Pro life reponse to opening economy

[Jimbo]

It is good that the crisis with rural hospitals and clinics is coming to national attention. This did not begin with COVID, it is something that needs attention!

True. But that doesn’t make the COVID situation any less dire. If we wait to talk about it and don’t let those rural hospitals (and, honestly, non rural hospitals; two Wayne county hospitals in SE Michigan have let thousands go in furloughs) open to the point that THEY feel is safe and acceptable, then you won’t have to worry about those hospitals. They won’t be there to worry about.

Our hospital has 5 COVID Patients in it, down from a high of 17 last month. We had 150 people tested positive out of 5000 tested in the community.

There is zero reason we shouldn’t be allowed to slowly open. If you choose to continue to stay home, as honestly I will, that’s fine. But there isn’t a reason a hospital shouldn’t be allowed to start offering services again if they feel they safely can; particularly services that have a great deal of infection control right out of the gate; like a surgery.

I hope she applied for the SBA loans and for the independent contractor unemployment available now!

Yup. Denied. Then re-applied. Approved. Then waiting. She was approved 3-4 weeks ago and hasn’t seen any money. There is zero reason she shouldn’t be allowed to work with proper safety gear in an area with very limited infections.

This isn’t the bubonic plague or aids with a massive mortality rate. Most people will get it and be fine, but we want to flatten the curve so our medical facilities can handle the minority who get seriously ill. I’m not saying we go off to have block parties all the time. But we’ve seen countries (China, Sweden) start to re-open slowly and carefully, or carefully close things down, and they are okay. And for areas where the curve is so flat that the ED’s and critical care census went DOWN they should be allowed to open up a bit to give needed care. Their curve is already flat. To not do so is neither scientific or logical.

We can re-open slowly and carefully, and monitor. If it’s okay, we do a little more. If it’s not, we do a little less.

Sadly, personally I’m seeing too much COVID fear that keeps some from getting emergent treatment they need; and some who, because they hate the President (whom I didn’t vote for) and because he is for opening up associate opening up with him; and so oppose it.

Opening up the economy slowly and carefully isn’t a Trump thing. It isn’t valuing money over lives. It isn’t the direct killing of people. It’s an attempt to do the best for the most people while accepting some risk.

My Mom is an 85 year old cancer survivor. She’s tough. I love her very much. I don’t want anything to happen to her. But she’s also careful, and allowing a slow open won’t really increase her risk. And she’s fine with it.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Will there be relatively short term financial pain?

This isn’t the issue. It’s not ‘BooHoo Johnny can’t buy a new car this year’. It’s ‘Oh Crap Johnny lost his job and his healthcare and his ability to know he can make the payments on his modest house’.

First, from what I’ve seen, people don’t seem to be that keen on masks and gloves. Have you even seen Pence or Trump wearing one? Even when walking around a hospital? The people who seem to be really keen to open everything up again seem more likely to be carrying guns…

Just get the virus under control and open up gradually.

Secondly, people with needs other than the illness causd by the virus need the virus under control because if it isn’t, beds are going to be taken up by those with it. Health care workers are going to be tied up trying to keep those alive rather than spending time on patients with longer term needs. This is the very reason why countries have shut down. To prevent hospitals being overrun.

Third, the infrastructure isn’t being damaged. It’s gone into cold storage. Everybody waits until the danger is over and the we can start up everything again. Slowly. And yes, people will lose their jobs. But if you haven’t got systems in place to help those people then you’ll need to address that when this is over.

Here in Australia the government is helping to pay the wages of those being laid off. They are pouring money into the system to help those who have actually lost their jobs. They are allowing people to access superannnuation payments (which are a compulsory self-contribution to your personal retirement fund (and the government also pays into it)) which is not normally allowed. It’s astonishing what can be done when it needs to be done.

We’ve just got a handful of new cases each day and we’re still under lockdown. NZ has no cases and they’re just thinking about ending their lockdown.

