Pro Life versus Pro Choice Debate

[CWBetts]

I am not trying to justify anything. I merely made the anaolgy (in response to the first anaolgy given) to hightlight the absurd logical conclusion of believing that fertilized eggs should bring about if that ideology was applied. I also wanted to highlight the fact, that even though folks oftentimes say they believe that a fertilzed egg=a human being, they wouldn’t even think to apply such an ideology in the real world. The position is too simplistic and ignores reality.

The fact that you reacted with such anger shows that critical thinking is something that you dislike

I reacted with anger because this scenario is idiotic. It is up to you to prove that stage of development is anything more than accident. What is it that makes a person a person. Good luck coming up with one that is consistent other than a fertilized egg is a person, because such distinctions are arbitrary. Of course I shouldn’t expect anything other than moral relativism coming from the ridiculously liberal arm of Anglicanism

 

[VARC]

Your analogy only proves that people under stress at times have to make snap decisions, it does not prove what is objectively right or wrong.

To be sure, a life is a life no matter who denies it.

If that firefighter saw a conscious 5 year and 5 unconscious 5 year olds, but not dead, would you claim saving the conscious one first was proof the unconscious ones were not really persons or do not deserve to be protected?

Of course not. I believe that yout scenario involves 6 kids. In the other scenario I believe that there is only one human being and a fridge full of cells.

 

[elts1956]

Who is Father John Corapi and what does this have to do with the personhood or human beingness of an unborn human??

Father John Corapi is a hard hitting in your face priest who gets it right. One of his quotes which I love is “You can’t be Catholic and be pro choice. Get it straight once and for all”. Why are you still talking about the personhood/human beingness of the unborn child. Logic would tell one that what is conceived in the human womb is human. It is the natural order of things given to us by God. Just imagine the horror of a woman (human, given personhood, or not) if she gave birth to a turtle. Go figure.

 

[CWBetts]

Of course not. I believe that yout scenario involves 6 kids. In the other scenario I believe that there is only one human being and a fridge full of cells.

What makes a person a person…I can’t wait to hear your arbitrary distinctions

 

[VARC]

I reacted with anger because this scenario is idiotic. It is up to you to prove that stage of development is anything more than accident. What is it that makes a person a person. Good luck coming up with one that is consistent other than a fertilized egg is a person, because such distinctions are arbitrary. Of course I shouldn’t expect anything other than moral relativism coming from the ridiculously liberal arm of Anglicanism

Wow. you’re pretty nasty. Intelligent conversation just burns you up doesn’t it? I don’t mind having a civil conversation but I would ask that you be respectful.

I kind of like George W. Bush’s definition. He said that we know that a heartbeat and brainwave activity are signs of life. When these signs are gone, a person has died. Inversely, when these signs appear we now have a human life. After they disappear, you have a lifeless corpse. Before they appear, you have a lifeless embryo.

I thought this was a good explantion. It avoids the absudity of killing a kicking baby in the womb and the need to rescue a tray of cells. Via media.

 

[Worthy5]

Father John Corapi is a hard hitting in your face priest who gets it right. One of his quotes which I love is “You can’t be Catholic and be pro choice. Get it straight once and for all”. Why are you still talking about the personhood/human beingness of the unborn child. Logic would tell one that what is conceived in the human womb is human. It is the natural order of things given to us by God. Just imagine the horror of a woman (human, given personhood, or not) if she gave birth to a turtle. Go figure.

I love Father Corapi. But in regards to the use of the govt police power, is it proper for the Church to dictate what U.S. law will and require that catholics must support that use of govt power?

 

[elts1956]

I love Father Corapi. But in regards to the use of the govt police power, is it proper for the Church to dictate what U.S. law will and require that catholics must support that use of govt power?

The CHURCH is dictating NOTHING. Moral law IS.

 

[Caramel]

Father John Corapi is a hard hitting in your face priest who gets it right. One of his quotes which I love is “You can’t be Catholic and be pro choice. Get it straight once and for all”. Why are you still talking about the personhood/human beingness of the unborn child. Logic would tell one that what is conceived in the human womb is human. It is the natural order of things given to us by God. Just imagine the horror of a woman (human, given personhood, or not) if she gave birth to a turtle. Go figure.

