Pro Life versus Pro Choice Debate

[gearhead]

So, the starting point with you is that unborn life deserves no protection. Got it.

The starting point is that we are completely free to do whatever we want until restrictions on that freedom are justified.

The real issue is that you, and others, do not value unborn life as equal to born life.

And if you want me to think otherwise, you’re free to try to convince me.

They have no authentic right. The state is not a god.

What is an “authentic right”?

Yes, I want the law to be just and protect the life of innocent. Not a radical position, simply a logical one known to people of good will.

And if your position was as logical as you say, it would be easy for you to defend. If you really are on the side of what’s good and right, then it’s not an unreasonable burden for you to justify your position.

 

[fix]

The starting point is that we are completely free to do whatever we want until restrictions on that freedom are justified.

As I said the innocent deserve no protection by your standard. Understood.

And if you want me to think otherwise, you’re free to try to convince me.

Those who refuse to be convinced cannot be convinced.

What is an “authentic right”?

One endowed by our Creator.

And if your position was as logical as you say, it would be easy for you to defend. If you really are on the side of what’s good and right, then it’s not an unreasonable burden for you to justify your position.

It is easily defended, has been many times here and elsewhere. It is rejected by the pro abortion folks because they do not like the truth.

 

[gakroeger]

No, that’s not it. The video shows things like an arm set on top of a coin with a full hand, but if you look up a chart of fetal development milestones, you can see that fingers aren’t that well differentiated until the fetus is much larger.

Also, the video raises other questions, like how an anti-abortion filmmaker would be able get ahold of a bunch of aborted fetuses. My instict is that it might be easier to just fake them.

Unless you made the video yourself, I don’t see how you’d be in a position to do that.

A fetus (as opposed to whatever was in that video) is human in the same sense that a human spleen is human.

But to look at this from another angle: if we were to assume that the video is true, what bearing would it have on abortions at the early end of the spectrum, for instance with the “morning after” pill?

In other words you deny that abortions are taking place?

You don’t believe actual pictures exist of actual abortions?

You have to convince yourself that these pictures are fake to feed your denial.

You need to research a bit more there are thousands of pictures and proof out there.

On Priests for Life there is a video simulation perfomed by an ex abortionist that goes into great deal about the abortion proces of which he himself had performed thousands before he saw the light and realized he was murdering real human beings.

The extremes one can go to supporting their denial are stunning to me.

 

[gearhead]

In other words you deny that abortions are taking place?

No, I don’t.

You don’t believe actual pictures exist of actual abortions?

Sure there are. I don’t think the ones in the video are actual pictures of actual abortions.

You have to convince yourself that these pictures are fake to feed your denial.

No, I just have to realize that this is a common tactic of the anti-abortion movement. It’s shown itself to be untrustworthy, so I decline to give it the benefit of the doubt.

You need to research a bit more there are thousands of pictures and proof out there.

On Priests for Life there is a video simulation perfomed by an ex abortionist that goes into great deal about the abortion proces of which he himself had performed thousands before he saw the light and realized he was murdering real human beings.

The extremes one can go to supporting their denial are stunning to me.

Indeed. Lying to support one’s cause is rather extreme. Especially for people who purport to be on the side of truth.

 

[Bluegoat]

Not having looked at the video, I have no comment on it specifically. But there is a lot of faked material of that nature available on the internet, so it is important to make sure of the source before using it. If you can’t track down who made it and some information about the group, it is a good idea to be skeptical - just like with all information.

Personally, I have a real problem with showing pictures of mutilated people without their consent in any context, so I wouldn’t be inclined to post such things on a public forum anyway.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I honestly expect to be pilloried for this statement, so, gentlemen and ladies, gather your stones.

I agree that the more you obfuscate the unborn child, the more you suggest it is not human, or merely “pre-human”, the easier it is to kill it.

But as long as the leading advocates of life are celibate middle-aged men, and the advocates of “choice-death” are women, the easier it will be for other women to see whom they identify with.

