Pro life reponse to opening economy

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Don’t kill people by opening the economy too soon. The problem dissapears…

Also, ban cigarettes and high sugar foods, and bacon. Because they all kill WAAAAAY more people than the virus.
(yea, I know, you don’t choose the virus you choose cigarettes. But are we talking about choices and fine rhetorical lines, or are we really concerned with lives? Cause if you are really concerned about human life, abortion, cigarettes, distracted driving, on and on, all make the virus seem like a sniffle. )

Some of the causes of death you mentioned are indeed self inflicted. So they are choices. If you want to smoke then go for it. But we severely restrict where you can smoke so that it doesn’t harm others. You can’t even smoke in the street near me and it’s even banned on the beach. We heavily punish those who drink and drive to try to pevent harm to others (I’m in favour of a zero alcohol limit).

High sugar foods and alcohol, well…I’m in favour of higher taxes to restrict consumption. But that’s a debatable position. Nanny state arguments have some traction. But if you want bacon with maple syrup every morning swilled down with a litre of Coke then Darwinism kicks in. Your idiotic behaviour will be removed from the gene pool. Go for it.

But there’s no choice when it comes to the virus. It’s not that people are saying ‘I’m prepared to take the risk’. What they are actually saying is ‘I’m prepared for you to take the risk’. It’s like drink driving. ‘It’s my life - I’ll take that chance’. If that were the case then get lit up, friend and go for it. But you’re not just risking your life. You’re risking the lives of others as well.

Will there be relatively short term financial pain? Yeah. There will. We’ll take a hit. And maybe when we come out the other side we can have a conversation about what’s important to us all. When you have sports stars refusing to take a wage cut even though there are no games being played and they earn more in a week then most people earn in a year and billionaire owners of companies are looking for government financial help when they pay next to nothing in taxes and you compare those guys with badly paid front line health workers who are working a hundred hours a week and risking their lives for our benefit then it focuses the mind somewhat.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Poverty is very bad, but those in poverty will at least still be alive. One’s money, home, car, and other material possessions can be lost and regained, but one’s life is sacred and must not be needlessly sacrificed for jobs, the economy, and the ideologically political concerns of leaders.

We are NOT, as the President so insensitively said, “warriors” in the fight to open the economy, with the implication that some of us must die. We do NOT need to LIBERATE our state government. What an instigator Trump is! And some of those “good people,” as Trump calls them, were carrying Confederate flags and wearing swastikas, apart from huddling together without protective masks. No wonder the death rate is rising, as Trump himself admits, in rural areas and small towns now.

 

[Victoria33]

To the OP, some countries have had very limited shutdowns, some sources would say they did not really shut down as with Taiwan and South Korea… yet, they have effectively combated the virus.

Some say Sweden too, has combated the virus effectively.

So, opening the economy doesn’t really mean “death” as some would say. “Shutting down” does not mean the most effective solution.

 

[Weave]

You know poverty ends in death right?

 

[Freddy]

You know poverty ends in death right?

Not a great promo for The American Way.

 

[JulianN]

So…I figure when people accuse us of killing people by opening economy but we are against abortion…best way to articulate the difference …

You explain to them that pro-life people are not in favor of “opening the economy” until infectious disease experts say it’s safe to do so.

 

[blackforest]

So…I figure when people accuse us of killing people by opening economy but we are against abortion…best way to articulate the difference …

There’s really no black and white answer, and I don’t see whether or how to reopen as a black and white issue. Very, very complex and difficult decisions have to go into this process.

The intent of abortion is to take the life of a defenseless human being. Every. Single. Time.

Opening the economy, with all of its risks and benefits, is not on the same moral plain as deliberately killing an unborn human. Unlike abortion, COVID-19 exposure doesn’t kill every single person coming in contact with it. Unlike fetuses and embryos, born people can voluntarily continue to self-quarantine.

Are these the kinds of differences you’re seeking?

 

[Annie]

Poverty is very bad, but those in poverty will at least still be alive.

Will there be relatively short term financial pain?

I just watched a man interview Beto O’Rourke on a mainstream news channel, and they were talking about the fact that many are facing hunger, parents are waiting in 3 mile long lines of cars (environment!!!) to get food from a food bank, and the bad consequences for young children when they experience malnourishment, etc.

I am not for willy-nilly opening things up here, but I am against a lack of recognition that there are people truly suffering from the economic consequences.