We are still talking about it because this is a polite debate and not all views have been heard and discussed. No matter how much you want it to be simple, the abortion issue is very complex. It is not black and white. You have not been here for the last 800 some posts. There have been people here who have poured their hearts out in their posts; I have been one of them. If you want to complain about a debate I suggest you take it up with the moderator. I have no sympathy for a person who jumps in at the last second and proceeds to imply that we are stupid.

 

[Caramel]

Wow. you’re pretty nasty. Intelligent conversation just burns you up doesn’t it? I don’t mind having a civil conversation but I would ask that you be respectful.

I kind of like George W. Bush’s definition. He said that we know that a heartbeat and brainwave activity are signs of life. When these signs are gone, a person has died. Inversely, when these signs appear we now have a human life. After they disappear, you have a lifeless corpse. Before they appear, you have a lifeless embryo.

I thought this was a good explantion. It avoids the absudity of killing a kicking baby in the womb and the need to rescue a tray of cells. Via media.

I leave it up to you to tell the man who has suffered a heart attack and coded that when he did not have a pulse and measurable brain waves HE WAS NOT A HUMAN LIFE.

 

[gakroeger]

Wow. you’re pretty nasty. Intelligent conversation just burns you up doesn’t it? I don’t mind having a civil conversation but I would ask that you be respectful.

I kind of like George W. Bush’s definition. He said that we know that a heartbeat and brainwave activity are signs of life. When these signs are gone, a person has died. Inversely, when these signs appear we now have a human life. After they disappear, you have a lifeless corpse. Before they appear, you have a lifeless embryo.

I thought this was a good explantion. It avoids the absudity of killing a kicking baby in the womb and the need to rescue a tray of cells. Via media.

Wow, your opinion is better than proven science? Even pro choice scientists do not make claims like this. Can you support your opinion with any scientific evidence?

Would you expect civil conversation if someone close to you was being murdered? Why do you expect people to remain calm and civil when the most innocent among us is being murdered?

Anglican theology is not that far from Catholic, do you not believe that God created that embryo that you dismiss as a collection of cells?

 

[gakroeger]

We are still talking about it because this is a polite debate and not all views have been heard and discussed. No matter how much you want it to be simple, the abortion issue is very complex. It is not black and white. You have not been here for the last 800 some posts. There have been people here who have poured their hearts out in their posts; I have been one of them. If you want to complain about a debate I suggest you take it up with the moderator. I have no sympathy for a person who jumps in at the last second and proceeds to imply that we are stupid.

Caramel, with all due respect, abortion is black and white just as truth is truth over lies and right is right over wrong.

 

[Caramel]

What makes a person a person…I can’t wait to hear your arbitrary distinctions

LOL you’ll have to wait until the next debate because this one is shutting down.

That is, unless gakroeger or someone else starts a Part 2. Can we do that??

 

[Caramel]

Caramel, with all due respect, abortion is black and white just as truth is truth over lies and right is right over wrong.

What I am saying is that the entire abortion issue is not black and white. Truth is always black and white. But there are other things to consider, yes, like laws and biology and whether someone is a Catholic. That is what I meant. I still believe (and I will never change my mind) that a new human being is formed at conception and is a person and will be one throughout her entire life. But society does play a role in how she is protected. That is what is not black and white.

 

[VARC]

I leave it up to you to tell the man who has suffered a heart attack and coded that when he did not have a pulse and measurable brain waves HE WAS NOT A HUMAN LIFE.

A person such as that would be dead. The lack of brain waves plus the lack of a heartbeat gives you a lifeless corpse.

 

[VARC]

Wow, your opinion is better than proven science? Even pro choice scientists do not make claims like this. Can you support your opinion with any scientific evidence?

Would you expect civil conversation if someone close to you was being murdered? Why do you expect people to remain calm and civil when the most innocent among us is being murdered?

Anglican theology is not that far from Catholic, do you not believe that God created that embryo that you dismiss as a collection of cells?

LOL. Go bomb a clinic if you feel that way. In a civil society, respectful discussion is what is appropriate in this situation. If you are feel that a more militant approach is necessary, then go why are you here instead of murdering abortion doctors?

