PRO-LIFE MEANS PRO-SOCIAL JUSTICE by Fr. James Martin, SJ

[LittleFlower378]

No single issue is as important as abortion, it’s just that simple.

 

[Culurecatholic]

No single issue is as important as abortion, it’s just that simple.

LittleFlower, I agree. But the question is, how to end it. The Republicans have thrown bones and we’ve got little. About the biggest was the outlawing of partial-birth-abortion. But abortionists can still kill prenatal human beings using other methods equally horrific. What’s been accomplished? They throw us a bone, while the pro-abortionists still get to gnaw on meat.

Like I’ve posted on other threads here, I know women who’ve been in horrendous situations when pregnant. There was nowhere for them to go. Even the crisis centers couldn’t provide the answers. I would try to talk them out of it (promoting adoption) but it’s not that easy. Walk in their shoes. For those of you who went through this and chose adoption, I said walk in THEIR shoes. No case is the same. These women had no choice (so much for “pro-choice”). I wouldn’t help them get an abortion because of my Atheist morals/ethics, but when it was over, I was there for them as they cried. So what’s your solution?

 

[TCEL]

LittleFlower, I agree. But the question is, how to end it. The Republicans have thrown bones and we’ve got little. About the biggest was the outlawing of partial-birth-abortion. But abortionists can still kill prenatal human beings using other methods equally horrific. What’s been accomplished? They throw us a bone, while the pro-abortionists still get to gnaw on meat.

Like I’ve posted on other threads here, I know women who’ve been in horrendous situations when pregnant. There was nowhere for them to go. Even the crisis centers couldn’t provide the answers. I would try to talk them out of it (promoting adoption) but it’s not that easy. Walk in their shoes. For those of you who went through this and chose adoption, I said walk in THEIR shoes. No case is the same. These women had no choice (so much for “pro-choice”). I wouldn’t help them get an abortion because of my Atheist morals/ethics, but when it was over, I was there for them as they cried. So what’s your solution?

You make it sound like the pro-life movement doesn’t have any kind of counseling initiatives?

 

[TCEL]

No single issue is as important as abortion, it’s just that simple.

As a whole, I think you’re right, and that’s where Shea just gets it wrong. Mother Teresa was intimately involved with human suffering on a scale most of us aren’t, and she said that abortion was the greatest threat to world peace. Paraphrasing, if a mother can kill her child, what is left for us to kill each other? Atheists and such mocked her.

Now, it’s true we can’t just ignore other problems. That’s no solution either. But I’m tired of people insinuating that pro-lifers must fight all these other fights in addition to fighting abortion when right now, fighting abortion is a full-time job with few resources. That’s what I mean when I say it’s a distraction. If one feels compelled to fight hunger, fine. That’s their calling. If one feels compelled to work with victims of abuse, fine. But let’s not waste time quibbling over terms. If I were a social-worker, I wouldn’t feel threatened that my work wasn’t called pro-life, because I know it’s just a quick term used to delineate a position about abortion.

 

[mikekle]

LittleFlower, I agree. But the question is, how to end it. The Republicans have thrown bones and we’ve got little. About the biggest was the outlawing of partial-birth-abortion. But abortionists can still kill prenatal human beings using other methods equally horrific. What’s been accomplished? They throw us a bone, while the pro-abortionists still get to gnaw on meat.

Like I’ve posted on other threads here, I know women who’ve been in horrendous situations when pregnant. There was nowhere for them to go. Even the crisis centers couldn’t provide the answers. I would try to talk them out of it (promoting adoption) but it’s not that easy. Walk in their shoes. For those of you who went through this and chose adoption, I said walk in THEIR shoes. No case is the same. These women had no choice (so much for “pro-choice”). I wouldn’t help them get an abortion because of my Atheist morals/ethics, but when it was over, I was there for them as they cried. So what’s your solution?

Well so far nothing has worked to get rid of abortion, have to ask yourself, how long do you keep trying the same thing if it has never worked in the past?

Abortion is such a serious issue to God imo, that stopping it thru whatever means are possible would likely be a good thing in Gods eyes. I think it definitely fits the description for ‘just war’, but the church is not willing to go to those lengths anymore, nor are most of the lay people.

Point is, you cannot really be faithful to Gods laws and be a model secular citizen at the same time.

 

[Tim_D]

As a whole, I think you’re right, and that’s where Shea just gets it wrong. Mother Teresa was intimately involved with human suffering on a scale most of us aren’t, and she said that abortion was the greatest threat to world peace. Paraphrasing, if a mother can kill her child, what is left for us to kill each other? Atheists and such mocked her.

