Pro-life does not mean anti-gay

[fix]

Penny Plain:

I think the letter is fine. The two are not linked.

I mean, we all know what abortion is, right? Abortion is the murder of an unborn child. However evil you believe homosexuality is, it’s not as evil as abortion, and equating the two minimizes the evil of abortion.

I am not on the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee, and the Committee may do what it likes. It seems foolish to me, though, that a group formed for the specific purpose of combatting the evils of abortion is now branching out into areas of the public debate that are beyond its charter. I think it weakens the organization, and this letter is proof that it is alienating some of its members.

Yes, abortionists and homosexuals “both deliberately separate the sexual act from its life-giving purpose,” no question about that. The point of the Right-to-Life Committee, though, is to provide a pro-life voice in the abortion debate, to speak for the unborn who can’t speak for themselves. It seems like good politics to me to get together as many people as possible to focus on that one issue. It seems like bad politics to branch out and drive people away.

These issues are all linked. One of the most important links to these culture of death issues is contraception. I see no reason why anti abortion groups should not speak out on all life issues. Abortion, euthanasia, homosexual acts, etc are all part of this culture and all need to be addressed.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

Actually, it shows great wisdom on the part of the Right-to-Life Committee. They realize that the pro-death lobby and the homosexual agenda lobby are joined at the hip. They understand that both groups are opposed to God’s plan for life. They realize that their is spiritual evil behind both groups. They also understand that you cannot compromise on something as fundamental as marriage and family and still stand for life.

Well, we disagree on your last sentence, that’s for sure. And other people do, as well (hence the letter).

I think it’s bad politics. The group wasn’t formed to combat all “spiritual evil” or push all aspects of God’s plan for life. It was formed to fight abortion. If it’s like other anti-abortion groups, its strength comes from the fact that people of all ages, religions, and political persuasions can unite in opposition to abortion. The more people in the group, the more likely the group is to be effective.

Brad, you want an across-the-board “God’s Plan for Life” group, that takes public stands opposed (presumably) to homosexuality, contraception, non-vaginal sex, euthanasia, right-to-die legislation, and, oh yeah, abortion. Go for it. Purge those who don’t agree with your stand on all those issues, and the 15 of you who are left can sit around the office all day wondering why your legislators don’t call you back.

Interest groups that succeed in American political life are those that can focus a lot of people around a single issue, like abortion. The more you dilute your focus, the fewer people you’ll have. The fewer people you have, the less likely you are to be politically effective.

I do not know what the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee did to the Buffalo Gay Men’s Chorus. I have joined pro-life groups that focus on abortion. If I belonged to this group, I would quit if it began focusing on issues such as homosexuality. I am sure I wouldn’t be the only one.

 

[Lisa_N]

Penny Plain:

I think it’s bad politics. The group wasn’t formed to combat all “spiritual evil” or push all aspects of God’s plan for life. It was formed to fight abortion. If it’s like other anti-abortion groups, its strength comes from the fact that people of all ages, religions, and political persuasions can unite in opposition to abortion. The more people in the group, the more likely the group is to be effective…

Right to Life groups do focus on abortion but they are also very committed to opposing the euthanasia movement. I realize you disagree with Brad’s encompassing view of the function of prolife but clearly the same groups that oppose abortion also oppose euthanasia.
Penny Plain:

Interest groups that succeed in American political life are those that can focus a lot of people around a single issue, like abortion. The more you dilute your focus, the fewer people you’ll have. The fewer people you have, the less likely you are to be politically effective…

Gee I’m glad Mother Teresa didn’t have that attitude.
Penny Plain:

I do not know what the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee did to the Buffalo Gay Men’s Chorus. I have joined pro-life groups that focus on abortion. If I belonged to this group, I would quit if it began focusing on issues such as homosexuality. I am sure I wouldn’t be the only one.

I don’t think the plan is to focus on homosexuality but to promote a consistent life ethic. Further, I suspect if you were to chart the individuals who believe in abortion at will and homosexual activism it would track very closely while at the same time the prolife folks are unlikely to support homosexual marriage, homosexual activity and homosexual activism. IOW I would suspect most homosexuals are very much in the pro “choice” camp and ally themselves with that group. Homosexuals for Life is almost an oxymoron.