Women need to take charge of the debate and the quash the lies that are told about their bodies by other women.

throws squashy stones at you lol

But seriously, I think you are mainly right. Women DO need to get involved, because many women ARE pro life. The problem is, teh prolife women who do stick their heads out of their caves have them immediately lopped off by prochoice men. I myself have had this problem, and prochoice women who see a prolife women equate her to a cockroach and will do every catty twisted and evil thing to shut her up, because they see her as a traitor and evil. I speak from life experience on this one. Another good example that someone else has brought up is Sarah Palin. They brutalised her and her family in the media to the point where she left office (I am sure, though it’s not official) for the protection of her daughters and family. It’s sick, but women are vulnerable creatures in this debate because we have so much suffering thrown on us from it. Whether its from having the abortion themselves or those of us who have lost family members and seen the destruction of our mothers (our womanly role models) from abortion. I think these middle aged men who are fighting for us are saints for doing so. They are fighting to protect not only women, but their children. Abortion is a brutal attack on everything that it means to be a whole woman.

 

[gakroeger]

No, I don’t.

Sure there are. I don’t think the ones in the video are actual pictures of actual abortions.

No, I just have to realize that this is a common tactic of the anti-abortion movement. It’s shown itself to be untrustworthy, so I decline to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed. Lying to support one’s cause is rather extreme. Especially for people who purport to be on the side of truth.

Because you call something a lie either because you believe it to be a lie or because you hope it is a lie, does NOT make it a lie. When you call something a lie, the burden of proof falls on you to prove it is a lie. You make a feeble attempt to prove your case which falls woefully short. In the end you are expressing your opinion and pretending it to be fact.

What do you prove by admitting that abortion is very real and the actual pictures of abortions exist, but deny these particular images are real? If real pictures exist why would pro life people want or need to produce fake ones? Your denial and accusation makes no sense. Like most of your arguments.

Your responses seem to me to be thought up on the spot and designed to dispute whatever point is made. If I stated that something was black, even if the black object was produced in front of you, you would precede to build a case for it is not really black but some color resembling black.

Truth is indeed what we striving for; I have tried to present factual information. About the only thing I have seen from you is opinion and lots of denial of truth.

 

[gearhead]

What do you prove by admitting that abortion is very real and the actual pictures of abortions exist, but deny these particular images are real?

Because they don’t mesh up with information from unbiased sources.

If real pictures exist why would pro life people want or need to produce fake ones?

Because there’s more of an emotional impact and connection if you can show something that looks like a little baby, the size of a dime, with hands, feet and a fully-formed face instead of what it actually looks like when it’s this size:

Your denial and accusation makes no sense. Like most of your arguments.

Hey - don’t blame me if your compatriots have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. Faking of abortion images happens regularly. It’s not reasonable for you to expect me to accept yours, especially when they disagree with available information about fetal development.

Truth is indeed what we striving for; I have tried to present factual information. About the only thing I have seen from you is opinion and lots of denial of truth.

Failure to accept your opinion is not the same as denial of truth.

 

[gakroeger]

Because they don’t mesh up with information from unbiased sources.

Because there’s more of an emotional impact and connection if you can show something that looks like a little baby, the size of a dime, with hands, feet and a fully-formed face instead of what it actually looks like when it’s this size:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Week_Human_Embryo_from_Ectopic_Pregnancy.jpg

Hey - don’t blame me if your compatriots have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. Faking of abortion images happens regularly. It’s not reasonable for you to expect me to accept yours, especially when they disagree with available information about fetal development.

Failure to accept your opinion is not the same as denial of truth.

Thanks for proving my point. Why did you omit the point of your disagreeing with every point just because it is from pro life. Because I am pro life does that mean I am wrong on every issue in your mind?

Posting a picture of an unaborted fetus instead of the massacre of a fetus is akin to comparing a picture of some gorgeous movie star to a scene from massacre on Elm Street.

 

[Lizziebel]

Because there’s more of an emotional impact and connection if you can show something that looks like a little baby, the size of a dime, with hands, feet and a fully-formed face instead of what it actually looks like when it’s this size:

If that picture isn’t enough to create an emotional impact and connection, I don’t know what would be. What more could a person need to see to know that this little fetus is *a *human being (noun, lol!), a human life? A human life.