One’s money, home, car, and other material possessions can be lost and regained,

It is not that easy to regain houses and cars and other material possessions. There are people who will never recover financially from this. Older people do not have time to regain what they had set aside for their old age, and it was already hard for them to get jobs.

Yes, we need to be careful about reopening the economy, but we really do need to do it and not be blithe about the financial suffering of others.

 

[Canvas]

To the OP, some countries have had very limited shutdowns, some sources would say they did not really shut down as with Taiwan and South Korea… yet, they have effectively combated the virus.

That is because Taiwan and South Korea had very rapid and competent responses to the pandemic threat. They very rapidly contained outbreaks, and kept control of the situation and managed to prevent out of control community spread.

Sweden is much more controversial. Both sides of the debate can claim Sweden as evidence for the effectiveness of one strategy vs. another. For instance, Sweden has significantly more per capita deaths than next door Norway or Denmark had with shutdowns.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I am not being blithe about poverty and losing material possessions. I have personally experienced poverty in my younger years, and I know of someone in California who lost his house in the wildfires a few years ago but managed to recover. Insofar as older people are concerned, they are the ones most at risk of dying from the virus, so if the reopening is not done very carefully, they have more to lose than the finances set aside for their old age.

 

[Victoria33]

That is because Taiwan and South Korea had very rapid and competent responses to the pandemic threat. They very rapidly contained outbreaks, and kept control of the situation and managed to prevent out of control community spread.

I don’t think it is totally because of the early responses for South Korea, SK was an early hotspot but they were able to bring down the spread. A “cult” spread it and at first, South Korea had very many cases.

South Korean 'Cult' Linked to Coronavirus Outbreak

The group is an offshoot of Christianity founded in 1984 by a man claiming to be a prophet sent by Jesus Christ

time.com

Sect is at center of a surge of coronavirus cases in South Korea - Los Angeles Times

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/26/asia/shincheonji-south-korea-hnk-intl/index.html

And all of this does not negate the fact, that these countries went back to work pretty quickly.

 

[Emeraldlady]

So…I figure when people accuse us of killing people by opening economy but we are against abortion…best way to articulate the difference …

Social justice means advocating for government and charitable assistance for those suffering impoverished conditions due to the pandemic while the experts formulate a reopening plan that reflects the dignity of all people. That’s probably the most unconditionally prolife approach.

 

[Annie]

And your friend got insurance money to rebuild, didn’t he? There is no insurance for not being able to pay your rent or mortgage (and a lot of older people have a second mortgage, frequently to pay for their children’s college.

I went on to say that we should reopen judiciously; I am not one of those who say, just throw the doors open or something like that. But there are people even on this forum who seem to think that the government is taking care of everyone so everyone will be fine and we don’t have to worry about anyone.

We need to have balance. Have some sympathy for those whose lives are being destroyed by the shutdown as well as those who are vulnerable to the virus.

 

[Jimbo]

There is a huge difference.

Abortion: The direct killing of a human life; frequently so as not to be burdened by responsibility for that life in some fashion.

Opening the economy: Allowing, in phased, careful fashion, the gradual legalization of economic traffic while recognizing the risk of infection might cause increased sickness and death for those who choose to take that risk.

Abortion always and every time means there will be a death, and that this death is intended as the end result of the abortion.

Opening up the economy means there is a greater risk for death, but the end intention of opening up the economy isn’t death, it’s an attempt to restore the dignity of work and self determination to the population as well as save assets that can be useful in this, and future pandemics going forward.

Further, it can be done in such a way as to minimize death. In my area there are 6 infections in the hospital in a tri-country area; but the lockdown is killing primary care offices and is an existential threat to the hospital.

Which brings me to a final point. Those who oppose any loosening of restrictions in favor of ‘life’ are ignoring the fact that the lockdown will cost lives and capacity to save lives too. There are people who are dying because they are avoiding other care (heart ablations, stroke symptoms, etc.) for fear of getting COVID while we have empty beds. Our hospital has had numerous public safety announcements because we’ve had too many people coming in too sick to save because they put off treatment for stroke and heart attack symptoms due to COVID fears.

Don’t let us re-open, and we might lose medical care, including critical care, capacity. Don’t let us re-open and people who avoid care may continue to die.

Should it be done carefully and slowly to avoid flare ups? Absolutely! Should heavily infected areas not do it yet? They probably shouldn’t!

There is a WORLD of difference, and re-opening isn’t anti-life. This is a false assumption, and has turned quite often into a political talking point.

