Correct.
But it is also implied that it’s members, that likewise approve of the death penalty, have an inconsistent view.
Perhaps I am mistaken in reading that the inconsistency is the support of the death penalty?
Perhaps billsannie can clarify.
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But it is also implied that it’s members, that likewise approve of the death penalty, have an inconsistent view.
Perhaps billsannie can clarify.
O
openmind77
Guest
A fetus can only be said to be a human, if it has a human soul. Merely because it is biologically living and has some human organs/features does not mean ensoulment has taken place. Nobody (at least nobody on earth) knows exactly at what point in the embryo’s development does this ensoulment takes place.
Only some one like the Christ can tell us at point that takes place. Until we know for sure, the pregnant woman speaks for both the fetus and her own self.
As long as we do not know, we have no right to pass judgment or condemn the woman who seeks to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
Perhaps we should release all of the murderers from our prisons.
After all, there is absolutely no scientific evidence that the people they killed had a soul.
O
openmind77
Guest
Hello rolling eyes, I did not ask for a scientific proof of the existing of a soul in the fetus. We don’t have a authoritative statement from someone like the Christ, which says that the soul enters the fetus at conception. In fact I think there are many statements from others that ensoulment happens on the 40th day or 49th day or even 90th day after conception. For all we know, it could be just before birth.Perhaps we should release all of the murderers from our prisons.
After all, there is absolutely no scientific evidence that the people they killed had a soul.
For humans after birth, every religion states they have a soul and that is what makes them human.
R
Rau
Guest
But as you’ve said, if the unborn does have a soul, it would still be ok to “remove” the unborn at anytime, even before viability. A death sentence. So in your view, souls don’t count for much; they don’t matter. Let’s remember that.
O
openmind77
Guest
If we do not know, we need to defer to the woman’s wish to terminate pregnancy. We should not impose our belief on the unfortunate woman. So whether it is OK or not neither you or I can say.
I personally don’t believe the soul of the unborn infant resides in the fetus from the time of conception, probably not till many months later, when the brain is almost fully developed. But that is my personal opinion, just like yours that the fetus is a human right from conception.
We should not condemn anyone on the basis of our personal opinion, so we need to wait for someone like the Christ to tell us for sure. As I said before this event will occur soon,
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Rau
Guest
The brain does not reach anywhere near full development at anytime in utero. It does not reach full development as an infant, nor even a teenager. And what of the severely mentally handicapped? Not human either? No soul?
O
openmind77
Guest
Full development does not mean to adult state - it means all the brain’s parts are there. I would not know exactly at what point that occurs or how to judge if it has occurred. Anyway, that is just my personal belief, so the final arbiter of whether it is OK to terminate or not, is with the woman with the unwanted pregnancy. It is her body and she has the right to decide what is kept within her body.
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Rau
Guest
The brain is not just parts - but structure. It is not possible to talk about full development without including structure.
As you make clear, the final arbiter has nothing to do with “humanity”, nothing to do with souls. Your position is that terminating is ok if the preference of the mother is to do so.
O
openmind77
Guest
Exactly, we don’t know, so the mother’s wishes are the only ones that matter - other people should mind their own business - it is her body.
However, when the Christ Returns, we will know definitetively up to what point abortion is OK. I will accept whatever the Christ says (even if he says it is never OK), but I expect that a few years after the Christ returns, abortion will be legal, safe and available in all countries.
So you wish to authorize murder of these individuals based upon no evidence at all.
I have noticed your goal posts have a tendency to move about.
That also happens when pro-death individuals try to defend their stance with logic and reason. They can’t. Logic and reason do not support death.
So their argument has a tendency to flop around like a fish out of water.
O
openmind77
Guest
I (or you) are no one to either authorize or prohibit anything. What is legal is decided by the law of the land. But what is moral is something we should leave up to some one like the Christ. And he will here soon - then this issue will be resolved.
Christ already provided his answer.
O
openmind77
Guest
Chapter and verse please?
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Rau
Guest
That’s right. The other poster holds that a woman may do anything she likes with her unborn offspring because the body of that offspring resides within the cavities of her own body (which, by the way, is required for the thriving of that life) and that “spatial” fact - apparently - is sufficient to make acts against the unborn have no moral meaning.
That too of course is a personal take on morality. And a quite “utilitarian” one at that!
It’s interesting that the other poster took solace in the belief that the Bible said nothing that could weigh against the morality of abortion, but when shown inconvenient references, discarded that line of argument. Here are some more references:
We are told Elisabeth conceived a son and that the “babe” leapt in her womb (when Elizabeth heard Mary…). No mentions of foetuses. Babe is the same word used to describe the Christ child.
In Jeremiah 1:5 we are told that God **KNEW **Jeremiah:“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I **sanctified **thee, and I **ordained **thee a prophet unto the nations.”
And in the Psalm 139, David speaks of himself in the womb.
The Bible never uses less than fully human language when speaking of the unborn. The unborn are not separated from the born as something less.
When Christ comes again, I don’t think he will contradict the divine guidance already provided to us.
For more: biblebelievers.com/jmelton/abortion.html
I could provide the scripture references for the 10 commandments, and I could also outline the specific one against murder.
And I could also point out Jeremiah, and the fact that God knew him before he was formed in the womb.
And I could point out that John leapt for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice before he was born.
But I have a feeling you will simply move the goal posts again.
That would be par for any pro-death argument.
O
openmind77
Guest
You are of course entitled to your beliefs and understanding of the divine guidance already provided, just as I am entitled to my own understanding of divine guidance.
However it may be a good idea to be ready for a few surprises/shocks when he returns - he may not support all your beliefs (or mine).
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