Different from an unfertilized egg or an organ of a body or a hair; those are just parts of a whole human being. That fetus from the moment of conception is a human that *will develop * hair and organs. He or she will develop to the point of being able to move, take in nourishment, breathe, and survive outside of the womb. He or she will eventually be born. He or she will learn, explore the world, live and love, make friends, and grow while maturing physically, emotionally, cognitively, and spiritually into a child, a teenager, and later an adult. He or she will make precious memories all along the way with family and friends, and will touch so many lives…things that they’ll all treasure and will never want to forget.

He or she is what we all once were, but we have had the opportunity to be born and mature into the people we are now. I can’t begin to put into words how profound the life we each live is. We’ve all done all of these things in our lives, and have memories we treasure and wouldn’t give up for anything…because that opportunity wasn’t taken from us.

 

[gakroeger]

If that picture isn’t enough to create an emotional impact and connection, I don’t know what would be. What more could a person need to see to know that this little fetus is *a *human being (noun, lol!), a human life? A human life.

Different from an unfertilized egg or an organ of a body or a hair; those are just parts of a whole human being. That fetus from the moment of conception is a human that *will develop * hair and organs. He or she will develop to the point of being able to move, take in nourishment, breathe, and survive outside of the womb. He or she will eventually be born. He or she will learn, explore the world, live and love, make friends, and grow while maturing physically, emotionally, cognitively, and spiritually into a child, a teenager, and later an adult. He or she will make precious memories all along the way with family and friends, and will touch so many lives…things that they’ll all treasure and will never want to forget.

He or she is what we all once were, but we have had the opportunity to be born and mature into the people we are now. I can’t begin to put into words how profound the life we each live is. We’ve all done all of these things in our lives, and have memories we treasure and wouldn’t give up for anything…because that opportunity wasn’t taken from us.

I wonder if this is gearhead first baby picture from their family album?

 

[Supercatholic]

Because you call something a lie either because you believe it to be a lie or because you hope it is a lie, does NOT make it a lie. When you call something a lie, the burden of proof falls on you to prove it is a lie. You make a feeble attempt to prove your case which falls woefully short. In the end you are expressing your opinion and pretending it to be fact.

What do you prove by admitting that abortion is very real and the actual pictures of abortions exist, but deny these particular images are real? If real pictures exist why would pro life people want or need to produce fake ones? Your denial and accusation makes no sense. Like most of your arguments.

Your responses seem to me to be thought up on the spot and designed to dispute whatever point is made. If I stated that something was black, even if the black object was produced in front of you, you would precede to build a case for it is not really black but some color resembling black.

Truth is indeed what we striving for; I have tried to present factual information. About the only thing I have seen from you is opinion and lots of denial of truth.

Excellent post. Let’s face it, this gearhead will never accept truth in any manner. He can sit in on an abortion of a baby 8 months in gestation watch it struggle to survive and he still defend that action just because 5 spineless idiotic supreme court justices said it was ok to do so.

 

[gearhead]

Thanks for proving my point. Why did you omit the point of your disagreeing with every point just because it is from pro life. Because I am pro life does that mean I am wrong on every issue in your mind?

No, I just thought that part of your post didn’t warrant a response.

Posting a picture of an unaborted fetus instead of the massacre of a fetus is akin to comparing a picture of some gorgeous movie star to a scene from massacre on Elm Street.

Apparently, that fetus was aborted - according to the caption, it was an ectopic pregnancy.

However, my point was to illustrate the difference between reality and that video to show that the video was probably faked: for example, the skeletal structure of the hands and feet are starting to form, but there are no well-defined fingers or toes. In contrast, your video shows separated, distinct fingers and toes like a child’s doll.

I didn’t post the picture for emotional impact; I did it to show that your video is probably fake.

 

[gearhead]

Different from an unfertilized egg or an organ of a body or a hair; those are just parts of a whole human being.

What human being is an unfertilized egg part of? The mother? The two don’t even have the same DNA.

Excellent post. Let’s face it, this gearhead will never accept truth in any manner. He can sit in on an abortion of a baby 8 months in gestation watch it struggle to survive and he still defend that action just because 5 spineless idiotic supreme court justices said it was ok to do so.