Do it slowly. Do it carefully. And stay safe and healthy.

 

[Ignatius]

These Are the Leading Causes of Death in the U.S.

• Abortion.
• Heart disease.
• Cancer.
• Septicemia.

Also Car accidents kill many more people, if they were honest about that argument they would be fighting to end those major causes of death.

 

[dochawk]

Don’t kill people by opening the economy too soon. The problem dissapears…

You don’t seriously believe that the lost production won’t result in deaths, do you? Or the consequent poverty? Or deleted medical treatment? Or . . .

The only word that might describe such a belief that is consistent with usage policies on CA is “gullible”, which isn’t nearly strong enough.

It’s not a dollars/lives tradeoff; it is lives/lives, and we don’t know how many each way . . .

Poverty is very bad, but those in poverty will at least still be alive.

That is naive, at best.

The change in nutrition alone will lead to both short and long term deaths.

a couple of notes:

1. we’re already seeing shutdowns of parts of the food supply chain, and spot meat shortages in parts of the country. There are also issues about how the crops are going to be picked, given the large portion of that force that gets seasonal visas to enter the US to do it.
2. while writing this, we learned that some in-laws are buying a couple of hogs, cheap, from an overwhelmed slaughterhouse. They can do that, there, but this isn’t an option in the city.
3. Nevada finally chose a contractor last week, and expects to, finally, start taking applications for expanded unemployment in mid May. I’ve been able to juggle money, but I only have so much in reserve, and so many others don’t.

People should be as angry at the ChiCom dictatorshiup, CCP, or whatever you want to call it as our grandparents and great-grandparents were over Pearl Harbor. The spread of the ChiCom-2/Covid-19/Wuhan virus was directly and proximately caused by the willful withholding of information and refraining from measures that it took to save face to support its agenda of world domination, really no different than the 1941 sneak attack for the same agenda.

 

[Freddy]

People should be as angry at the ChiCom dictatorshiup, CCP, or whatever you want to call it as our grandparents and great-grandparents were over Pearl Harbor. The spread of the ChiCom-2/Covid-19/Wuhan virus was directly and proximately caused by the willful withholding of information and refraining from measures that it took to save face to support its agenda of world domination, really no different than the 1941 sneak attack for the same agenda.

Please don’t tell me that you think the Chinese attacked Pearl Harbour. Please tell me that that was just a clumsy segueway.

Either way, you should have put that comment on the top of your post so that I knew I wouldn’t have to have read the rest of it.

 

[dochawk]

Please don’t tell me that you think the Chinese attacked Pearl Harbour. Please tell me that that was just a clumsy segueway.

please don’t tell me that you think that English grammar implies that the culpable party from one event carries over to the second event mentioned, for which every even semi-educated american knows who the responsible party was.

For those that don’t meet that standard: “People should be as angry at the ChiCom dictatorship for the reckless endangerment of the rest of the world, while fully knowing the risks thereof, as part of their publicly stated plan of world domination, as our grandparents and great-grandparents were angry about the Japanese empire’s sneak attack in 1941, for a similarly stated (but somewhat less far-reaching) plan of regional domination.”

But the first is a better statement.

Either way, you should have put that comment on the top of your post so that I knew I wouldn’t have to have read the rest of it.

Your difficulties with grammar or logic in no way suggest a change in order of what I wrote.

 

[Freddy]

“People should be as angry at the ChiCom dictatorship for the reckless endangerment of the rest of the world, while fully knowing the risks thereof, as part of their publicly stated plan of world domination, as our grandparents and great-grandparents were angry about the Japanese empire’s sneak attack in 1941, for a similarly stated (but somewhat less far-reaching) plan of regional domination.”

I’m sorry, but it’s just as clumsy. And still incoherent. But here’s your chance to quote the Chinese government’s ‘publicly stated plan of world domination’. If it’s in the public domain, you should be able to find it quite easily.

