Pro Life versus Pro Choice Debate

[JaneGrey]

Reply to Jane Grey (sorry don’t know how to use the quote button)

Dont worry about it, took me a while to get it. By the way having read your post I think we already agree on most things and Im glad.

You said “women are perfectly capable of knowing fully what they are getting into when they have an abortion.”
I wish it were that simple but, not so. There is a lot of misinformation out here. Read my previous 40 days for life post.

I didnt mean for it to sound as if I thought it was simple, actually. Im well aware that abortion has been used against women countless times and that many times women are forced into it, and I think this is disgusting and deplorable. People are misled into it, Im not arguing with that. However, I personally know people and know of others who made the informed decision to do it. My point is that women are as capable as men of making this (if you see it as so) violent choice. In the cases Im talking about the only victim is the fetus. However despite my ambivalence about abortion itself, I strongly condemn anyone who tries to force a woman into it. It definitely is a violent act of murder in this case.

"

However there are many others who are not quite so unfortunate. What about not so poor women who do not regret their abortions? I think it would help to acknowledge that they exist."

Not so. You are right that wealthy, married women are also having abortions. It’s not just a poor women issue. But when it comes to post abortion trauma, the grief, and shame are the same for all of us, no matter what the reason to abort and our social position are.

I know there are well off women who have been traumatized by their decision and my heart goes out to all who are. Trauma affects everyone equally. I did not mean that if a woman was wealthy it would be all okay.

Amen! I don’t call women who abort murderers, sinners or selfish. I don’t think they should be prosecuted and imprisoned either. I can’t tell you how many stories I have heard about the pressure to abort, the lies of the doctors about the procedure and the side effects. Let’s not forget that abortion is a business and some people are making money. They don’t want women like me to speak up and tell the truth. They (the health care providers) know better. They know when life begins, they know what they are doing. They lie to people and a lot of women are very naive about abortion; all that they want is a way out of a difficult situation. But abortion is not the answer.

Thank you for this.I wish more people I come across in real life thought as you did. Again Im very sorry for those who are coerced into any type of medical procedure. To give you a bit of an idea of where Im coming from, this is also why I do not condemn abortion itself completely. Not sure if you know what i mean but i can elaborate later if you do not. Yes people make money from abortion, however I dont think all providers (especially ones that provide other services as well) have such purely selfish intentions. Many of these health care providers are themselves well informed women. If you have had a bad experience I applaud you for not being silent about it.I myself have been abused by a health care provider (not connected to abortion though). By all means speak up.
Based on my personal experience and what I have heard, I think an almost equal amount of women were not naive about what they were doing. However this is not that relevant, because we both agree that despite initial intentions, all these women need support rather than be judged.

I’m pro-life, pro-woman and pro-child. I am a feminist and I’m here to say: A pregnant woman needs support, not abortion.

Agreed. In an ideal world, I would not want to see abortions happening either.

 

[Caramel]

Well, your supposed " monkey wrench" does not undermine the pro-choice position based on the American policy of limited government and that society is not require to assume complete responsibility for this problem—that the women has a duty her given her intrinsic connection to the fetus and that govt can select different means (not just criminalizing all abortions under all circumstances) to attempt to protect the life of the fetus and otherwise deal with the abortion problem.

I dare you to walk up to the early fetus and say hey " You are just like that person born without limbs or eyes------but wait I guess you cannot do that since the fetus is inside the women and you cannot communicate to it can you ? So in that sense your analogy above is well…just that… an analogy only.

And I dare you to walk up to a person who is in a coma, on a breathing machine, being fed by IV, and tell her she is not a person because you can’t communicate with her because she probably can’t hear you, but she has been born and may or may not have all her limbs, but…

It does not matter if a person is aware of being a person. What matters is that she IS a person.

Not only that, but I fail to see where she even posted anything like an analogy.

 

[CWBetts]

Well, your supposed " monkey wrench" does not undermine the pro-choice position based on the American policy of limited government and that society is not require to assume complete responsibility for this problem—that the women has a duty her given her intrinsic connection to the fetus and that govt can select different means (not just criminalizing all abortions under all circumstances) to attempt to protect the life of the fetus and otherwise deal with the abortion problem.

I dare you to walk up to the early fetus and say hey " You are just like that person born without limbs or eyes------but wait I guess you cannot do that since the fetus is inside the women and you cannot communicate to it can you ? So in that sense your analogy above is well…just that… an analogy only.

America was not founded on any principle of limited government…learn your history.

 

[Caramel]

You kidding me…she already is!!! Its scary!!! However that be the case, shes so oblivious to it. She could care less if there are boys that are crushing on her. Shes made it perfectly clear to all her friends that she is to young to have a boy friend. She is not intrested in having boy friends…FRIENDS YES…not boyfriends. Shes got a very good head on her shoulders.

I am so proud of her and I am so proud of you!!

