Pro-life people hate women?

[flyingfish]

That’s funny because I was a very weak baby when I was born. My mother had to leave me in the hospital after giving birth (after she was better.) I had to stay. This is about a week after I was born. My mother tells me she had never been more depressed. I couldn’t talk, walk, or anything. If she had to give her life for me, ya I’m sure she would have. Are you telling me my mom didn’t love me because I couldn’t walk and talk and “think”?! There wasn’t a “real realtionship”?! I think she loved me the most then, right after I was born and she held me in her arms. Thanks:ehh:

I always though parents loved there children to no end, that they would be willing to die for them. I though it was a no-brainer. Hmm, guess I was wrong then.

I am just skeptical that women would be willing to die for their babies, and my evidence for this belief is that so many women are willing to have abortion for reasons having to do with comfort.

There isn’t that much difference between a newborn and a fetus, it wouldn’t make sense to be willing to kill your unborn baby for convenience but be willing to die for a newborn.

It would be different with older children obviously.

 

[Flame4]

I am just skeptical that women would be willing to die for their babies, and my evidence for this belief is that so many women are willing to have abortion for reasons having to do with comfort.

There isn’t that much difference between a newborn and a fetus, it wouldn’t make sense to be willing to kill your unborn baby for convenience but be willing to die for a newborn.

It would be different with older children obviously.

My mom tells me it was better when I could think and talk less. I like expressing my opinions LOL

Your right, there ISN’T much of a difference between a newborn and a fetus. So I guess we should kill a new born if they are annoying the mother. What’s the difference between them? There isn’t much of a difference. So if a new born has rights, why doesn’t the fetus?

 

[Newbie2]

Some of the more hardcore pro-life positions would deny abortions even in the case of a danger to a mother’s health and life. To me that does seem like it devalues women.

And the opposite position devalues an innocent person.

First that doesn’t include other health issues, including mental health.

Still, even ignoring those reasons, denying abortion means placing a mindless fetus ahead of the woman’s quality of life.

Define “mindless”, please.

Really? So many women have abortions, so obviously countless women value not just their lives, but their comforts and quality of life above their babies.

Maybe once they’re born biochemistry kicks in and they would die for their newborns, I have to doubt it though.*** If you’re willing to abort a fetus for comfort, would you really die for a newborn? ***The biochemistry in the brain would have to be really powerful for this to happen.

Maybe once the children are older and talking and thinking, and there is a relationship I could believe it.

Probably not.

You don’t think a woman bonds with their unborn baby and newborn baby until the child is able to talk and “think”??

I am just skeptical that women would be willing to die for their babies, and my evidence for this belief is that so many women are willing to have abortion for reasons having to do with comfort.

There isn’t that much difference between a newborn and a fetus, it wouldn’t make sense to be willing to kill your unborn baby for convenience but be willing to die for a newborn.

It would be different with older children obviously.

That’s the whole problem! Women who are willing to abort for “comfort” probably are not as willing as other mothers to die for their infant children.

But the problem with your perception is that you take that as the norm. I would sumbit that the norm is that most mothers would die for their infant or unborn children, they love them that much.

I’m not a woman, but I bonded with my unborn children right from the get-go. I would have gladly sacrificed my life for theirs, if the choice ever came up, and still would (even though they’re now both obnoxious teenagers )

 

[Flame4]

That’s the whole problem! Women who are willing to abort for “comfort” probably are not as willing as other mothers to die for their infant children.

But the problem with your perception is that you take that as the norm. I would sumbit that the norm is that most mothers would die for their infant or unborn children, they love them that much.

I’m not a woman, but I bonded with my unborn children right from the get-go. I would have gladly sacrificed my life for theirs, if the choice ever came up, and still would (even though they’re now both obnoxious teenagers

Yes Newbie! Thank You. How is it that parents are no longer willing to sacrifice for their children. Don’t we always assume parents love their children and wil die for them?? I know my parents would. I don’t know if I will get married and have children, and I don’t really want to. But if I did I would thank God. I would want to die for that child if I had to. Why? Well first its a person. Second if I consented to sex then its my responsibilty. Have people lost their sense of love for children? :bighanky:

 

[flyingfish]

But the problem with your perception is that you take that as the norm. I would sumbit that the norm is that most mothers would die for their infant or unborn children, they love them that much.

