Pro Life versus Pro Choice Debate

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Gee,the person you quote used the same right to life arguments I used and what a local organization used in a full page TImes ad back in 1972…and that abortion is a form of slavery…period!!! Notice also how the word ‘fetus’ is used without the meaning attached: IE: young one…I thus always use the term…developing baby!..I used the song :Unborn Baby’ in my anti-abortion presentations years back.this was by Seals and Crofts…this fine group was punished for this song and it is still available on youtube etc! When one thinks about it,the South won the war after all didn’t they!.The plantation owners wanted a low tarriff to be able to trade with England rather then NewEngland,and also the right to spread slave labor products all over the world and the good ole US of A!..and so in 2,009 what do we have…slave labor products flooding our shelves and abortion on demand being defended on Christian sites…ole Jef Davis and Bob Lee are smiling over yonder…the South has risen again!..but not without a fight…thank God for sites like this that allow us to defend innocent life! Pas
 
Originally Posted by gakroeger
You need to read the rules on this forum. It would have been much easier for me copy and paste the Catechism paragraphs into the post, however, this is against forum rules.
I said I was interested in your arguments. You copy-pasting stuff you didn’t write is not your argument. It’s one thing to cite supporting documents; it’s another to use them as a substitute for actually having to make your own points.
The Catechism is my argument. I begin to understand your position; you accept no wisdom from outside of the few people discussing a very serious blight on our society. The problem with this is that we have thousands of years of experience and wisdom from people much smarter and wiser than anyone on this forum but you refuse to even read it let alone accept it. This appears to me to be the height of arrogance.
Originally Posted by gakroeger
If you are not interested enough in facts and truth to read what is presented and you merely want to engage in circular argument (look back thru the previous posts most of your questions have already been addressed) I will not participate in that kind of debate.
Frankly, in retrospect I’m not really that interested. I was a bit curious about what spectrum of opinion might be considered to be “allowed” by the Church, but when it comes right down to it, the idea that supporting the pro-choice cause (which in the Catholic view includes not just therapeutic abortion but also clearly beneficial things like in vitro fertilization and stem cell research) is somehow immoral is IMO an indefensible and immoral position.
Beneficial for who; certainly not the baby. I was misled by your question about the Church’s teaching. I had come to the conclusion earlier that you were not serious about learning the whys of Church teaching, however when you asked the question I thought I might have misread you. All of the issues you mention are easily explained, Church teaching, if you understand it completely is extremely logical and understandable, however, you must care enough to dig in and learn it. The problem with Catholic’s who are pro choice is that most do not (like you) bother to learn Church history and its teachings. I know you are not interested, however, other readers of this thread; I highly recommend reading the book “Confessions” written by Saint Augustine 1600 years ago, it can be purchased on Amazon.com for $5 or less.

Gearhead, I am not sure why you are even interested in this thread unless in your limited understanding of Church teaching you think you can sway Catholics to adopt your way of thinking. Whatever your reasons, I am glad you have spoken up because I think your involvement has had the opposite effect. Catholics who were or are pro choice have seen some way off base arguments from you and hopefully it will help them see the error of their ways.

At any rate, I will pray for you but I will not get involved in the meaningless banter that you want. If at some point you decide to get serious, let us know and we pro life faithful Catholics will do our best to point you in the right direction. You must understand that the direction our society is going in is leading us into more trouble.
 
Do you know why Embryonic Stem Cell research is so heavily dependent on federal funding? It is because the medical industry has recognized it as a dead end, and private funding can’t be found. Anything that required the death of innocents to further research is not acceptable. What if there was research that promised cures developed the brain stem of adults? Would it be OK to kill adults to harvest the cells. The Church draws no distinction between the two deaths, except that the unborn infant is truly innocent. IVF has multiple problems. One is that it separates the procreation from the sexual union, which is not how God intended us to reproduce. Another is that unused babies are killed, making this practice absolutely opposed to the moral law.
This is one reason I find abortion to be immoral. It is a slippery slope. IVF results in the killing of innocent human beings and it is being done in the name of “science.” I don’t see human cloning being too far off in the future and it terrifies me. It’s like a book by Robin Cook such as Coma. Of course Cook’s books are fiction but they are scary because people know that some of what he talks about could very well be true some day. Harvesting organs from living adults (or God forbid, children) is most likely going on right now. I’m sure there is a black market, and if someone is rich they may be moved to the top of the waiting lists for organs donated by people upon their death. I myself received cadaver bone during a spinal fusion surgery and I admit it creeped me out a little bit - having part of another human being as a part of my spine even though I realize it was done out of love and concern by the donor and I appreciate his/her donation. Even though it didn’t work. I don’t know if this is even done anymore as I was told by my surgeon that the results they expected just did not occur.