 

[dochawk]

Maybe you can quote it and link to where you got it from.

Err, reading the whole spectrum of news, rather than my preferred ideology, daily for decades.

No, if you didn’t find it with that, you won’t understand if I spoon feed you, either.

. Although to be honest I think you were using hyperbole in a manner to add weight to your belief that the virus is a deliberately conceived plan by the Chinese to be compared to the bombing of Pearl Harbour and don’t actually have such a quote.

Uh, wow.

Welcome to earth.

Sky is blue, and that is most definitely not what I believe, nor is there anything I’ve written here or anywhere else that would allow a reasonable person to draw such a conclusion.

The ChiCom do plan, expect, and work towards a world in which China is the undisputed leading power. (including a specific country in this manner, rather than global, is indeed variation from orthodox marxist-leninism).

Suggesting that I think that the release was deliberate is ignorant and offensive, and not supported by anything in the real world.

Of course, reading what I wrote, rather than whatever you’re doing, would again come to their refusal of access to the rest of the world, denial of what they actually knew to be true about transmission for an extended period (i.e., the human to human transmission), lying about the extent of infection and spread, lying about the number of deaths, all to save face and preserve their aspiration of Chinese world leadership, and all with the knowledge that withholding that information would endanger hundreds of thousands of lives throughout the rest of the world.

Again, reading comprehension, and a semi-adequate knowledge of history, rather than ideology, allows one to evaluate a situation.

In fact, I know you don’t.

Not only I don’t, but no reasonable person would think that I thought such a thing . . .

There is a term, usually attributed to Lenin but not properly sourced, for people welling to assume the goodwill and good intention of communist . . .

and with that, I’m done with this. There is no useful or intelligent discussion to be had here.

 

[Freddy]

Knowing that is kind of part of the preparation expected before jumping into adult conversation.

It didn’t take 20 seconds.

To help you with your education, include “2025” as a keyword.

It would be better, though, to start your education with events a full century ago, and the stated purpose of every single Communist government in world history . . .

Sorry, I couldn’t find anything that would associate itself with a Chinese government 'publicly stated plan of world domination’. Maybe you can quote it and link to where you got it from. Although to be honest I think you were using hyperbole in a manner to add weight to your belief that the virus is a deliberately conceived plan by the Chinese to be compared to the bombing of Pearl Harbour and don’t actually have such a quote.

In fact, I know you don’t.

 

[Jimbo]

Third, the infrastructure isn’t being damaged. It’s gone into cold storage. Everybody waits until the danger is over and the we can start up everything again.

I’m totally for slowly and carefully.

Where I work we are doing things step by step and seeing how it goes. I do disagree with the ‘infrastructure going into cold storage’ though. That’s not true for hospitals and businesses here in the US. Many are just ‘going’. In my community unless either massive cash payments directly to the hospitals happen (they haven’t, not in the quantity needed) we will lose infrastructure (non money making ventures will close; maternity, ED and ICU capacity will shrink, the ability to do surgeries locally will shrink) we’ll also have a brain drain. If Dr. X can’t make a living here, she’ll leave.

Secondly, people with needs other than the illness causd by the virus need the virus under control because if it isn’t, beds are going to be taken up by those with it.

Yes, that is the whole reason for flattening the curve. But if you are in a situation where people are not getting care and the hospital is empty, you need go get those people the care they need.

I’m not for just opening up like nothing happened.

I’m 100% for slowly re-opening. But we need to have some urgency. It’s not wrong to say ‘Let’s do this carefully, but as quickly as we can so people’s lives aren’t devestated’.

I also frankly get angry at the ‘If we re-open lives are lost, blood will be on your hands!’ people. They blatantly ignore the lives their policies lose or disrupt. Both sides need to be reasonable.

 

[Autumnfa]

The difference is clear we are voicing for the unborn for people who have no voice yet. To give them a chance to live a full life. Opening up the boarders are something that should be closed to be honest but America’s income is on traveling so it’s a sticky situation.