 

[beafedor]

Well, your supposed " monkey wrench" does not undermine the pro-choice position based on the American policy of limited government and that society is not require to assume complete responsibility for this problem—that the women has a duty her given her intrinsic connection to the fetus and that govt can select different means (not just criminalizing all abortions under all circumstances) to attempt to protect the life of the fetus and otherwise deal with the abortion problem.

I dare you to walk up to the early fetus and say hey " You are just like that person born without limbs or eyes------but wait I guess you cannot do that since the fetus is inside the women and you cannot communicate to it can you ? So in that sense your analogy above is well…just that… an analogy only.

Worthy5,
I’m trying hard to understand where you stand on the issue of abortion. In your posts, you are bringing things back to the “American policy of limited government”. That is distracting me (possibly others) from knowing your position on the subject. You said that abortion is horrible and I have the feeling that you are not an abortion supporter and yet you are arguing against some Pro-lifers on the thread. I will try to ask a simple question:

Are you opposed to abortion in all circumstances, no exceptions?
If your answer is No, in which cases is abortion acceptable:

-the mother is poor

-the mother has a bunch of kids already

-the mother is in an abusive relationship

-the mother finds herself pregnant and all alone

-having a child is going to interfere with her studies/career

-the baby/fetus was diagnosed with: disability, downs syndrome, spina bifida, heart failure, one or more genetic disorders…

-the mother has sky rocketing high blood pressure

-the mother was a victim of a sexual assault and conceived

-overpopulation

-other:

Thanks and anybody is welcome to fill this out and add their comments. I have phrased it the best I could (don’t forget that English is not my first language).

 

[Worthy5]

America was not founded on any principle of limited government…learn your history.

You are really saying that? You must be saying that in jest.

So then I guess you then have little regard for the Bill of Rights. And the U.S. Supreme Court, you know that institution that has the authority to say what the law is, stated in Roe

" This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment’s reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. " (underline added)

 

[CWBetts]

You are really saying that? You must be saying that in jest.

So then I guess you then have little regard for the Bill of Rights. And the U.S. Supreme Court, you know that institution that has the authority to say what the law is, stated in Roe

" This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment’s reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. " (underline added)

The United States was founded upon the principle of rich landowners getting mad about taxes. This is is irrefutable.

 

[Worthy5]

And I dare you

to walk up to a person who is in a coma, on a breathing machine, being fed by IV, and tell her she is not a person because you can’t communicate with her because she probably can’t hear you, but she has been born and may or may not have all her limbs, but…

It does not matter if a person is aware of being a person. What matters is that she IS a person.

Not only that, but I fail to see where she even posted anything like an analogy.

You guys are the ones that keep wanting to equate a born person with the early fetus—that is the analogy. You are doing that in order to have the govt criminalize abortion in the same way that it criminalize murder on a born person. Fine. You can have that position.

But another position is noting the distinction. The early fetus is NOT in the same position as a born person. It is a life but not in the same position--------it has been entrusted to the women. One rationale for a pro-choice position is as stated many times----it is the women’s duty to protect the life at that point and society, though it has an obligation, does not have to criminalize every abortion act, but rather can use other means to help the women fulfill her moral obligation—this also gives respect to the fact that this govt is not founded on the notion that it must solve every human problem. Because such a govt that does that inevitable ends up authoritarian.

This is a reasonable postition to have within the context of the American legal system. Just because one is morally against abortion does not mean one has to support an expansive use of govt police power in the attempt to prevent it—especially given the question whether such efforts actually would prevent abortions is in debate anyway.

 

[Worthy5]

The United States was founded upon the principle of rich landowners getting mad about taxes. This is is irrefutable.

True, but the Bill of Right and the 14th Amendment still exist. This poster has nothing further to say about " rich landowners" and " taxes"

 

[CWBetts]

You guys are the ones that keep wanting to equate a born person with the early fetus—that is the analogy. You are doing that in order to have the govt criminalize abortion in the same way that it criminalize murder on a born person. Fine. You can have that position.

But another position is noting the distinction. The early fetus is NOT in the same position as a born person. It is a life but not in the same position--------it has been entrusted to the women. One rationale for a pro-choice position is as stated many times----it is the women’s duty to protect the life at that point and society, though it has an obligation, does not have to criminalize every abortion act, but rather can use other means to help the women fulfill her moral obligation—this also gives respect to the fact that this govt is not founded on the notion that it must solve every human problem. Because such a govt that does that inevitable ends up authoritarian.

This is a reasonable postition to have within the context of the American legal system. Just because one is morally against abortion does not mean one has to support an expansive use of govt police power in the attempt to prevent it—especially given the question whether such efforts actually would prevent abortions is in debate anyway.

You, my friend, are wrong. Metaphysically they are the same. Stage of development is accident, but born or unborn, they both have the substance of personhood.

 

[Worthy5]

You, my friend, are wrong. Metaphysically they are the same. Stage of development is accident, but born or unborn, they both have the substance of personhood.