But back to the morality and ethical problems. We are, at the very least, with IVF and stem cell research, cloning and similar procedures, leading to the day when it will be acceptable to clone a human being in order to obtain organs to replace the malfunctioning organs of the human who has been cloned. It’s supposed to be like living forever. But it’s wrong for two reasons:

(1) We live forever anyway and to try to hold onto our aging physical bodies while alive on earth indicates a fear of death (which I admit I have as I struggle with faith issues) and a disregard for the human soul;

(2) It is a lack of respect for human life. It is selfish and callous beyond belief to think that it is OK to take away organs from a human who has been given life through the cloning process. Doesn’t the human who has resulted from cloning have the right to life or is he/she just a “farm” with a crop of organs that will be harvested, killing him/her in the process?

It scares me.
 
Re “personhood” of the unborn: I have been thinking a lot and something occurred to me. Now this may be completely wrong but I don’t think so.

Do some people who are in favor of abortion believe that the zygote/embyo/fetus is not a person when it is in an unwanted pregnancy but that it IS a person when it is wanted?

It seems to me that the few people I know that have gone through abortions love the children they carry to natural birth very much and I don’t understand why they don’t love the children they carry even in an unplanned pregnancy that may be inconvenient. When they are pregnant with babies that are not aborted they do the same things that prolifers do - paint the nursery, buy cute clothes to be used by the baby once he/she is born, etc.

I know I’m not stating this very coherently and I apologize for that. But I want to throw this in as a possibility, certainly not in all cases but maybe in some. Does this make sense?
 
Frankly, in retrospect I’m not really that interested. I was a bit curious about what spectrum of opinion might be considered to be “allowed” by the Church, but when it comes right down to it,the idea that supporting the pro-choice cause (which in the Catholic view includes not just therapeutic abortion but also clearly beneficial things like in vitro fertilization and stem cell research) is somehow immoral is IMO an indefensible and immoral position.
(underlining emphasis added by caramel)

And that is because you do not consider the unborn to be human beings. You do not consider them to be persons. Prolifers do. That is the difference between those who are proabortion and those who are prolife - the question of whether the unborn are persons. Of course you find IVF and stem cell research to not be immoral. Why would it be if that is killed in the process is not a human being??

But if what is killed IS a human being (a person), then it is absolutely immoral. No question in my mind.
 
The Catechism is my argument.
You wrote the Catchism of the Catholic Church?
I begin to understand your position; you accept no wisdom from outside of the few people discussing a very serious blight on our society. The problem with this is that we have thousands of years of experience and wisdom from people much smarter and wiser than anyone on this forum but you refuse to even read it let alone accept it. This appears to me to be the height of arrogance.
No… here’s my actual position: I feel no special obligation to put more effort into considering your argument than you did in crafting it.

If you want to cite the Catechism, fine… but cite it. IOW, don’t just spam the thread; actually argue something: IOW, saying “from Catechism section XXXX, we know ‘A’, and when we put this together with ‘B’ from XXXX and XXXX, we see that this implies ‘C’, which is why I believe it - and here are the source documents in case you want to confirm what I’ve said” is fine. Saying “here - read all these and then get back to me” isn’t.
Beneficial for who; certainly not the baby. I was misled by your question about the Church’s teaching. I had come to the conclusion earlier that you were not serious about learning the whys of Church teaching, however when you asked the question I thought I might have misread you. All of the issues you mention are easily explained, Church teaching, if you understand it completely is extremely logical and understandable, however, you must care enough to dig in and learn it. The problem with Catholic’s who are pro choice is that most do not (like you) bother to learn Church history and its teachings.
I asked you about the Church’s position because I suspected that what you were arguing wasn’t even internally consistent with Catholic doctrine. I think there’s a huge danger in telling people that if they want to be good Catholics, they have to be obedient lackeys for whichever politician says the magic words “pro-life”, regardless of the morality of his platform as a whole.
I know you are not interested, however, other readers of this thread; I highly recommend reading the book “Confessions” written by Saint Augustine 1600 years ago, it can be purchased on Amazon.com for $5 or less.
Or it can be borrowed for free from the library, which is where I got it. I’ve read it.
Gearhead, I am not sure why you are even interested in this thread unless in your limited understanding of Church teaching you think you can sway Catholics to adopt your way of thinking. Whatever your reasons, I am glad you have spoken up because I think your involvement has had the opposite effect. Catholics who were or are pro choice have seen some way off base arguments from you and hopefully it will help them see the error of their ways.
I do doubt that I’ll sway anyone’s opinion from “pro-life” to pro-choice, but I think it is within the realm of possibility to get people to realize that the people on the other side aren’t some sort of evil monsters, and that they really do have good reasons for taking the position they have.