Well, at least 1/3 of American women have had at least one abortion. That’s a pretty significant number.

And most of those abortions aren’t even life or death situations. So I have to strongly doubt the willingness of the average woman to die for a newborn. My bet would be a very small number would, most would choose to live and have another newborn.

 

[Flame4]

Well, at least 1/3 of American women have had at least one abortion. That’s a pretty significant number.

And most of those abortions aren’t even life or death situations. So I have to strongly doubt the willingness of the average woman to die for a newborn. My bet would be a very small number would, most would choose to live and have another newborn.

You know what, You are right. People don’t care about their children or anyone anymore. And that my friend is extremely SAD.

 

[flyingfish]

You know what, You are right. People don’t care about their children or anyone anymore. And that my friend is extremely SAD.

It’s a big leap from unwillingness to die to not caring at all.

 

[CPA2]

Other slogans of the pro-abortionists are, “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament,” and “The prohibition of abortion discriminates against women.” Are you aware that the pro-abortionists took this line of argument to the Supreme Court and lost? It is the pro-abortion forces that have framed abortion as a “woman’s issue.” Women, as a class, are not discriminated against by the pro-life movement. I am a human being, and as a man I have the right to stand up and say “no” to the killing of my fellow human beings.

 

[Flame4]

It’s a big leap from unwillingness to die to not caring at all.

Well who wants to die? Even most people who are suicidal ( and I was for some time by the way) don’t want to die, they want things in their life to change. Even Jesus didn’t WANT to die. But people do it any ways. They die for their children. You said 1/3 of women in America have abortions. YOU said that meant they would be unwilling to die for a newborn. Is that a good thing? NO one wants to die, but people do to save others, etc. I think its sad if women and men don’t to sacrifice for their children, not if they don’t feel like it. You might say, “oh I love that child but I won’t give something up for him.” Mothers and fathers get up in the night to feed their babies. They don’t want to, but they do. Love isn’t a feeling, its a choice. You might feel you love a child but if you don’t act like you do, whats the point?

If people care more about their comfort than a child, how could they **care **about the child. There is nothing wrong in being unwilling. But people sacrifice despite the how they feel. **I think its sad if people won’t sacrifice because of how they feel. **

 

[Rence]

Well, just to clarify, the Catholic teaching is Pro-life, no matter how the baby was conceived- rape, etc. Yes I know its sounds like it hates women. But I’ve always heard people that do get pregnant through rape and have an abortion take longer to get over the rape than the abortion. Of course no one is able to completely get over both, however the abortion hurts more than the rape. So I would assume its helping women.

I never denied the Church’s stance on abortion or pro-life, those are just my opinons. As to the reports that rape taking longer to get over than the abortion, of course it would take longer to get over the rape. No matter what you do, no matter what you choose, it will take a while to recover from the terror of the rape.

I don’t believe abortion hurts more than the rape, and I haven’t seen any evidence to produce proof of that notion. There’s a whole website that has a gallery of women who had abortions and don’t regret it. In addition, I know a handful of women in real life who have had abortions and don’t regret it. Mind you, abortion is not for me, and would never be. But I haven’t seen a single study outside of a prolife organization that proved that claim, and these prolife studies don’t even include other variables such as what the woman’s views on abortion were before she had one, or outside influences that had an impact on her before and after the abortion. Because let’s face it, if you’re opposed to abortion in the first place, and then go ahead and have one because you get scared and cave, you’re going to regret it. Also, if you have pro-lifers working you over, you’re eventually going to start regretting it as you haven’t even recovered from the rape yet. So these so-called studies don’t include variables involved in their claims. I can only go by what I actually see, and I’ve never seen anyone regret it.