I don’t think people are as passionate about preventing homosexual activists from infiltrating our world as they are about stopping abortion or the euthanasia promoters because while utterly disgusting, homosexual activities are not generally fatal in the short term, AIDS and other STDs notwithstanding. However I think it’s rather counterproductive to claim you would quit working on prolife activities if under the “life tent” other issues beyond stopping abortion were part of the organization’s activities.

Lisa N

 

[Penny_Plain]

Lisa N:

Right to Life groups do focus on abortion but they are also very committed to opposing the euthanasia movement. I realize you disagree with Brad’s encompassing view of the function of prolife but clearly the same groups that oppose abortion also oppose euthanasia.

You’re right.
Lisa N:

Gee I’m glad Mother Teresa didn’t have that attitude.

So am I, but Mother Teresa was doing something else entirely.
Lisa N:

I don’t think the plan is to focus on homosexuality but to promote a consistent life ethic. Further, I suspect if you were to chart the individuals who believe in abortion at will and homosexual activism it would track very closely while at the same time the prolife folks are unlikely to support homosexual marriage, homosexual activity and homosexual activism.

I’ve got no problem with promoting a consistent life ethic, at least as long as you don’t start asking questions about what my definition is… I think you have a lot better chance at ending abortion (or at least limiting it) if you focus on abortion and don’t dilute the message.
Lisa N:

I don’t think people are as passionate about preventing homosexual activists from infiltrating our world as they are about stopping abortion or the euthanasia promoters because while utterly disgusting, homosexual activities are not generally fatal in the short term, AIDS and other STDs notwithstanding.

That might be one reason. There certainly might be others as well. I think you prioritize your response based where you can do the most good. I view abortion as a much greater moral evil than homosexuality or jaywalking. I focus my efforts there.
Lisa N:

However I think it’s rather counterproductive to claim you would quit working on prolife activities if under the “life tent” other issues beyond stopping abortion were part of the organization’s activities.

I agree entirely, but that’s not what I said. I said I’d quit the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee if it did whatever it appears to have done to the Buffalo Gay Men’s Chorus. (The mind boggles, really.) Surely one can work on prolife activities outside the auspices of the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee?

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

Well, we disagree on your last sentence, that’s for sure. And other people do, as well (hence the letter).

Then you must disagree with the Church’s position on homosexual unions. It’s pretty difficult for pro-life groups to please all those that put their opinion over that of God’s Church.
Penny Plain:

I think it’s bad politics. The group wasn’t formed to combat all “spiritual evil” or push all aspects of God’s plan for life. It was formed to fight abortion. If it’s like other anti-abortion groups, its strength comes from the fact that people of all ages, religions, and political persuasions can unite in opposition to abortion.

I think the pro-life movement has been weakened by compromise.and competition. What they have been doing has not worked. Time for something different - no compromise on truth. I can see your point on contraception but for pro-lifers to be pro-homosexual unions makes almost no sense. Just because homosexuality is pop today doesn’t make it’s actions not diabolical and wholly opposed to nature and supernature.
Penny Plain:

The more people in the group, the more likely the group is to be effective.

Jesus started with 12. He said “Follow Me.” He did not say “Follow me sometimes when it feels right and you don’t have a homosexual cousin”. The pro-life group asks for your support in saving babies. If your committment to allowing homosexual propaganda in a place of Christian worship and real presence of Jesus is so high that you are embarrassed by being seen with other people that want to save babies, I pray that your committment to saving babies will increase.
Penny Plain:

Brad, you want an across-the-board “God’s Plan for Life” group, that takes public stands opposed (presumably) to homosexuality, contraception, non-vaginal sex, euthanasia, right-to-die legislation, and, oh yeah, abortion. Go for it. Purge those who don’t agree with your stand on all those issues, and the 15 of you who are left can sit around the office all day wondering why your legislators don’t call you back.

Hmmm. That’s more than 12. And yet we have plenty of legislators that oppose homosexual unions and abortion. In fact, an increased number of them were voted in in the past election.

I want a pro-life group than stands up against promoting those things that you mention in a Catholic Church. I am not asking any pro-life group to police anyone’s sexual habits. That is their issue and their sin. They are the ones that are promoting the sin in public and in God’s house. Did they not expect people would be upset?

The homosexual agenda has always been about promotion, in pu blic, in your face, and behind your back. It is not about the bedroom. It is about forced normalization. It takes courage to stand up against those so bold in their agenda.