Changing people’s positions on abortions is hard. Hopefully creating some respect for people on the other side is easier… though in retrospect, I suppose the times that I’ve let my temper get away from me in this thread probably haven’t helped.
At any rate, I will pray for you but I will not get involved in the meaningless banter that you want. If at some point you decide to get serious, let us know and we pro life faithful Catholics will do our best to point you in the right direction. You must understand that the direction our society is going in is leading us into more trouble.
If by “more trouble” you mean “a less Catholic world”, then you may be right… but I’m okay with it.
 
And that is because you do not consider the unborn to be human beings. You do not consider them to be persons. Prolifers do. That is the difference between those who are proabortion and those who are prolife - the question of whether the unborn are persons. Of course you find IVF and stem cell research to not be immoral. Why would it be if that is killed in the process is not a human being??

But if what is killed IS a human being (a person), then it is absolutely immoral. No question in my mind.
I was just alluding to a theme that I’ve seen from the “pro-life” side: that the precautionary principle demands the prohibition of all abortion on the grounds that there’s some chance the fetus/embryo might be a person, and abortion doesn’t result in “real” benefit anyhow.

However, stem cell-based research has the potential to be very beneficial. In vitro fertilization has clear benefits as well (even if the Catholic Church shrugs them off as “immoral” even without the issue of termination of unwanted embryos). And even therapeutic abortion is a response to real issues, even if you think that it’s the wrong response.

Basically, what I’m getting at is that it’s not enough to just say “I say it’s a person, you say it’s not, but as long as there’s a chance I might be right, I should get my way.” I think that as long as we’re talking about things like eliminating a whole spectrum of research that could lead to the cures for all sorts of diseases and conditions, the “pro-life” side really needs to present a valid and compelling argument. Some people try to do this, but many don’t.
 
I was just alluding to a theme that I’ve seen from the “pro-life” side: that the precautionary principle demands the prohibition of all abortion on the grounds that there’s some chance the fetus/embryo might be a person, and abortion doesn’t result in “real” benefit anyhow.

However, stem cell-based research has the potential to be very beneficial. In vitro fertilization has clear benefits as well (even if the Catholic Church shrugs them off as “immoral” even without the issue of termination of unwanted embryos). And even therapeutic abortion is a response to real issues, even if you think that it’s the wrong response.

Basically, what I’m getting at is that it’s not enough to just say “I say it’s a person, you say it’s not, but as long as there’s a chance I might be right, I should get my way.” I think that as long as we’re talking about things like eliminating a whole spectrum of research that could lead to the cures for all sorts of diseases and conditions, the “pro-life” side really needs to present a valid and compelling argument. Some people try to do this, but many don’t.
Everyone knows embryonic stem cell research is a dead end. Adult stem cells, on the other hand have produced results. Even if embryonic stem cell research was promising, so what? Killing in the name of scientific research is not acceptable–unless you are Josef Mengele
 