 

[Humility]

Everybody posting about Covid-19 on this site should read what this man has to say about it: https://gerardnadal.com He is a pro-life scientist and was a guest on the Drew Mariani show on Relevant Radio yesterday.

 

[Cathoholic]

Humility. I see you posted the same basic issue twice (only once to me) so I thought I would answer it twice too.

You asked me to look at your article (here).

You should read the second post on this blog

From your article . . . .

DR. NADAL: Few people understand what herd immunity is . . .

But I am not saying Sweden should not be locked down because of herd immunity.

I am saying we should not be locked down, becuase it causes economic harm. In some cases to the point of starvation, losing your job, losing your home, etc.

We were told the purpose of the lockdown was to “flatten the curve” so as to not break the healthcare system.

This obviously was false or incomplete.

There are two ways to get to herd immunity. The first is you simply let all the members get diseased. The weak die and the survivors produce antibodies . . .

This is nonsense.

Nobody is suggesting allowing the weak to die.

The weak right now are dying!
The average age of people dying with corona virus is virtually identical to the average age of people dying without corona virus.

If holing-up in hibernation is so great (despite all these deaths WITH lockdowns) just have the weak continue hibernating.

Dr. Nadal: Sorry to interrupt, but Anders Tegnell, chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency has said that they are mere weeks away from achieving herd immunity. That’s a good thing, right?

DR. NADAL: Wrong. Dead Wrong. As of April 28, that was Tegnell’s position. At that time about 25% of Sweden had been infected, again, with a 12% case fatality rate (CFR). In a country of 10.23 million people, another 50% would need to be infected at a minimum to reach herd immunity. That’s another 5 million people. At 12% CFR, that means 600,000 additional dead on the way to herd immunity. Tell me how you think that represents “prevention”.

Dr. Nadal has built-in assumptions here.

Nadal is assuming the 12% CFR is not associated with selective testing.

If you (and he) REALLY think Sweden will have 600,000 deaths from corona virus in the following weeks, I will keep this thread open, and we can see.

He is assuming this 12.5% CFR is equivalent to a 12.5% death rate of the general population . . . All within weeks (which was the context of the question to himself).

Dr. Fauci . . . is to protect the nation from infectious disease. You don’t protect people from disease by sitting back and watching all the susceptible members of society die off from it.

Nobody is suggesting anybody "sit back and “watch all the susceptible members of society die”.

Allow them to choose hibernation for themselves if they want.

That’s what we have NOW you know.
Is what we are doing NOW “watching all the susceptible members of society die”??
(If it is, WHY are we doing it?)

I saw so many things wrong with Dr. Nadal’s questions to himself, I wasn’t sure where to begin.

These are but a sampling of my criticisms of his questions to himself.

 

[Wesrock]

According to the worst predictions, 99 out of 100 of us will survive.

Did you just brush off 3 million Americans dying as being negligible?

Just going by the way you worded your statement.

 

[o_mlly]

After the Fall and expelled from the Garden, Adam and Eve faced disease and death. What hope for humanity if they decided that life outside the Garden was just too risky and “locked” themselves down, so to speak? Even in their nakedness, God clothed them in skins after their sin. They lost the protection of the Garden but not the protection of Divine Providence. Neither have we.

 

[Humility]

You’re also not supposed to test God.

 

[Humility]

Some people are against abortion but also think reopening the economy right now is not a very pro-life thing to do. Many of those people are Catholics.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Some people are against abortion but also think reopening the economy right now IS a very pro-life thing to do. Many of those people are Catholics.

 

[JoeFreedom]

I’m too tired of trying to explain this anymore…

 

[Funvod]

I don’t think it is totally because of the early responses for South Korea,

I’m currently in South Korea and I definitely think it was due to the government’s response to the situation. They were really aggressive about testing and quarantining, and it worked out OK in the end. That’s how the country was able to operate while staying open-ish.