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fix
Guest
Not a developing baby? That just denies reality.
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gearhead
Guest
Is a pan full of raw dough a cake? Is a chassis and bins full of parts a car?
Just because it will be a thing given time and the processes to develop does not mean it is the thing right now.
Look - if you want to make an argument that a fetus, an embryo or a paperweight is a person, make it. Don’t rely on semantic games and false equivocations.
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CWBetts
Guest
I gave you the explanation—its in the DNA. Human DNA=person. It is that simple
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sauce
Guest
Doesn’t an Atheist have to have something to Atheate?
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fix
Guest
A developing human is not like dough or car parts. At what point is the developing baby a person?
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gearhead
Guest
No, it’s not that simple. Every cell in our body has human DNA. That does not mean that every cell in the body is its own person.
And as I pointed out before, a tumour will have human DNA that’s distinct from the person in which the tumour resides. Does a tumour deserve the protection associated with a person?
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gearhead
Guest
Yes, it’s the same thing that all you theists “theate”, only we do it differently.
Why?
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
I honestly expect to be pilloried for this statement, so, gentlemen and ladies, gather your stones.
I agree that the more you obfuscate the unborn child, the more you suggest it is not human, or merely “pre-human”, the easier it is to kill it.
But as long as the leading advocates of life are celibate middle-aged men, and the advocates of “choice-death” are women, the easier it will be for other women to see whom they identify with.
Women need to take charge of the debate and the quash the lies that are told about their bodies by other women.
I agree that the more you obfuscate the unborn child, the more you suggest it is not human, or merely “pre-human”, the easier it is to kill it.
But as long as the leading advocates of life are celibate middle-aged men, and the advocates of “choice-death” are women, the easier it will be for other women to see whom they identify with.
Women need to take charge of the debate and the quash the lies that are told about their bodies by other women.
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Bluegoat
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You’ll have to be more specific, since the sum of what I said was that abortion is wrong in all but the most unusual cases and maybe even then, that the death penalty is wrong, and so is letting people kill someone to protect their stuff.
I also said that unless a culture connects with the idea that human life is sacred in all cases, I think it is unlikely you will truly convince that culture that abortion is wrong in a meaningful way.
There is actually good reason to think that the reason a person didn’t follow the Law, his commandments, may well be a factor in their judgement. But that isn’t really my point - my point is that if you make unconvincing arguments, people are less likely to accept them, even when the cause they are in aid of is just.
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CWBetts
Guest
You are correct, to a degree. I saw an episode of “Life on the Rock” encluraging young ladies to get active in politics for this very reason
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Bluegoat
Guest
You were commenting about my personal acts and characteristics, which is an ad hominem argument.
On untruth - as I said, the OP made statements about the pro-choice position that were, I thought, untrue. Whether honestly mistaken or not I have no idea - I don’t have any reason to think that they were not honest statements. I said that’ I thought they were mistaken, and why, and gave some examples of pro-choice arguments that fell outside of the scope of what the first post said.
But there seems to be a feeling here that any argument against abortion is good, and that any characterization of the pro-choice position is ok if it makes it look bad. I think that is wrong, it also has to be true. We are not allowed to misrepresent those we have even serious and passionate disagreements with.
I also think that attitude is bad for the pro-life movement.
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gakroeger
Guest
Gearhead
Did you purposely ignore my question as to if you looked at the images of the aftermath of an actual abortion posted with the first post on this thread?
Can you look at those images and claim they are car parts, paper weights, tumors, or cake dough? Or do you stand with most other pro choice people in refusing to face reality?
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gearhead
Guest
No, I missed it.
I haven’t looked at them yet. I saw “video” in the URL and avoided it. This internet connection can’t handle streaming video, so it’ll have to wait until I have a chance to check it out from another computer.
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gakroeger
Guest
And I responded to your post stating that the original post did not claim to be all inclusive of all pro choice arguments. I also clarified the point of the original post in that the argument boils down to whether the embryo is human from its earliest stages? And if the embryo is human all arguments by the pro choice group are invalid because to kill the embryo simply to avoid an inconvenience is murder.
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sauce
Guest
You are right. Yet, look what happened to Sarah Palin. She actually gave a great example by having her child despite what she knew, and she was criticized and ridiculed anyway. She was not admired and became the brunt of jokes. Feminists did not think her choice was fantastic. The mindset of women who are poisoned by godless ideologies is very difficult to overcome. And it goes round and round. This is gonna sound naive but they need Jesus. Really.
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gakroeger
Guest
Please let us know if you find any car parts in there.
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gearhead
Guest
Is the concept of an analogy completely foreign to you?
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sauce
Guest
gearhead, it has to be there for you to Atheate it. A little tricky for you to get around.Yes, it’s the same thing that all you theists “theate”, only we do it differently.
Why?
A little like the woman who is “with child.” Gee, how did ancient men know that?
Their words not mine.
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gearhead
Guest
What on Earth are you going on about and how is it relevant to the thread?
The ancients also thought that sperm was the “seed” of humanity, i.e. the thing that contains the whole individual, and that the woman’s contribution was only provide the “ground” in which it could grow.A little like the woman who is “with child.” Gee, how did ancient men know that?
Their words not mine.
It seems to me that their understanding of human reproduction wasn’t exactly equivalent to modern understanding.
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gakroeger
Guest
This is exactly why the politically correct term they use for themselves and insist that we pro life people use for them, “pro choice” is bogus. Because they are not pro choice as your example of Sarah Palin proves. They do not approve of a legitimate choice for life, they only approve of one choice “death”.
This is not “pro” anything. It is not pro choice because they deny Sarah Palin and women like her a choice, it certainly is not pro life, and it is not even as they claim pro women. Most women, who have been talked into an abortion, live many years afterward with regrets and often physical damage to their reproductive systems. The correct term is pro abortion. Pro death.
Nothing naive about needing Jesus, we all do. America is finding out it needs Jesus also, it is time to let Him back into our daily lives. We desperately need to reestablish a “Culture of Life”.
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