I was just alluding to a theme that I’ve seen from the “pro-life” side: that the precautionary principle demands the prohibition of all abortion on the grounds that there’s some chance the fetus/embryo might be a person, and abortion doesn’t result in “real” benefit anyhow.
As I’ve stated several times now, prolifers are not necessarily against all abortions. I don’t understand why I keep repeating this but it isn’t getting across. I, personally, am against all abortions with the exception of danger to the mother’s life. I believe that is a view held by most prolifers.
However, stem cell-based research has the potential to be very beneficial. In vitro fertilization has clear benefits as well (even if the Catholic Church shrugs them off as “immoral” even without the issue of termination of unwanted embryos). And even therapeutic abortion is a response to real issues, even if you think that it’s the wrong response.
The results from any type of research can be very beneficial. During WWII the Japanese conducted research on fully conscious, aware humans. They would tie them down and then pull out a scalpel and cut them open. I’m not sure where I read this so I can’t provide a link but I did read somewhere that the reason they did not anesthetize the “victims” of their research was that it added a confounding factor to their research. Which is true; it would have added a confounding factor. But it was still torture and it was still murder.

Do the ends justify the means? Is there another way to obtain this data? Why are veterinary schools moving away from dissecting killed animals to actually operating on fully anesthetized animals and letting them live?

Why is it acceptable to kill human beings in order to obtain data that would clearly be beneficial to perhaps millions of people? My mother was diabetic and died of complications of that disease. My father died of pancreatic cancer. Of course I didn’t want them to die. And I don’t want children to die from diseases that could be cured if we just knew the way to cure them.

And I don’t want human beings killed to obtain data, even if that data would be beneficial to other human beings. Murder is wrong. It is wrong when it involves adults; it is wrong when it involves born children; it is WRONG when it involves the unborn.
Basically, what I’m getting at is that it’s not enough to just say “I say it’s a person, you say it’s not, but as long as there’s a chance I might be right, I should get my way.” I think that as long as we’re talking about things like eliminating a whole spectrum of research that could lead to the cures for all sorts of diseases and conditions, the “pro-life” side really needs to present a valid and compelling argument. Some people try to do this, but many don’t.
Who said that?? I certainly didn’t. My point is that it is the personhood of the zygote/embryo/fetus that is at the basis of the whole controversy. Because if you believe that what you are killing in order to obtain your research data is a human being then you must find another way to obtain that data.

Should data that has been obtained from stem cell research be used at all? Of course it should be used. But if stem cell research results in the death of human beings then we need to stop it now and get our data another way.

Do you remember a few years ago when many brands of dog and cat food were removed from store shelves because the animals that ate this food often became ill and died? I have a menagerie in my house and so I was understandably concerned. So I did some checking and I found that one company was testing their dog and cat food on thousands of dogs and cats and that such% died and such% didn’t. And that was their research. That horrified and saddened me. This research was conducted AFTER everyone knew that there was something wrong with the pet food.

I see that happening with stem cell research. Have a steady supply of unborn children and do your research on them because they aren’t people and they certainly aren’t human beings so what’s the big deal? The big deal is that they are people and human beings.

We are supposed to be smart. Researchers are supposed to be very smart. I am sure there are other ways to find this very important data. In a biology class one day the professor asked how we would find out if an animal could see color. My answer was that we should dissect it to see if there were color receptors. Dumb dumb dumb. Another student suggested that an experiment could be conducted using behavior of the animal and that wouldn’t hurt the animal. Smart. I learned something that day. There is more than one way to obtain data and we should conduct our research in a way which minimizes the damage to the animal we are studying.

IOW we should not be killing the unborn to obtain data. Let’s find another way!!
 
Basically, what I’m getting at is that it’s not enough to just say “I say it’s a person, you say it’s not, but as long as there’s a chance I might be right, I should get my way.” I think that as long as we’re talking about things like eliminating a whole spectrum of research that could lead to the cures for all sorts of diseases and conditions, the “pro-life” side really needs to present a valid and compelling argument. Some people try to do this, but many don’t.
Do you agree that we are discussing what ‘might’ be a person? If so why isn’t that valid or compelling, or a good reason to argue that it’s wrong to treat it as a means to an end?
 
Do you agree that we are discussing what ‘might’ be a person? If so why isn’t that valid or compelling, or a good reason to argue that it’s wrong to treat it as a means to an end?
No, I don’t.

I can somewhat understand that mindset when we’re talking about an 8-month fetus, but absolutely not when we’re talking about an embryo.
 
No, I don’t.