 

[gakroeger]

What I am saying is that the entire abortion issue is not black and white. Truth is always black and white. But there are other things to consider, yes, like laws and biology and whether someone is a Catholic. That is what I meant. I still believe (and I will never change my mind) that a new human being is formed at conception and is a person and will be one throughout her entire life. But society does play a role in how she is protected. That is what is not black and white.

The only thing that make abortion fuzzy in some peoples minds is their inability to accept the moral law that is written on their hearts. Religion has nothing to do with it, everyone knows deep in their hearts that abortion is wrong, black an white. We were all created as good beings but we some times fail to follow our hearts and fall victim to the urgings of the ones the fell before us (the fallen angels).

 

[elts1956]

We are still talking about it because this is a polite debate and not all views have been heard and discussed. No matter how much you want it to be simple, the abortion issue is very complex. It is not black and white. You have not been here for the last 800 some posts. There have been people here who have poured their hearts out in their posts; I have been one of them. If you want to complain about a debate I suggest you take it up with the moderator. I have no sympathy for a person who jumps in at the last second and proceeds to imply that we are stupid.

I have “debated” the abortion issue til I am blue in the face, not just on this thread. The answers and excuses by those who “just can’t seem to make up their minds”, or gee “we can’t impose our values on anyone else” haven’t read their history, or paid close attention to what the Church teaches and the Magisterium says.

I suppose the crux of it, the issue is black and white. Emotions are not. I commiserate with those who have poured out their hearts on this thread. It is a confusing issue to those who let it be confusing. I judge no one in that I will say what their eternal end will be, just as I don’t really know what mine will be. But I do know “in my heart”, “in my mind” what Intrinsic Evil is and abortion is an Intrinsic Evil. Yes, some lose hope in God when faced with what they perceive as burdens. But if all women throughout all civilizations felt “they just couldn’t handle one more thing” such as another baby, or even their first one, a lot of us wouldn’t be here. This is NOT a religious issue, but a MORAL one. Logic and common sense would dictate this. The dogmas of the Church have taught us throughout the ages, “Thou shalt not kill”. That is not a religious command, but a moral and practical one. We need to listen to common sense and strengthen our morals and values. I have no patience any longer with people who can’t take responsibility for their own actions.

 

[gakroeger]

LOL. Go bomb a clinic if you feel that way. In a civil society, respectful discussion is what is appropriate in this situation. If you are feel that a more militant approach is necessary, then go why are you here instead of murdering abortion doctors?

I am not so inclined. But I am inclined to pray outside of a clinic where the helpless are being murdered.

Why do you ignore the more important questions?

 

[Caramel]

Stick em in the refrigerator. Some will be worthless but some would be viable.

Good answer. I hope there is one available so they do not die while in transport.

Well, then why do pro-life people oppose stem cell research? They use the discarded ovam from fertility clinics.

Some stem cell research uses cells from embryos. Embryos are living human beings. That is why prolifers oppose it. It is not a problem when stem cells are used from the umbilical cord or bone marrow of donors.

You tell me. You seem like a loyal catholic. Would you save the eggs so that they could be refrigerated and possibly transferred? Are they of more value than the single woman?

Take a look at the description of my religion.

They are both of value. They are all living human beings. Yes I would save the eggs if I could.

The only thing that is absurd is the oversimplication many pro-life persons have made of the issue. The analogy highlghts the problem with your thinking that is why, instead of really pondering it, you just lash out at the guy who made the point.

Now I am being told by one poster that I am over-simplifying while another poster tells me that it is black and white.

What is absurd is that some people pop in in the last few posts, make their points and disappear.

 

[gakroeger]

Good answer. I hope there is one available so they do not die while in transport.

Some stem cell research uses cells from embryos. Embryos are living human beings. That is why prolifers oppose it. It is not a problem when stem cells are used from the umbilical cord or bone marrow of donors.

Take a look at the description of my religion.

They are both of value. They are all living human beings. Yes I would save the eggs if I could.

Now I am being told by one poster that I am over-simplifying while another poster tells me that it is black and white.

What is absurd is that some people pop in in the last few posts, make their points and disappear.

Hi Caramel, if you watch carefully you will see the people who attempt to complicate the issue are those who are not following the moral position.