Well said. There is a big difference between something that is objectively immoral and something that is really a political agenda such as a “living wage.” There is no way to bind the two together under the same banner of “social justice.”

 

[Tim_D]

Well so far nothing has worked to get rid of abortion, have to ask yourself, how long do you keep trying the same thing if it has never worked in the past?

There isn’t going to be anything in the near future that is going to “get rid of abortion” but there has certainly been success in limiting the availability and the access of it. You take your victories where you can get them. The fact that the public seems to be increasingly against the thought of “all abortion, all the time” is a positive sign that in the future we will hopefully see more and more restrictions on it. There is also the fact that the oldest people on the supreme court who are most likely to be replaced next are the liberal justices who range from 80-83 years old. The potential exists for President Trump to replace 2 and possible 3 of them. This in itself is significant. It will be reason enough to have elected Trump over Hillary Clinton who could have locked in a liberal majority for decades.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

New supreme court justice is what will make the tide turn. The majority of Americans are opposed to abortion, however Roe v. wade must be overturned. Only then will killing in the womb stop. ( there will still be illegal killing going on but the courts will punish law breakers.)
President Trump has nominated, Congress will approve by end of March 2017. Praise God.

 

[po18guy]

As to the secular concept of “social justice” - responsible for such atrocities as liberation theology, Monsignor Charles Pope has a timely reminder: Beware the Strangest Idol of All.

 

[Brendan]

Then that isn’t pro life. What it is the fifth commandment “Thou shalt not kill”

Cathechism of the Council*of Trent on the 5th Commandment

Execution Of Criminals

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment* is the preservation and security of human life.

Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.

catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/trentc.htm

The fact, is, Capital Punishment was called for by God Himself in certain circumstances,*so it cannot be said to be against life, as God Himself is the ultimate guide to what constitutes a ‘pro-life’ view than any human authority.

 

[mikekle]

Cathechism of the Council*of Trent on the 5th Commandment

catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/trentc.htm

The fact, is, Capital Punishment was called for by God Himself in certain circumstances,*so it cannot be said to be against life, as God Himself is the ultimate guide to what constitutes a ‘pro-life’ view than any human authority.

Ive always found it to be somewhat curious/ suspicious how ‘beneficial’ certain quotes and biblical interpretations are to the civil/ secular authorities, kind of like when Jesus was asked about taxes and he said “give into Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods”…of course, that was interpreted as give the civil authority what they ask for, in other words…OBEY.

 

[PRmerger]

Then that isn’t pro life. What it is the fifth commandment “Thou shalt not kill”

We understand the Scriptures in the light of the Faith which gave us these Scriptures–the Catholic Faith.

And we understand that killing is sometimes necessary. We kill bacteria. We kill our disordered desires. We kill those attacking our loved ones.

But we must never murder.

That’s how we understand the 5th commandment.

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting article. Maybe it could be called Sola Pro Vita!

Insightful. I like it. Sola Pro Vita vs truly Prolife.

Again, with the insertion of the Solas where none are required.**

As Tim Staples said, paraphrasing: it seems like almost all heresies are borne from the fact that someone has inserted a Sola where none are required.

Why not use the ever useful Catholic Both/And here? The dignity of the unborn AND the dignity of the poor, the refugee, the convicted criminal?

**These guys are so curious to me:

• The Bible ONLY folks.
• The Faith ONLY folks.
• The King James Version of the Bible ONLY folks.
• The Latin ONLY folks
• The Communion Should Be In The Hands ONLY folks
• The Science ONLY folks.
• The English ONLY folks.
• The Intercessory Prayer should be done in Private ONLY folks
• The Jesus is Man ONLY folks.
• The Jesus is God ONLY folks.
• The We should follow the words of Jesus ONLY folks
• The We should follow the words of Paul ONLY folks
• God is spirit ONLY folks

 

[PRmerger]

Ive always found it to be somewhat curious/ suspicious how ‘beneficial’ certain quotes and biblical interpretations are to the civil/ secular authorities, kind of like when Jesus was asked about taxes and he said “give into Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods”…of course, that was interpreted as give the civil authority what they ask for, in other words…OBEY.

Sure. In fact, the NT explicitly says to OBEY YOUR LEADERS.

It’s just not blind obedience.

 

[TCEL]

Insightful. I like it. Sola Pro Vita vs truly Prolife.

Again, with the insertion of the Solas where none are required.**

As Tim Staples said, paraphrasing: it seems like almost all heresies are borne from the fact that someone has inserted a Sola where none are required.

Why not use the ever useful Catholic Both/And here? The dignity of the unborn AND the dignity of the poor, the refugee, the convicted criminal?