I can somewhat understand that mindset when we’re talking about an 8-month fetus, but absolutely not when we’re talking about an embryo.
Age isn’t an approprite tool to determine personhood. Either an unborn child is a person or it’s not. The only difference between an 8 month old and a 1 week old unborn child is development. The same difference between a newborn child and a 35 year old adult. Development doesn’t make one person more valid than another.

When we are talking about the mass slaughter of what is human, we have to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the thing which we are destorying isn’t a human life. We have to, especially in a legal sense because in America ALL humans have a right to life.

Another thought is when you look into the truly horrible atrocities committed they all had one thing in common. The perpetrators of the crime were trying to specifically define who was human and who was not. Slavery was deemed acceptable because blacks weren’t fully human. The holocaust was okay because Jews were not human. And now: Stem cell research and abortion is okay because they aren’t deemed human.
 
Basically, what I’m getting at is that it’s not enough to just say “I say it’s a person, you say it’s not, but as long as there’s a chance I might be right, I should get my way.”
But we don’t think we “might be right”…we are absolutely convinced we are right, based on scientific data coupled with clear Church teaching. It’s murder, gear. Plain and simple. You may not believe it, but we do. And what you’re essentially telling us to do is look the other way and allow the perceived “benefits” of murder play out, and let mothers decide if murder is suitable for them or not. Every time the word abortion is uttered in this thread, or anywhere else, we see the word and the action of murder. Would you support your current definition of murder being made legal? If not, would you be perplexed by others who would try to convince you that it should be a legal activity, up to the choice of all people? Turn that around and put abortion in place of murder. That’s where we are.
 
Age isn’t an approprite tool to determine personhood.
What makes you think that I was using age to determine personhood? There’s a heck of a lot of difference between an embryo and a baby besides age.
Either an unborn child is a person or it’s not. The only difference between an 8 month old and a 1 week old unborn child is development.
The only difference between the plans for a house and the finished house itself is “development”, too, but I’m not about to try to live in a set of blueprints.
 
But we don’t think we “might be right”…we are absolutely convinced we are right, based on scientific data coupled with clear Church teaching.
And I’m not convinced that your conviction is based in fact, so where does this get us?
It’s murder, gear. Plain and simple. You may not believe it, but we do. And what you’re essentially telling us to do is look the other way and allow the perceived “benefits” of murder play out, and let mothers decide if murder is suitable for them or not.
No, what I’m telling you is that despite the conviction with which you hold your beliefs, you might be wrong.
Every time the word abortion is uttered in this thread, or anywhere else, we see the word and the action of murder. Would you support your current definition of murder being made legal? If not, would you be perplexed by others who would try to convince you that it should be a legal activity, up to the choice of all people? Turn that around and put abortion in place of murder. That’s where we are.
I’ve heard the same argument from PETA for why meat-eating should be illegal. If we both reject it from them, why shouldn’t I reject it from you?
 
What makes you think that I was using age to determine personhood? There’s a heck of a lot of difference between an embryo and a baby besides age.

The only difference between the plans for a house and the finished house itself is “development”, too, but I’m not about to try to live in a set of blueprints.
What is it that makes a person a person?
 
What makes you think that I was using age to determine personhood? There’s a heck of a lot of difference between an embryo and a baby besides age.

The only difference between the plans for a house and the finished house itself is “development”, too, but I’m not about to try to live in a set of blueprints.
Gear, you are avoiding the issues entirely, and making pretty big jumps to support your statements. You can not compare the development of an organic being to the building of an inanimate man-made object.

Again I say, that at conception a human is created. They will go through several stages of development and change throughout their entire life. Who are we to say at what stage that human becomes worthy of life? And again let me reiterate the point that it is when you see people trying to nitpick their definition of who is human that horrible atrocities are committed.
 
Greetings thread participants:

I have given up on Gearhead, and I see the same old tired arguments represented over and over by Gearhead. Hopefully someone will be able to get him to look at the wealth of data available not only from the Catholic Church teaching (which he seems totally unwilling to even read let alone contemplate) but also from numerous intelligent writers though out history on both sides of the argument. Until Gearhead is willing to open his mind just a little, he will continue to repeat the same disproven arguments over and over even though reasonable answers have already been provided to him. This is akin to beating your head against a wall. But it is entertaining to watch and maybe others reading these post will see the fallacies of his arguments.
 
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