It is interesting though that you mention all those other sexual sins. In my experience I have observed that those that resist the church’s teachings on homosexuality are also compromising her teaching on one or more of the other sexual sins.
Penny Plain:

Interest groups that succeed in American political life are those that can focus a lot of people around a single issue, like abortion. The more you dilute your focus, the fewer people you’ll have. The fewer people you have, the less likely you are to be politically effective.

Perhaps. But abortion will never be outlawed as long as we accept homosexual behavior as normal.
Penny Plain:

I do not know what the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee did to the Buffalo Gay Men’s Chorus. I have joined pro-life groups that focus on abortion. If I belonged to this group, I would quit if it began focusing on issues such as homosexuality. I am sure I wouldn’t be the only one.

A very small group of brave people held up signs outside the church and have been persistently villified by efforts of the chorus themselves and other writers of the paper and writers to the paper. The question is where are all the other faithful Catholics?

 

[Brad]

buffalo:

Thanks Penny Plain.

 

[Brad]

Penny Plain:

That might be one reason. There certainly might be others as well. I think you prioritize your response based where you can do the most good. I view abortion as a much greater moral evil than homosexuality or jaywalking. I focus my efforts there.

[IQUOTE]

No I see where the misunderstanding is coming from.

The sin of homosexual behavior is MUCH closer in depravity and negative consequence to that of abortion than jaywalking.

Please.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

The sin of homosexual behavior is MUCH closer in depravity and negative consequence to that of abortion than jaywalking.

My point exactly. Some things are more important than others. You admit that (although both are important) abortion is more important than homosexuality. So why not keep the pro-life movement focused on abortion, the greater evil?

 

[Penny_Plain]

Brad:

Then you must disagree with the Church’s position on homosexual unions. It’s pretty difficult for pro-life groups to please all those that put their opinion over that of God’s Church.

…

Time for something different - no compromise on truth. I can see your point on contraception but for pro-lifers to be pro-homosexual unions makes almost no sense.

…

The pro-life group asks for your support in saving babies. If your committment to allowing homosexual propaganda in a place of Christian worship and real presence of Jesus is so high that you are embarrassed by being seen with other people that want to save babies, I pray that your committment to saving babies will increase.

…

It is interesting though that you mention all those other sexual sins. In my experience I have observed that those that resist the church’s teachings on homosexuality are also compromising her teaching on one or more of the other sexual sins.

…

The question is where are all the other faithful Catholics?

Initially I posted a genius response to this which would have brought you over to my side, Brad. Unfortunately, Satan (through his minions, Michael Dell and Bill Gates) caused that post to be destroyed, thus destroying our chances for unity and throwing the Forces of Light into greater disarray.

You’re so close, Brad. You see the same things I do, but you draw such different conclusions. You see that linking the pro-life cause to anti-homosexuality issues is going to cost us support. You realize that those of us linked to “sexual sins” (which I brought up because this thread seems to want to link the pro-life movement to the “culture of li…” I mean, “Culture of Life,” which includes all those issues) are going to back away from such a movement.

Heck, you even seem happy that the pro-life movement will consist only of “faithful Catholics.”

This is foolishness. Some things are more important than others. Even you agree that abortion is a greater evil than homosexuality. Numbers lead to political power, and the Buffalo Pro-Life Committee is not the second coming of Jesus Christ. I expect it can do a lot more with 15,000 supporters than it can with 15. Weren’t we told to be subtle?

Be subtle. Fight one fight at a time. Don’t turn away people like me who will fight tooth and nail on abortion but disagree vehemently with some of the other CULTURE OF LIFE issues. You need us, and we need you. The babies need all of us.

Don’t make us hold our noses to join you.

And, on a related note, I was also somewhat puzzled by Buffalo’s joy that I was going to write a letter to the paper.

 

[Lisa_N]

Penny Plain:

So am I, but Mother Teresa was doing something else entirely.?

Really? My take on Mother Teresa was that she was the ultimate in prolife activists. As I understand she took more than one powerful leader to task about their complacency toward human beings, whether at the beginning or the end of life. Mother Teresa’s strength was in her consistency. She didn’t pick and choose amongst the CCC for those issues most politically acceptable. Anyway my point is that Mother Teresa always stated that EACH of us can make a difference. It doesn’t take powerful lobbyists, large organizations or interest groups to change things.
Penny Plain:

I’ve got no problem with promoting a consistent life ethic, at least as long as you don’t start asking questions about what my definition is… I think you have a lot better chance at ending abortion (or at least limiting it) if you focus on abortion and don’t dilute the message.