Helping people isn’t always giving them the easy way out. If our society was more loving towards these women, the maybe they would be afraid and end up having an abortion. I as a teenager would be scared out of my mind if I got pregnant. I would want people to love me and tell me they are there. However shouldn’t I want them to do what is best in the long run, not what feels good at the time? Thats why my parents always tell me to study instead of watching T.V. They know what will help me in the long run, even if i don’t like it now.

When a woman gets raped, she needs people to be there for her. She needs to be loved and supported. That doesn’t mean she gets a free ticket to do whatever she pleases. It means that those who love her educate her about her options such as adoption, or financial resources, or public aid to help pay for her prental care and birth costs, churches or other resources who will commit to helping her after her baby is born so that she doesn’t fear poverty and homelessness. It means showing her what the Church says about abortion. That doesn’t mean we get to not be loving. But it also means they, by law, have the right to make their decision. You just have to make sure they know all the facts so that they can make a good decision. Getting a woman to not want an abortion is more effective than anything else.

 

[flyingfish]

Well who wants to die? Even most people who are suicidal ( and I was for some time by the way) don’t want to die, they want things in their life to change. Even Jesus didn’t WANT to die. But people do it any ways. They die for their children. You said 1/3 of women in America have abortions. YOU said that meant they would be unwilling to die for a newborn. Is that a good thing? NO one wants to die, but people do to save others, etc. I think its sad if women and men don’t to sacrifice for their children, not if they don’t feel like it. You might say, “oh I love that child but I won’t give something up for him.” Mothers and fathers get up in the night to feed their babies. They don’t want to, but they do. Love isn’t a feeling, its a choice. You might feel you love a child but if you don’t act like you do, whats the point?

If people care more about their comfort than a child, how could they **care **about the child. There is nothing wrong in being unwilling. But people sacrifice despite the how they feel. **I think its sad if people won’t sacrifice because of how they feel. **

I don’t know, I wouldn’t say it’s sad. I guess it’s sad if you’re the child who died because your parent didn’t choose to die in your place. Personally, I don’t think it’s natural to die for other people, but then I don’t have children. Maybe an overpowering instinct would take over me were I to have a child and were its life threatened.

 

[kage_ar]

Well, at least 1/3 of American women have had at least one abortion. That’s a pretty significant number.

And most of those abortions aren’t even life or death situations. So I have to strongly doubt the willingness of the average woman to die for a newborn. My bet would be a very small number would, most would choose to live and have another newborn.

Cite your source for this statistic.

 

[Newbie2]

Cite your source for this statistic.

Yes. I do not believe it’s that high.

 

[Des]

The numbers just don’t back up the rape or life of mother claim. I’m sure even those most hard core of the pro-life crowd would accept a law that banned abortions for all reasons except those that get teh pro-abortion collective panties in a bunch.

***Reasons for terminations: ***

Rape: 0.3%
Incest: 0.03%
Protection of mother’s life: 0.2%

Source: Guttmacher Institute, 2008, July. Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States. guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html.abortion facts

That means 99.47% of abortions are for “social” reasons. Its hard to take seriously the pro-abortion claim that abortion is needed to save lives and spare women the trauma of rape pregnancies when 99.47% of abortions are for “social” reasons.

Amazing isn’t it. How less than one percent of abortions are the biggest reasons that a brainwashed society likes to throw in the abortion debate the most.

 

[Flame4]

I never denied the Church’s stance on abortion or pro-life, those are just my opinons. As to the reports that rape taking longer to get over than the abortion, of course it would take longer to get over the rape. No matter what you do, no matter what you choose, it will take a while to recover from the terror of the rape.

I don’t believe abortion hurts more than the rape, and I haven’t seen any evidence to produce proof of that notion. There’s a whole website that has a gallery of women who had abortions and don’t regret it. In addition, I know a handful of women in real life who have had abortions and don’t regret it. Mind you, abortion is not for me, and would never be. But I haven’t seen a single study outside of a prolife organization that proved that claim, and these prolife studies don’t even include other variables such as what the woman’s views on abortion were before she had one, or outside influences that had an impact on her before and after the abortion. Because let’s face it, if you’re opposed to abortion in the first place, and then go ahead and have one because you get scared and cave, you’re going to regret it. Also, if you have pro-lifers working you over, you’re eventually going to start regretting it as you haven’t even recovered from the rape yet. So these so-called studies don’t include variables involved in their claims. I can only go by what I actually see, and I’ve never seen anyone regret it.

