Pro-life candidates are mean people?

[ZMystiCat]

I’m 99% confident that’s an apocryphal quote that St. Pius X never really stated…

It seems to have its origins in modern rad trad circles.

According to this article, it isn’t something that he wrote but a response he gave to those asking him to be kind to Modernists. And according to this blog post, it appears inconsistent with his actual behavior.

So, yeah, I’m not giving this quote much credence, especially since I can’t find a source on it beyond a meme.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

Grassroots pro-lifers are the only kind I’ve ever met. As for politicians, I don’t think I’ve ever met a single politician in my entire lifetime, and that includes both Dems and Reps.

 

[ConstantLearner]

If you judge gender solely by genitalia, they are. But medicine and science now know the biggest determinant of gender and sexuality, which are two different things, is the brain. A man’s brain operates, physiologically, in a different way, from a woman’s. Trans women have female brains, not male brains. So, using the brain as a determinant, a trans woman is a woman, not a man. A person should not be forced to be other than he or she is. I would hate it if I woke up tomorrow a man. I know I would take steps to correct it.

Most people today are enlightened. A trans person is born with a birth defect, the wrong genitalia, and it is a birth defect no more “disordered” than a child with Down’s syndrome.

 

[Start]

But medicine and science now know the biggest determinant of gender and sexuality, which are two different things, is the brain

That’s probably a disputed theory at best.

 

[ConstantLearner]

That’s probably a disputed theory at best.

Though it’s not accepted as all inclusive, it is accepted as the basis by modern medicine.

Where science disagrees is why it happens. Some blame the hormones secreted by the mother during pregnancy.

So, a birth defect, no more “disordered” than Down’s syndrome or cerebral palsy.

 

[Start]

it is accepted as the basis by modern medicine.

Modern medicine?

So, a birth defect, no more “disordered” than Down’s syndrome or cerebral palsy.

The brain can have defects too.

 

[ConstantLearner]

The brain can have defects too.

Of course it can, and defects are not “disordered.”

Modern medicine. Imaging techniques, etc. Surely you don’t think we still take a swig of whiskey and bite on a bullet to have surgery? Modern medicine has given us modern anesthetics, for one thing.

:Modern medicine" is a way of designating the modern medical community of doctors and researchers.

 

[ZMystiCat]

(Before responding to what I say, please note that I have gender dysphoria. My struggle with it, in fact, is a major reason I’m now Catholic.)

Trans women have female brains, not male brains.

I haven’t kept up with the research within the last couple years, but the last I checked, it wasn’t so much that transwomen’s brains were the same as women’s but that certain regions of the brain fell within similar measures to those of women on things like neuron count.

Of course, last I checked, the same could be said of gay men, so…yeah, the research can be a double-edged sword.

Most people today are enlightened.

I think you mean “woke” or whatever it is that people now use to signal that they enjoy the smell of their own farts.

A trans person is born with a birth defect, the wrong genitalia

And what makes you think it isn’t psychological, genetic, hormonal, or some combination of the three?

birth defect no more “disordered”

Technically speaking, any birth defect is a “disorder” under Catholic terminology, since it is ways in which the body, as a result of living in a fallen world, is not properly ordered to God’s perfect design. It’s not so much an insult or a matter of discrimination as it is a recognition that none of us live physically or spiritually as God desires. The most extreme form of disorder is, of course, death.

Edit: Told link is age-restricted. That might have more to do with the show (South Park) than with the content of the specific video.

 

[ConstantLearner]

When I say it’s a birth defect rather than a disorder, I mean people are born with gender dysphoria. I am a heterosexual female, but I know people with it, and since you have it, you must know no one would choose to live a life that can often be filled with torture and turmoil. I’m sure psychological factors must come into play at some point, but no one I know says they deliberately chose gender dysphoria or even same sex attraction, which is something different, but often lumped in with other sexual problems. The LGBTQ community.

Not much angers me at all, but the Catholic Church’s stance toward those suffering from gender dysphoria or same sex attraction or even bisexualism, which is really quite common, upsets me to the point where I cannot touch the doors of a Catholic church when I’m invited to a baptism or wedding, etc. Instead of simply helping and embracing a suffering community, the Church labels them as “disordered.” Not every person on this planet was meant to have children. The only reason they call it “disordered” is because sexual relations are involved. They don’t stigmatize people with cerebral palsy, Down’s syndrome, etc., and those are just as much a disorder, technically speaking, as gender dysphoria or same sex attraction. To me, the Church is stigmatizing an entire community and increasing its suffering, something that is not tolerable to me. (I am not Catholic, by the way; I am Jewish.) The Church does not seem to stigmatize women with vaginismus, and that is a sexual disorder since women who marry are expected to have sexual relations and be open to birthing children. (Though I do think you say if one cannot have sexual relations, one cannot marry, so maybe they do stigmatize.)

It all seems so incredibly cruel to me. It’s like the Church thinks people wake up one day and say, “I think I’ll only sleep with the same sex from now on.” Or, “Gee, woman seem to have it so much better, I think I’ll be one.” Now that would be disordered, but the reality of the situation is simply heartbreaking and tragic.

 

[Start]

Catholic Church’s stance toward those suffering from gender dysphoria

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a stance on gender dysphoria.

Instead of simply helping and embracing a suffering community, the Church labels them as “disordered.