THe message is simple, choose life. That simple message can be used to make decisions regarding the beginning of life, the end of life and any decisions in the middle. Picking and choosing amongst sins–this one is bad, that one is ok, and we wink and nod over what’s behind door number three–is not going to change any minds or hearts. You must be consistent or the message seems incredibly disingenuous. For example how many pro aborts are completely opposed to the death penalty? Does that make ANY sense? Nope.
Penny Plain:

That might be one reason. There certainly might be others as well. I think you prioritize your response based where you can do the most good. I view abortion as a much greater moral evil than homosexuality or jaywalking. I focus my efforts there.?

I agree, put the focus and emphasis on the most critical issues at that time. If the RTL committee had blown off a major event that supported abortion in order to stand outside the church hosting the “Gay” Men’s Chorus, then I would certainly agree that their priorities are not straight (he he no pun intended). OTOH it does not sound as if participating in the opposition to this even meant that funds and energy were taken away from a crucial anti abortion rally.

As to the jaywalking analogy, I think you are minimizing the damage of homosexual activists. As Brad said, the issue is NOT what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms or in their thoughts, the issue is forcing this perverted lifestyle on those who have zero interest in a perfect stranger’s sex life. I mean how does it help or hurt the chorus to be labelled as sodomites? Is this label even relevant to their singing ability?
Penny Plain:

I agree entirely, but that’s not what I said. I said I’d quit the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee if it did whatever it appears to have done to the Buffalo Gay Men’s Chorus. (The mind boggles, really.) Surely one can work on prolife activities outside the auspices of the Buffalo Right-to-Life Committee?

Far as I know the RTL committee wrote a few letters and carried a few signs. I don’t recall hearing of any pies thrown at the chorus. Hardly a hangin’ offense dont you agree?

Lisa N

 

[Penny_Plain]

Lisa N:

my point is that Mother Teresa always stated that EACH of us can make a difference. It doesn’t take powerful lobbyists, large organizations or interest groups to change things.

God bless Mother Teresa, but she was wrong, and so are you, at least in politics. Yes, it only takes one person to help the suffering or comfort the dying.

This is politics. If you don’t believe me, try the following experiment: Get on the phone to your legislator. Tell him or her your opinion on abortion, and tell him or her you want changes. Then look at the paper tomorrow to see what has changed. Repeat this process for a year, if you want.

I will bet you a shiny new quarter that the answer will be nothing. People accomplish things politically in groups.
Lisa N:

THe message is simple, choose life. That simple message can be used to make decisions regarding the beginning of life, the end of life and any decisions in the middle. Picking and choosing amongst sins–this one is bad, that one is ok, and we wink and nod over what’s behind door number three–is not going to change any minds or hearts. You must be consistent or the message seems incredibly disingenuous.

You must be consistent, but where does it say you have to address all the issues politically at once?
Lisa N:

For example how many pro aborts are completely opposed to the death penalty?

Lots, I think.
Lisa N:

I agree, put the focus and emphasis on the most critical issues at that time. If the RTL committee had blown off a major event that supported abortion in order to stand outside the church hosting the “Gay” Men’s Chorus, then I would certainly agree that their priorities are not straight (he he no pun intended). OTOH it does not sound as if participating in the opposition to this even meant that funds and energy were taken away from a crucial anti abortion rally.

…

Far as I know the RTL committee wrote a few letters and carried a few signs. I don’t recall hearing of any pies thrown at the chorus. Hardly a hangin’ offense dont you agree?

Get a rope.

No, just kidding. It’s not necessarily that they’re wasting time or resources; it’s that they’re going outside their mission. I mean, lots of members would be annoyed if the BPLC were to, I don’t know, picket Wal-Mart for selling Trojans or picket a divorce lawyer. Why? That’s not what the membership signed on for.

More people are opposed to abortion than support the entire CULTURE OF LIFE agenda. I’ll admit it; I’m one. I’m not alone. What percentage of US Catholics accept the church’s teachings on abortion but reject them on contraception? What percentage of US Catholics support the right of people to refuse nutrition when they’re in a persistent vegetative state?

You guys are making this into a test of ideological purity. Feel free, if you want, but don’t be surprised when your numbers get a lot smaller. Sure, God rewards the pure of heart, but you are not Gideon, and Planned Parenthood is not the Midianites.