When a woman gets raped, she needs people to be there for her. She needs to be loved and supported. That doesn’t mean she gets a free ticket to do whatever she pleases. It means that those who love her educate her about her options such as adoption, or financial resources, or public aid to help pay for her prental care and birth costs, churches or other resources who will commit to helping her after her baby is born so that she doesn’t fear poverty and homelessness. It means showing her what the Church says about abortion. That doesn’t mean we get to not be loving. But it also means they, by law, have the right to make their decision. You just have to make sure they know all the facts so that they can make a good decision. Getting a woman to not want an abortion is more effective than anything else.

In the end, even if rape does hurt more than abortion (and personally I don’t believe that) it(abortion) still hurts the baby. Yes its hard. But the right thing is often hard. I don’t think we should stop doing the right thing because its hard. Being pro-life doesn’t mean you should hate these women. At its heart, pro-life is aimed at protecting the woman and the child. Yes its not only about stoping abortion but providing love for those in this position. I don’t believe you have to be pro-abortion (or "pro-choice, however you want to spin it) to love a woman who has been raped and has gotten pregnant as a result. I don’t believe you even have to be “open” to abortion.

 

[vera_dicere]

First that doesn’t include other health issues, including mental health.

I noticed it also didn’t include foetal defect, but they’re stats from a pro-abortion organisation so aren’t likely to be up to date anyway.

As for mental health reasons, that’s really just a giant crock. New Zealand, abortion is only legal for “life of mother, foetal defect or incest” (rape not inclusive as rape is hard to prove so the law does not provide for a rape exception).

Yet, every year 98% of our approx. 18,000 abortions are for “mental health” reasons. We all know its BS, the Abortion Supervisory Committee, the group entrusted with ensuring abortions are within the letter of the law even came out and said abortion was essentially on demand. Our certifying consultants, the people who a-okay the abortions say the same thing.

And really, what does that say about a society, if the only way we can care for a woman’s mental health is to kill her own child?

Oh, and there’s this doozey: bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/193/6/444

The guy who did the study is pro-abortion. He has made it clear on numerous occasions that he started the study to disprove the myth that Lifers claim abortion causes mental health quirks.

Abortion actually does more damage to a woman’s mental health then it does protecting it.

Still, even ignoring those reasons, denying abortion means placing a mindless fetus ahead of the woman’s quality of life.

The new born is “mindless”, should we be able to snuff them because it could interfer with the woman’s quality of life?

And its not about placing one life above the other, its about both lives being equal, both lives being protected and acknowledged as human beings.

At the end of the day we’re talking about a human being being denied a possible 80 years of life because our ill gotten society won’t step up and assist women who are in “crisis” for 9 months…

 

[Rence]

I don’t think the pro-life movement would be satisfied with the abolition of abortion except in the cases of rape or danger to the woman’s life. I could be mistaken though, since it’s such a small and insignificant percentage of abortions being done. I still think they would pursue aboltion of all abortions without exception.

And about birth control: There are those on this forum who even want birth control pills to be abolished along with abortion. I don’t think they would be satisfied with the abolition of abortion except for the cases of rape or danger to the woman’s life. I’d wager that they would the continue to pursue abolition of abortion in all cases and move on towards abolition of contraceptives as well.

 

[vera_dicere]

I have to respectfully disagree with you Vera. I used to be pro-life until I was bombarded by “so what if a woman is raped” and “it doesn’t matter if she is raped, she has to have the baby anyway”, and “you’re a pro-death person, if a woman is raped and has an abortion (or heck, even takes Plan B in the ER), she is worse than her rapist ever is”, and “it should be outright outlawed, rape isn’t an excuse”. So no, I don’t think that would be acceptable to pro-lifers, which has pushed me to the pro-choice side. A rape victim should not be subject to pro-lifers.