**These guys are so curious to me:

• The Bible ONLY folks.
• The Faith ONLY folks.
• The King James Version of the Bible ONLY folks.
• The Latin ONLY folks
• The Communion Should Be In The Hands ONLY folks
• The Science ONLY folks.
• The English ONLY folks.
• The Intercessory Prayer should be done in Private ONLY folks
• The Jesus is Man ONLY folks.
• The Jesus is God ONLY folks.
• The We should follow the words of Jesus ONLY folks
• The We should follow the words of Paul ONLY folks
• God is spirit ONLY folks

I’ve been involved with pro-life work. It’s rather tiresome to hear, “Well, why aren’t you doing something about X,Y, and Z?” I try to explain that pro-lifers often are involved in those other works. How often is this point repeated ad nauseum? Yet still, people slander pro-lifers as only caring about the unborn. “You aren’t truly pro-life unless you’re also doing these other things!” At which point I want to retort, “Well, maybe that’s your calling.” There’s such a thing as distraction from a mission. There’s a political dimension to this debate that becomes more evident when one is in the trenches.

For the record, I’m not a fan of the death penalty. But that isn’t the specific arena I’ve been called to get down and dirty with. I’m not threatened if other people devote their time to other things. Abortion is such an obvious evil that I’m not surprised it attracts so much attention. Hunger also attracts a lot of attention.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve been involved with pro-life work. It’s rather tiresome to hear, “Well, why aren’t you doing something about X,Y, and Z?” I try to explain that pro-lifers often are involved in those other works. How often is this point repeated ad nauseum? Yet still, people slander pro-lifers as only caring about the unborn. “You aren’t truly pro-life unless you’re also doing these other things!” At which point I want to retort, “Well, maybe that’s your calling.” There’s such a thing as distraction from a mission. There’s a political dimension to this debate that becomes more evident when one is in the trenches.

For the record, I’m not a fan of the death penalty. But that isn’t the specific arena I’ve been called to get down and dirty with. I’m not threatened if other people devote their time to other things. Abortion is such an obvious evil that I’m not surprised it attracts so much attention. Hunger also attracts a lot of attention.

I think the point is, if you are prolife with laser vision, ignoring all the other ways women and children, migrants and refugees, disabled suffer, then you* are like the fundamentalist Bible Alone, Communion in the Hand Alone, Paul’s Words Alone folks: inserting an ALONE or a SOLA or an ONLY where none belongs.

*You: a rhetorical you. Not a personal you.

 

[TCEL]

I think the point is, if you are prolife with laser vision, ignoring all the other ways women and children, migrants and refugees, disabled suffer, then you* are like the fundamentalist Bible Alone, Communion in the Hand Alone, Paul’s Words Alone folks: inserting an ALONE or a SOLA or an ONLY where none belongs.

*You: a rhetorical you. Not a personal you.

No, I absolutely agree. I think some of this cross-fire over this debate might be due to the transitioning of generations. It’s just frustrating to see so many good prolifers maligned over these things when they do so much good work. It makes me suspicious that people are simply unaware or have an agenda.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I absolutely agree. I think some of this cross-fire over this debate might be due to the transitioning of generations. It’s just frustrating to see so many good prolifers maligned over these things when they do so much good work. It makes me suspicious that people are simply unaware or have an agenda.

I also think the catalyst for this division was the election. Those Catholics who opposed Trump understood that being prolife was not only declaring that it’s wrong to kill the unborn because, as Trump so cluelessly asserted (paraphrasing): he saw a baby that might have been aborted grow in to a really successful man.

Those Catholics understood prolife as it was meant to be understood: from conception to natural death, including health care, food stamps, aid to poor women, children, migrants, illegal residents, etc etc etc

 

[TCEL]

I also think the catalyst for this division was the election. Those Catholics who opposed Trump understood that being prolife was not only declaring that it’s wrong to kill the unborn because, as Trump so cluelessly asserted (paraphrasing): he saw a baby that might have been aborted grow in to a really successful man.

Those Catholics understood prolife as it was meant to be understood: from conception to natural death, including health care, food stamps, aid to poor women, children, migrants, illegal residents, etc etc etc

Sure, but from my limited political experience, these charges are usually brought up regardless of who is in charge, whether Democrat or Republican.

 

[PRmerger]

Sure, but from my limited political experience, these charges are usually brought up regardless of who is in charge, whether Democrat or Republican.

That has not been my experience.

What other candidate has been identified as “the prolife candidate” but didn’t endorse programs which help women, children, immigrants, refugees, the disabled and also whose life is a “walking-anecdote for the various cultural ideologies and trajectories that the pro-life movement opposes”? (quoting a CAFs poster, Mary Gail)