 

[legeorge]

I’m not going to argue that pro-lifers *should * be anti-gay agenda activists. But the fact is that most nitty-gritty, pavement walking, letter writing, get the tough work done pro-lifers are *very * religious. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t stick their necks out to swim upstream against the “Culture of Death” that is progressively permeating our culture like the black plague. Very religious people are, by nature, opposed to all things that are contrary to the will of God. They can’t help but be concerned about all the evils society has concocted to exploit the human person. And, though opposing the homosexual agenda isn’t their main focus, I can see why they think it is a matter of concern.
If I may propose another link between homosexuality and pro-life issues. How do most homosexual couples have children? In-vitro fertilization, surrogate mothers, etc. I think that these are also legitimate concerns. Frozen embryos being destroyed, and treating babies like commodities to be bought and sold and obtained at will should concern all those who claim to be pro-life.

 

[Lisa_N]

Penny Plain:

God bless Mother Teresa, but she was wrong, and so are you, at least in politics. Yes, it only takes one person to help the suffering or comfort the dying…

You obviously underestimate Mother Teresa’s impact on the world. That’s too bad.
Penny Plain:

This is politics. If you don’t believe me, try the following experiment: Get on the phone to your legislator. Tell him or her your opinion on abortion, and tell him or her you want changes. Then look at the paper tomorrow to see what has changed. Repeat this process for a year, if you want.

I will bet you a shiny new quarter that the answer will be nothing. People accomplish things politically in groups…

Gee that was a really helpful statement. Do you have more positive suggestions? The point is that one person CAN influence and change things. Sure they have to get more on the bandwagon so to speak but to suggest that we all sit on our hands because we can’t overturn Roe singlehandedly is a ridiculously defeatist attitude.
Penny Plain:

No, just kidding. It’s not necessarily that they’re wasting time or resources; it’s that they’re going outside their mission. I mean, lots of members would be annoyed if the BPLC were to, I don’t know, picket Wal-Mart for selling Trojans or picket a divorce lawyer. Why? That’s not what the membership signed on for…

You underestimate the mission and you can hardly equate homosexual activism with offering condoms in a drug store. Again, what part of the phrase “choose life” do you find difficult to understand?
Penny Plain:

More people are opposed to abortion than support the entire CULTURE OF LIFE agenda. I’ll admit it; I’m one…

Hope meals in the cafeteria are good.
Penny Plain:

I’m not alone. What percentage of US Catholics accept the church’s teachings on abortion but reject them on contraception? What percentage of US Catholics support the right of people to refuse nutrition when they’re in a persistent vegetative state?.

Your comment is internally inconsistent. How does a person in a persistent vegatative state refuse nutrition? Further if you are referring to the Schiavo case, Terri didn’t refuse nutrition, she was prevented from receiving it.
Penny Plain:

You guys are making this into a test of ideological purity. Feel free, if you want, but don’t be surprised when your numbers get a lot smaller. Sure, God rewards the pure of heart, but you are not Gideon, and Planned Parenthood is not the Midianites.

No you obviously don’t understand the point or you are being deliberately obtuse in order to pretend not to ‘get it.’ There is nothing inconsistent about a prolife group objecting to homosexual activism. I suspect most prolife people oppose homosexual activism, particularly when they are in your own church. I dont think there is anything objectionable about the members of the prolife committee objecting to self identified homosexuals promoting their sin in a Cahtolic church.

Lisa N

 

[Penny_Plain]

Lisa N:

Do you have more positive suggestions? The point is that one person CAN influence and change things. Sure they have to get more on the bandwagon so to speak but to suggest that we all sit on our hands because we can’t overturn Roe singlehandedly is a ridiculously defeatist attitude.

My positive suggestion was that pro-life groups should focus on preventing abortions and not get sidetracked. The greatest hero in my native country spent years and years in prison. If anyone changed us from what we were to what we are, it was him. But even he did it only with the support of hundreds of thousands of people behind him. He did it with a single-minded focus on justice, and he did not get sidetracked.
Lisa N:

You underestimate the mission and you can hardly equate homosexual activism with offering condoms in a drug store. Again, what part of the phrase “choose life” do you find difficult to understand?