A lot of things are labeled as disordered in the Catechism. The acts and inclinations are called disordered and that’s kind of what sin and temptation are.

They don’t stigmatize people with cerebral palsy, Down’s syndrome, etc., and those are just as much a disorder, technically speaking, as gender dysphoria or same sex attraction.

These things are physical and it doesn’t make much sense for the Catholic Church to talk about it since it mostly focuses on moral and spiritual problems.

It’s like the Church thinks people wake up one day and say, “I think I’ll only sleep with the same sex from now on.” Or, “Gee, woman seem to have it so much better, I think I’ll be one.”

The Catholic Church doesn’t say anything about their origins.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Edit: Told link is age-restricted. That might have more to do with the show (South Park) than with the content of the specific video.

The link worked for me, but I don’t mean that when I say “enlightened.” And, future generations will no doubt wonder why we were so backward.

I mean we accept people as they are unless they are breaking laws or harming others or the environment, etc. I mean we know more now than past generations knew. We no longer throw women into bodies to water to see if they are a witch, and if they drown, they are not. We’ve moved beyond that.

 

[ConstantLearner]

The Catholic Church doesn’t say anything about their origins.

It needs to consider the origins and have some sympathy instead of stigmatizing. No wonder membership is dwindling except in Africa where conversion rates are high. Even converts only stay about three years on average.

 

[Start]

It needs to consider the origins and have some sympathy instead of stigmatizing.

There aren’t any clear indications of what the origins are and compassion and sensitivity are called for in the Catechism.

No wonder membership is dwindling except in Africa where conversion rates are high. Even converts only stay about three years on average.

This projection is probably based on what exactly? Anyways that’s not really important.

 

[ConstantLearner]

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a stance on gender dysphoria.

It might not use the words “gender dysphoria” but it has a stance:

https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/upload/Gender-Ideology-Select-Teaching-Resources.pdf

 

[Start]

And the problem with it is?

 

[ZMystiCat]

I’m sure psychological factors must come into play at some point, but no one I know says they deliberately chose gender dysphoria

I’m not really sure the reason for the “but” there. Many aspects of our psychology are not chosen, and that includes most psychological problems. Even nurtured problems are often outside our control.

Instead of simply helping and embracing a suffering community, the Church labels them as “disordered.”

If I may offer an alternative perspective:

While the Church does declare a lot within the realm of gender and sexuality as disordered, focusing exclusively on that causes you to miss most of what the Church has to say. Most of what it has to say exemplifies the beauty of what it is calling people to. Just as each individual is an image-bearer of God, so too is marriage an image-bearing union of God.

First, it bears the image of the Trinity, of two person’s coming together in love to become one and that love-induced union bearing another image-bearer of God. That is like how Father and Son are so united in love that it causes the Holy Spirit to proceed.

Second, it mirrors Christ and His Church. The two, in love, come together and help bring life into the world. Scripturally, the marriage union is often framed in terms of Christ (male) and Church (female), both of which are absolutely wonderful entities to represent!

When you consider all the Church says about God, Church, life, and love and come to realize that all of that is captured in marriage, then it makes marriage too beautiful to adequately describe on this forum in detail. A participation in that beauty is what the Church calls us to.

But of course, we often want what is imperfect. Lust is by far the most common, but some of us desire to wallow in other tarnished reflections. I, for one, struggle in my role as reflecting Christ and, left to myself, would rather destroy any chance of having this union, all for pleasing lesser desires. That’s why the Church warns us of what is disordered. It wants us to participate in the greater beauty, to live out accurately reflecting God or accurately reflecting Christ and Church.

When we focus on the beauty, recognize the beauty, and desire the beautiful, the Church’s teaching becomes less a condemnation and more a call for striving. Do many condemn? Sure, but officially, the Church is calling us to strive for something greater.

Not every person on this planet was meant to have children.

Of all organizations in the world, I think the Catholic Church is among the most aware of that.

They don’t stigmatize people with cerebral palsy, Down’s syndrome, etc., and those are just as much a disorder

Just to be clear: The Church doesn’t call people disordered. It calls desires and conditions disordered. For instance, I’m not disordered, but my gender dysphoria is a disordered desire. Even if I act on that disordered desire, I am not, as a human, disordered.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I appreciate it, and it does help me to understand the Catholic Church’s position a little better.

Part of my disconnect (can’t think of another word right now) with the Church’s stance is that being Jewish, I do not believe in the Trinity or in the messiahship of Jesus. I think he existed and was a kind and loving person, but just a person. I don’t believe he was a liar because I believe he truly thought he was the messiah. I think he was simply mistaken. And really, he, himself, left behind no writings, so we only have the word of his followers for what Jesus was like, what he said, etc. But all of that is for a different thread.

To me, both pro-life and pro-choice candidates can become over-zealous and mean when trying to get their views across to others. I suppose that’s because both believe strongly in what they’re talking about, and both feel a great need to convince very reluctant-to-change others.

 

[petra22]

Here in our state a mother can go sign up for food stamps, welfare, classes, and so much more, health card for the baby… how can you say people dont’ support mothers??? and that doesn’t count what the churches contribute… what they really want is for the father to take his responsibility… to love the mother and the child… but there is so many other potential baby mommas out there…

 

[petra22]

Wow, at least the baby would be alive…

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Wow, at least the baby would be alive…

So locking women up for expressing a desire to abort and then taking the baby away immediately after delivery is reasonable in your eyes?