absolute. What is your understanding of absolute?

 

[Mirdath]

Is this what I am to understand tolerance is?

You’re personally attacking me, refusing to listen to me, and trying to show others that I am something I am not. I do not have to tolerate slander or libel, and my response is really quite mild.

We are getting off topic, but I would ask how you can claim to believe in an absolute if you do not believe in God? He is absolute. What is your understanding of absolute?

Not God. That’s all I really have to say here, and it doesn’t make my position any less absolute. But you’re right, this is way off topic – there are other threads going right now on this subject where I’ve addressed it more specifically. Take it there.

Since you haven’t seen fit to prove me a relativist when I asked for immediate proof (as you kept calling me one), it would appear you are unable to. Thanks for playing.

 

[fix]

You’re personally attacking me, refusing to listen to me, and trying to show others that I am something I am not. I do not have to tolerate slander or libel, and my response is really quite mild.

I have no desire to do any of those things. Your inference does not make it so.

Not God. That’s all I really have to say here, and it doesn’t make my position any less absolute.

Yes, it is less than absolute.

But you’re right, this is way off topic – there are other threads going right now on this subject where I’ve addressed it more specifically. Take it there.

Ok, I will try to find them.

Since you haven’t seen fit to prove me a relativist when I asked for immediate proof (as you kept calling me one), it would appear you are unable to. Thanks for playing.

You reject the truth of God, that is proof enough.

 

[Mirdath]

You reject the truth of God, that is proof enough.

That proves me a relativist? Do you even know what a moral relativist is? Or are you assuming it simply means ‘someone who doesn’t agree with me’?

All that makes me is agnostic, which has nothing to do with moral stances at all. Try again.

 

[fix]

That proves me a relativist? Do you even know what a moral relativist is? Or are you assuming it simply means ‘someone who doesn’t agree with me’?

I will be happy to debate this topic, but let us start another thread.

 

[setter]

That proves me a relativist? Do you even know what a moral relativist is? Or are you assuming it simply means ‘someone who doesn’t agree with me’?

All that makes me is agnostic, which has nothing to do with moral stances at all. Try again.

Relativism does not ascribe to the Judeo-Christian understanding of God as the source of absolute truth, i.e, absolutism.

 

[setter]

Actually that’d be empiricism

And of course I believe there are other ways of knowing things – or at least another way: Reason (there’s your rationalism). Mathematics wouldn’t have gotten very far on sense-information alone: algebra and geometry would be shadows of themselves, while calculus wouldn’t even exist. Faith, however, is the opposite of Reason. They can coexist, but they can’t reconcile.

Empiricism and rationalism also believe. Your sequence of statements appear to contradict each other. Do you exclude experience and divine revelation from knowledge?

Originally Posted by Mirdath
Faith does not know. Faith believes. It may hold all other beliefs wrong, but that does not equate to knowledge. And if that belief is not enough for you, it is your faith that is lacking.

Originally Posted by** Mirdath**
Faith is by definition belief without empirical reason. You can know all you can about what’s around you in the physical world, but you can only have faith in the supernatural. I’m not trying to slam it here – I think faith is generally a good thing (even if I don’t share it), but faith and reason are opposites.

**rationalism ** –noun, defn;

1. the principle or habit of accepting reason as the supreme authority in matters of opinion, belief, or conduct.
2. Philosophy. a. the doctrine that reason alone is a source of knowledge and is independent of experience.
3. Theology. the doctrine that human reason, unaided by divine revelation, is an adequate or the sole guide to all attainable religious truth.

*empiricism ** * –noun, defn;

1. empirical method or practice.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from sense experience.

 

[Mirdath]

Relativism does not ascribe to the Judeo-Christian understanding of God as the source of absolute truth, i.e, absolutism.

No, relativism holds that there is no universal moral standard, whether it was set up by the J-C-I God, Brahma, Kronos, Wotan, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. What you’re talking about is usually given the name ‘paganism’. Disbelief in your idea of God never automatically implies moral relativism for the very simple reason that the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. There are Christian relativists, and there are non-Christian absolutists – I’m one of the latter, whether you like it or not.

Empiricism and rationalism also believe. Your sequence of statements appear to contradict each other. Do you exclude experience and divine revelation from knowledge?

They do not believe; they infer or deduce, respectively (please note, I use the philosophical definition of rationalism instead of the theological). Empirically, if someone throws a brick at your head, you can disbelieve it all you like but it’ll still hurt a lot. Empiricism and rationalism know. God cannot be known, for to do so precludes Faith.

We’re getting offtopic – are the gays still trying to force you guys to say they’re a-ok with God or have they slacked off a little?

 

[buffalo]

I likewise do not fit the psycho-sexual factors. And I have been gay as long as I can remember. I certainly did not make a “choice”. I would have never have chosen to be gay. It has led to much hardship. I have struggled to change and prayed to change. In my case the "disorder’ was when I lived in denial. Now that I have accepted the fact, my mental and spiritual well being has greatly improved.

The general psychological view at the moment is that homosexuality is present at birth and usually cannot be changed. Of course, there are those who disagree. There are always some people to back up any position. Hey, there are still those who believe that the earth revolves around the sun. That however, is not the belief of the scientific community as a whole.

Even if homosexuality is caused by environmental factors, that doesn’t mean that we can mistreat gay people.

I believe that all people need to be shown love and compassion. If our message is primarily one of condemnation and self-righteousness, we will never reach anyone with the wonderful message of God’s grace that come to us through faith.

Pablo

Stephen Bennett struggled with homosexuality *(or same-sex attraction, SSA) *until he was 28 years old. Alcoholic, bulimic and a drug addict, his destructive life style nearly killed him. Over 11 years active as a promiscuous homosexual man with numerous male partners, many of Stephen’s homosexual partners and friends are tragically dead from AIDS. Finally, one day while happily involved in a long term, committed relationship with a man he was in love with, Stephen was confronted by a Christian woman knocking at his door with a Bible in her hand – and the gospel of Jesus Christ. *He would never be the same again.

*That was over 16 years ago. Today at 43, Stephen is happily married over 13 years to his beautiful wife Irene - a Christian woman - who knew Stephen when he was actively living as a homosexual man and never stopped praying for him. Stephen and Irene are the parents of two beautiful little children, a boy and a girl. Their passion and commitment – as a couple and a family – is to *make a difference *in the lives of millions worldwide with the Truth.

 

[El_Paulo]

Stephen Bennett struggled with homosexuality *(or same-sex attraction, SSA) *until he was 28 years old. Alcoholic, bulimic and a drug addict, his destructive life style nearly killed him. Over 11 years active as a promiscuous homosexual man with numerous male partners, many of Stephen’s homosexual partners and friends are tragically dead from AIDS. Finally, one day while happily involved in a long term, committed relationship with a man he was in love with, Stephen was confronted by a Christian woman knocking at his door with a Bible in her hand – and the gospel of Jesus Christ. He would never be the same again.

That was over 16 years ago. Today at 43, Stephen is happily married over 13 years to his beautiful wife Irene - a Christian woman - who knew Stephen when he was actively living as a homosexual man and never stopped praying for him. Stephen and Irene are the parents of two beautiful little children, a boy and a girl. Their passion and commitment – as a couple and a family – is to *make a difference *in the lives of millions worldwide with the Truth.

It’s a heart-warming story - but why have you posted it as a reply to pablo’s post?

 

[Robert_Bay]

Thread Closed

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