If we’re defining “pro-life” to mean Culture of Life, then, yeah, both contraception and homosexuality are equally relevant. In fact, given the claim that some contraceptives are abortifacents (I never could spell that word), I would think those on the side of the Angels of Light would focus on the contraceptives first.
Lisa N:

Hope meals in the cafeteria are good.

Your point, my sister in Christ?
Lisa N:

Your comment is internally inconsistent. How does a person in a persistent vegatative state refuse nutrition? Further if you are referring to the Schiavo case, Terri didn’t refuse nutrition, she was prevented from receiving it.

A person in a persistent vegetative state refuses nutrition and hydration by means of an advance directive, also known as a “living will.” Terri didn’t do that, I agree, but many people (Catholics included) do.
Lisa N:

No you obviously don’t understand the point or you are being deliberately obtuse in order to pretend not to ‘get it.’ There is nothing inconsistent about a prolife group objecting to homosexual activism. I suspect most prolife people oppose homosexual activism, particularly when they are in your own church. I dont think there is anything objectionable about the members of the prolife committee objecting to self identified homosexuals promoting their sin in a Cahtolic church.

Temper, temper… “Don’t understand?” “Deliberately obtuse?” Consider a third possibility – that I am sincerely in disagreement with you and I am neither thick nor unprincipled. Any chance of us engaging on that basis?

It doesn’t bother me that members of the BPLC object to “homosexual activism,” at least it doesn’t bother me any more than when anyone else does. They can do what they please in their private capacities.

It does bother me that they hijack a cause I believe in to serve another. There are more than Catholics in the BPLC, I would think, and there are more than Catholics in the pro-life movement. I cannot speak for all pro-lifers, only the ones I have met, and that’s not really very many. Of the ones I know, some are sympathetic to the attempts of homosexuals to gain some measure of acceptance in American society and the Catholic Church. It will no doubt shock you deeply that my husband and I fall into that category.

Most of the rest I know are in the pro-life movement because they think abortion is wrong and do not give a rat’s rear-end (Will such strong language get Penny banned at last? Maybe I should say “patoot” instead.) about homosexual activism in the Catholic Church.

The pro-life movement needs all the people it can get. Why the sudden fervor to alienate them over an issue that has nothing to do with abortion?

 

[Promotor_Fidei]

Penny Plain:

Most of the rest I know are in the pro-life movement because they think abortion is wrong and do not give a rat’s rear-end (Will such strong language get Penny banned at last? Maybe I should say “patoot” instead.) about homosexual activism in the Catholic Church.

I’ve heard sentiments just like this before, Penny. Every Wiccan nun or athiest priest I’ve ever run across has said “Can’t we just help the poor? Do we have to talk theology? It’s so divisive.” And by that they mean, “Let’s not talk about God, because I believe in a Unitarian Goddess.”

Matthew 15:9 ‘They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

What did Christ command us to do? “He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:15-16

Following Christ isn’t a single-issue topic or even a cafeteria buffet. It affects everything we are, our very souls. Sure, some of us will focus our energies on one topic or another, but we are called to witness to the truth, first and foremost. Charity and prudence sometimes dictates silence, but we can never pretend to approve of public sin… that’s participating in the sin of scandal.

One of my concerns is for the suffering Church in Canada, especially Bishop Henry of Calgary who is standing trial (and facing a two year prison sentence) for speaking his mind. We should pray for him, pray that Canadians regain their freedoms, and pray that Americans do not lose theirs.

 

[Lisa_N]

Penny Plain:

My positive suggestion was that pro-life groups should focus on preventing abortions and not get sidetracked. The greatest hero in my native country spent years and years in prison. If anyone changed us from what we were to what we are, it was him. But even he did it only with the support of hundreds of thousands of people behind him. He did it with a single-minded focus on justice, and he did not get sidetracked.?

How is some portion of the group participating in a demonstration or letter writing campaign being sideracked? You act like they’ve dropped everything to protest a group of singing sodomites but in reality it seems like a relatively benign activity.
Penny Plain:

If we’re defining “pro-life” to mean Culture of Life, then, yeah, both contraception and homosexuality are equally relevant. In fact, given the claim that some contraceptives are abortifacents (I never could spell that word), I would think those on the side of the Angels of Light would focus on the contraceptives first.?

I don’t think the term Culture of Life equates the various sexual sins. Further I agree that the focus should be on the most blatant and obvious murders of unborn babies rather than the singing sodomites. But again, it’s not a matter of either/or but presenting a consistent approach within (assuming one is Catholic) the guidance of our Church.
Penny Plain:

Your point, my sister in Christ??