You ever think perhaps the pro-life maniacs who behave in such manner are simply responding in kind to the pro-abortion mindset that brought up the rape excuse in the first place?

There are morons, idiots and extremists on both sides of the fence. I have to say I find it rather complexing, if not a sad indication of an individuals’ principals that they can be so easily swayed on an issue such as the wanton destruction of a human being based on the behaviours of those who support x or y. You should be pro-choice or pro-life based on your opinion of the foetus and her mother, not on the rare gaggle of idiots who can be found in both camps.

I’m a “no exceptions” pro-lifer, but I’m also a realist. The stats do not support the “abort all rape pregnancies” idea. The stats do not support maternal health risks, they do not support foetal defects. These hard cases are peddled as being the norm, and those pro-lifers who cave to them and switch sides are in dire need of an education as to both the numbers and the reality of the situations they’re supporting.

To use an example, Ireland has the lowest maternal mortality rate in the world, and yet, abortion is illegal.

Victims vs. Victors a study looking at women who fell pregnant to rape, found that the majority did not abort, and those that did, the majority of which reported they felt pressured.

Frankly, we should focus on teh 98% odd abortions, leave the rape excuse, the foetal defects, the maternal health risks in law for abortions to keep the moderates and uneducated happy. I won’t be happy until there are no abortions, but if I had to choose between 1.2 million abortions and 10,000 abortions, it really is all about the numbers.

Well, I’m sure that if it wasn’t taken to such extremes, the pro-life movement would have had Roe vs. Wade overturned by now. But they want to force rape victims to be forced to be pregnant, they want to abolish birth control, they want condoms taken off the shelves, they want everyone to follow the Catholic rules of abstinence, and they’re pushing the people who are “unsure” or on the fence, to the other side. And until they stop being so rigid with other peoples’ lives, I doubt it ever will be.

There’s more to it then just the extremists banging their drums that has kept Roe in place. To be brutally honest, I think the pro-life movement needs a serious clean out. Get rid of the morons who support the likes of Roeder, and take a careful look at the numbers. Its not going to be a clean sweep. If we want abortion banned we have to start gradually, we have to change hearts and minds and educate the public.

The public is already swayed towards the pro-life mindset, another generation or so and we’re bound to see Roe in the same pile of shamefully recalled leglisation such as slavery and women not having the right to vote.

 

[Flame4]

I don’t think the pro-life movement would be satisfied with the abolition of abortion except in the cases of rape or danger to the woman’s life. I could be mistaken though, since it’s such a small and insignificant percentage of abortions being done. I still think they would pursue aboltion of all abortions without exception.

And about birth control: There are those on this forum who even want birth control pills to be abolished along with abortion. I don’t think they would be satisfied with the abolition of abortion except for the cases of rape or danger to the woman’s life. I’d wager that they would the continue to pursue abolition of abortion in all cases and move on towards abolition of contraceptives as well.

We can only be satisfied with all these things banned. Will it happen. NO, I highly doubt it will. However limiting abortion is better than nothing. Should we stop there? Does the truth stop there? No. So I won’t be “satisfied” but its not about my satisfaction or anyone elses (except God.) It about what is right, that is what is acceptable to God. The thing is, the fetus doesn’t stop being a fetus because of how it is created. It is the same as any fetus. So if one has rights, why doesn’t the other. If one is a person, why isn’t the other one. Nothing is different biologically. Nothing IT did. So it would be illogical to support life except in theh cases of rape, etc.

 

[Flame4]

I don’t know, I wouldn’t say it’s sad. I guess it’s sad if you’re the child who died because your parent didn’t choose to die in your place. Personally, I don’t think it’s natural to die for other people, but then I don’t have children. Maybe an overpowering instinct would take over me were I to have a child and were its life threatened.

Well, I think its sad people are selfish and unloving. Are you seriously saying parents won’t die for their children. Are you saying parents won’t give up comfort for the life of their child. I think its sad that people don’t care. You said there is a long jump from unwillingness to not caring. It not that people are unwilling, its that they don’t care. The contempt for life shows this. If this isn’t sad, I don’t know what is.