 

[o_mlly]

So…I figure when people accuse us of killing people by opening economy but we are against abortion…best way to articulate the difference …

The virus is a physical evil; direct abortion is a moral evil. We must learn to live with the former (we all have to die from something); we will be liable to God for the latter. God is not offended by physical evils but He is when we directly kill innocent persons.

 

[Jimbo]

In short, there really isn’t a one size fits all answer; those charged with deciding these things have to take all the variables into account and decide based on facts and science rather than emotion, and based on the best overall strategy for everyone as a group, not just the extreme cases.

Amen.

Areas of low infection that the public health experts say can open up should be allowed to do so. If they cannot then they should stay closed.

 

[Jimbo]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/06/economy/april-jobs-report-2020/index.html

 

[Jimbo]

Will there be relatively short term financial pain?

This isn’t the issue. It’s not ‘BooHoo Johnny can’t buy a new car this year’. It’s ‘Oh Crap Johnny lost his job and his healthcare and his ability to know he can make the payments on his modest house’.

First, for the most part, going to work is risking getting yourself sick. If you get sick you might, during the incubation period, get others sick. But with a glove and masks that can be minimized.

Second, it isn’t sports stars that I care about. It’s people who are having their long term prognisis for a disease harmed because they aren’t getting care. It’s people who aren’t getting treated for ablations or an heart condition that is sorta-kinda stable but you never know. It’s people who are staying home with chest pains or stroke symptoms and only coming in when the collapse because of COVID fears; but by then its too late. We’re seeing that in my community now. It’s not easy on the EMS people to lose those they might have saved had they been called earlier.

Third; we are damaging the very infrastructure we need to be able to fight the virus. This isn’t ‘hey let the kids out to party woohooo! open the economy!’. It’s ‘We need a basic level of economic activity, and we are below that, and this will cause issues for us that will affect lives. We need to get back to the basic level as quickly, but as carefully, as we can’.

‘When rural hospitals close, people die,’ Hillsdale Hospital CEO says in asking Gov. Whitmer to allow elective procedures

The hospital wants elective surgeries to be allowed again.

www.mlive.com

This isn’t a one off thing. I’ve spoken to rural primary care docs who are terrified they may have to close up shop. If that happens they likely move away and the rural area loses medical capacity. Our hospital is in trouble too. Not ‘bad quarter’ trouble. Existential trouble.

My friend is a hairdresser. She’s almost bankrupt. That happens she loses her home. She wants to go back with a glove and mask and work. She’s not a drunk driver.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Yes, commercial op ed style news (basically if it is on cable TV 24/7) they need grabby headlines. This article is speculation, not a report. I personally know exactly two people who have lost the paying job since this began, both are independent contractors. Everyone else I know (online or in real life) is working from home, not working but still being paid or simply still working same as before.

Businesses here all have “now hiring” signs, they cannot get people to apply!

It’s people who are having their long term prognisis for a disease harmed because they aren’t getting care. It’s people who aren’t getting treated for ablations or an heart condition that is sorta-kinda stable but you never know

You know people who are not receiving medical treatment? Can you send me the links?

I do half of my volunteer work around the heart community, people with advanced heart failure, all around the US. They are getting care, maybe a television instead of regular clinic check up, but, ablation, stints, implants and I can think of 3 people I know who have received their new heart since middle of March.

I’ve spoken to rural primary care docs who are terrified they may have to close up shop.

It is good that the crisis with rural hospitals and clinics is coming to national attention. This did not begin with COVID, it is something that needs attention!

My friend is a hairdresser. She’s almost bankrupt

I hope she applied for the SBA loans and for the independent contractor unemployment available now!

 

[Jimbo]

Yes, commercial op ed style news (basically if it is on cable TV 24/7) they need grabby headlines. This article is speculation, not a report. I personally know exactly two people who have lost the paying job since this began, both are independent contractors. Everyone else I know (online or in real life) is working from home, not working but still being paid or simply still working same as before.

We’ll see. This isn’t something I’m seeing in a one off fashion. I’m seeing it across multiple news outlets. NPR was reporting 14% last week. It is unlikely it’s being made up.

You know people who are not receiving medical treatment? Can you send me the links?

I do half of my volunteer work around the heart community, people with advanced heart failure, all around the US. They are getting care, maybe a television instead of regular clinic check up, but, ablation, stints, implants and I can think of 3 people I know who have received their new heart since middle of March.

I don’t have links. I work at a rural hospital. Our Cardiac offices were closed and are just opening up. Do something or die surgeries were still happening, but ablations, unstable angina, etc. were not. Non chemo infusions were not. That affects lives.