I think it’s quite obvious. You have decided to pick and choose amongst the various sexual sins to ignore rather than accepting the Church’s guidance.
Penny Plain:

A person in a persistent vegetative state refuses nutrition and hydration by means of an advance directive, also known as a “living will.” Terri didn’t do that, I agree, but many people (Catholics included) do.?

Are you sure even a Catholic is required to have nutrition and hydration against their will?
Penny Plain:

It does bother me that they hijack a cause I believe in to serve another. There are more than Catholics in the BPLC, I would think, and there are more than Catholics in the pro-life movement. I cannot speak for all pro-lifers, only the ones I have met, and that’s not really very many. Of the ones I know, some are sympathetic to the attempts of homosexuals to gain some measure of acceptance in American society and the Catholic Church. It will no doubt shock you deeply that my husband and I fall into that category.?

Acceptance as what? Human beings?I don’t think homosexuals have any problems being accepted as human beings or as Catholics as long as “acceptance” doesn’t mean accepting deviant, unhealthy and sinful behavior. Remember the ‘love the sinner hate the sin’ mantra? It makes sense in the case of homosexuals. As a Catholic I believe active homosexuality is wrong. I don’t want to hear about it, think about or be confronted with this activity in public. What they do in their bedrooms is between them and God.
Penny Plain:

Most of the rest I know are in the pro-life movement because they think abortion is wrong and do not give a rat’s rear-end (Will such strong language get Penny banned at last? Maybe I should say “patoot” instead.) about homosexual activism in the Catholic Church.

The pro-life movement needs all the people it can get. Why the sudden fervor to alienate them over an issue that has nothing to do with abortion?

Let’s see. You make all the rules and if we won’t go along you leave the sandbox and take your toys with you right? The church has addressed the issue of homosexuality and abortion. You can’t really think it makes sense that you get to decide whether or not the Church is correct.

Lisa N

 

[Penny_Plain]

Lisa N:

Let’s see. You make all the rules and if we won’t go along you leave the sandbox and take your toys with you right? The church has addressed the issue of homosexuality and abortion. You can’t really think it makes sense that you get to decide whether or not the Church is correct.

(sigh)

You just don’t get that we have a sincere disagreement. You insist on insult and ridicule.

I’m done with you. Good luck…

 

[Penny_Plain]

Promotor Fidei:

Following Christ isn’t a single-issue topic or even a cafeteria buffet. It affects everything we are, our very souls. Sure, some of us will focus our energies on one topic or another, but we are called to witness to the truth, first and foremost. Charity and prudence sometimes dictates silence, but we can never pretend to approve of public sin… that’s participating in the sin of scandal.

One of my concerns is for the suffering Church in Canada, especially Bishop Henry of Calgary who is standing trial (and facing a two year prison sentence) for speaking his mind. We should pray for him, pray that Canadians regain their freedoms, and pray that Americans do not lose theirs.

Let me see if I have this straight.

The BRLC is formed to fight abortion.

BUT if it were to remain silent on the presence of the Gay Men’s Chorus in a Catholic church in Buffalo, it would be appearing to approve of public sin.

That would be scandal.

Scandal is a sin.

SO therefore the BRLC must speak out against the public sin of homosexuals singing choral music in a Catholic church, even though its members (many of whom may not be Catholic) formed the organization for a different purpose entirely.

Because if they don’t, they’re no better than Unitarians.

And then America will be like Canada where priests will get thrown in the pokey.

Do go on. It’s all becoming so clear, the way you explain it.

 

[allhers]

quote=Penny Plain

You just don’t get that we have a sincere disagreement. You insist on insult and ridicule.

I’m done with you. Good luck…
[/quote]

and at the bottom it said certified troll since…etc, hum, i guess i would probably agree with at least that much of what they said.

 

[allhers]

Penny, ever hear of a group called Courage? They are people who are homosexual and who are living according to Church teaching, they are against abortions too. Just as the Catholic Church teaches, imagine that, people who listen to the Church on all issues?!

They don’t say, “hey, i am homosexual, accept me and live with my mortal sins”, they say instead, “i am repentant, i choose Jesus above my former life-style”. How do I know this? I know someone who is a part of that group, they don’t even agree with what you are saying.