Metaphysically, but not legally my friend. You obviously do not know the difference.

What do you propose, to conduct government power according to metaphysics—a theory of everything. That is a big task for a government— it would require a very big government, a very autocratic government. Was that not the problem with Marxism?

 

[CWBetts]

Metaphysically, but not legally my friend. You obviously do not know the difference.

What do you propose, to conduct government power according to metaphysics—a theory of everything. That is a big task for a government— it would require a very big government, a very autocratic government. Was that not the problem with Marxism?

Considering that I am a Catholic, and do not worship the state and our form of government, no distinction should be made between the two

 

[CWBetts]

But I can understand why you might be afraid of the metaphysical argument. If you concede that the unborn is just as human as the rest of us, then that would mean that you would be arguing to allow unrestricted killing of human people to continue. So it is better for you to attempt to ridicule the metaphysics, rather than accept it.

 

[Worthy5]

Considering that I am a Catholic, and do not worship the state and our form of government, no distinction should be made between the two

So are you suggesting it is inconsistent for one to be a a catholic and an American citizen?

 

[Christopher68]

America was not founded on any principle of limited government…learn your history.

If you haven’t read it already, perhaps you should read the US Constitution. In particular, I would direct you to the 9th and 10th Amendments. These Amendments are in direct contradiction to your above statement.

 

[Worthy5]

But I can understand why you might be afraid of the metaphysical argument. If you concede that the unborn is just as human as the rest of us, then that would mean that you would be arguing to allow unrestricted killing of human people to continue. So it is better for you to attempt to ridicule the metaphysics, rather than accept it.

There you go again, suggesting that anyone or everyone is completely responsible for the immoral act of someone else. No where was it stated that abortion should not be heavily regulated and later terms abortion not criminalized. And who ridiculed the metaphysics–no one. But, for my own safety sake, I know that I do not want an autocratic government using its police power to enforce any brand metaphysics. With that you can kiss individual liberty and rights goodbye.:egyptian:

 

[CWBetts]

There you go again, suggesting that anyone or everyone should be responsible for the immoral act of someone else. And who ridiculed the metaphyics–no one. But, for my own safety sake, I know that I do not want an autocratic government using its police power to enforce any brand metaphysics. With that you can kiss individual liberty and rights goodbye.:egyptian:

I do not oppose the government enforcing the protection of life. I am not one to decree that some people are worth less than others. But I forget, you worship the Constitution and its judicial priesthood. Personally, I am more of a monarchist.

 

[Worthy5]

=CWBetts;5887218]I do not oppose the government enforcing the protection of life

.

Neither does this poster, the disagreement is over what means should be used and when.

I am not one to decree that some people are worth less than others.

Like Fix, you define how someone values something on whether they agree with you on how best to protect that value. That is your characterization. Drawing the line on govt power actually promotes the protection of individual rights.

But I forget, you worship the Constitution and its judicial priesthood. Personally, I am more of a monarchist.

A monarchist–wow. Your hero (and mine) Saint Thomas More lived under a monarchy and we know what happen to him. I prefer the American Democratic-Republic.

 

[CWBetts]

.

Neither does this poster, the disagreement is over what means should be used and when.

Like Fix, you define how someone values something on whether they agree with you on how best to protect that value. That is your characterization. Drawing the line on govt power actually promotes the protection of individual rights.

A monarchist–wow. Your hero (and mine) Saint Thomas More lived under a monarchy and we know what happen to him. I prefer the American Democratic-Republic.

If you really knew anything about St. Thomas More you woludn’t misuse his memory to push your own political agenda. By keeping abortion legal, you are culpable for every abortion that occurs by merely assenting to its legitimacy. If you truly thought abortion wrong, you would be opposed to it being legal. I find it sickening that you put your own freedoms above the rights of others. That degree of selfishness is pretty much the definition of evil.

 

[Christopher68]

If you really knew anything about St. Thomas More you woludn’t misuse his memory to push your own political agenda. By keeping abortion legal, you are culpable for every abortion that occurs by merely assenting to its legitimacy. If you truly thought abortion wrong, you would be opposed to it being legal. I find it sickening that you put your own freedoms above the rights of others. That degree of selfishness is pretty much the definition of evil.

I do not say this to be offensive, but your view of this issue in relation to laws and politics sounds like a ‘pie-in-the-sky’ viewpoint that perhaps a high school or college student would have, before they lived a little bit and understood the reality of government. The majority of us on this board believe abortion is wrong. However, while murder is universally recognized as wrong, abortion is not universally recognized as wrong. Because murder is universally recognized as wrong, laws against it are relatively easy to enforce. However, laws against practices that aren’t universally recognized as wrong almost always do more harm than good. And I think we’ve already established that government is incapable of changing someone’s heart or mind on the issue. I’m paraphrasing, but the OP said his goal in starting this thread was to get people to realize how bad abortion is. That is something that is done on an individual level. If you think the coercive power of government will positively affect this issue, you are mistaken.