Actually, all else being equal, I think that it would be a reasonable compromise to restrict late-term abortions to cases where it really is a matter of life or death for the mother (i.e. a near-blanket prohibition on late-term abortion). However, here’s the thing: I don’t for a second trust the anti-abortion movement to not use such a compromise as a foothold toward an all-out abortion ban. I think this is a common viewpoint in the pro-choice movement: they’d be willing to concede late-term abortions, but they aren’t willing to help strengthen the anti-abortion movement. If they thought that compromise on this issue wouldn’t result in a strengthened attack on abortion generally, they’d probably be willing to give up some ground.

So, effectively, your pressure for no abortions at all helps to keep late-term abortions legal.

 

[Supercatholic]

ATTENTION! ATTENTION! gearhead needs your help! I posed a simple direct question in post # 198. Usually he chimes right back with a smart mouth response with an inventory of my intelligence (or lack there of). Yet he hasn’t answered my question. Could it be I have stumped the superior mind of gearhead? Please go to post # 198 and answer for him. If any one who shares his viewpoint can provide a logical indisputable answer I will credit gearhead with the answer. Pro death…, oops! I mean pro “choicers” only please. After all I wouldn’t want us “biased” pro lifers to answer that question. It should be only answered by an “unbiased” supporter of death.

 

[gearhead]

ATTENTION! ATTENTION! gearhead needs your help! I posed a simple direct question in post # 198. Usually he chimes right back with a smart mouth response with an inventory of my intelligence (or lack there of). Yet he hasn’t answered my question. Could it be I have stumped the superior mind of gearhead? Please go to post # 198 and answer for him. If any one who shares his viewpoint can provide a logical indisputable answer I will credit gearhead with the answer. Pro death…, oops! I mean pro “choicers” only please. After all I wouldn’t want us “biased” pro lifers to answer that question. It should be only answered by an “unbiased” supporter of death.

I missed it in the flood of posts. Sue me.

But here’s your answer:

I have one simple question I would like you to answer. If a woman went to the hospital to deliver a full term “human” but decided to have an abortion just minutes before delivery, did the doctors abort a fetus or murder a baby?

Your question is based on a false premise. They wouldn’t abort the fetus.

 

[CWBetts]

I missed it in the flood of posts. Sue me.

But here’s your answer:

Your question is based on a false premise. They wouldn’t abort the fetus.

Actually, you are wrong. Abortions up to the point of delivery are legal, and I say again if anyone thinks that abortion is acceptable, but does not think that infanticide is, then they are inconsistent. They have simply made an arbitrary distinction, since any logical distinction is impossible to draw.

 

[gearhead]

Actually, you are wrong. Abortions up to the point of delivery are legal, and I say again if anyone thinks that abortion is acceptable, but does not think that infanticide is, then they are inconsistent. They have simply made an arbitrary distinction, since any logical distinction is impossible to draw.

Just because something is legal doesn’t make it necessarily a good idea medically, or even possible in practical terms.

And the dividing line at birth is no more arbitrary than the dividing line at conception.

 

[CWBetts]

Just because something is legal doesn’t make it necessarily a good idea medically, or even possible in practical terms.

And the dividing line at birth is no more arbitrary than the dividing line at conception.

How so. You are saying that before birth it isn’t human, but after birth it is. At conception we say it is always human, and don’t arbitrarily decide that at some random point it gains “humanness”

 

[holy_moly]

An un

fertilized egg also has DNA distinct from the mother. Why do you draw the line where you do? Why don’t you consider an unfertilized egg “its own organism”?

Here’s something I posted earlier that answers this: When does a human being come to exist? Following sperm-egg fusion, a single cell is generated, the human zygote or one cell embryo. To decide if this cell is a human being, as opposed to merely a human cell, we need to consider the difference between a cell & an organism. The key feature of an organism is that all of the parts of the organism work together in a coordinated manner for the good of the entity as a whole. In the case of the one-cell human embryo, the scientific evidence clearly indicates that all parts of the zygote- those contributed by the mother & by the father world together from the beginning in a highly coordinated way to promote the life, health & maturation of the embryo itself. The one-cell embryo functions like an organism to generate the structures & relationships that are required for its own, ongoing development- and it does this from the very moment of the sperm-egg fusion onward. The embryo functions from the beginning like an organism & is therefore a human being; a whole & complete member of the human species at the earliest stage of life.”

Are you assuming that I’m making some claim that the value of life is based on its degree of autonomy?