Pro-Potter or Anti-Potter?

[cecilia97]

Love the books. I don’t have kids. I think the later books in the series are not “childrens” books neccesarily, but I can imagine I would have read them as a kid anyway.

Why? First, I found them really entertaining! Then the more serious reasons:

Little morality lessons are peppered throughout the books. I suspected where the series was going to end up as soon as we first read about Harry’s patronus…it’s an ancient animal symbol of kingship and sacrifice (even of Christ in some cultures) that Rowling, with a background in mythology, would well know the significance. And the running theme is love versus death. Finally, in the last book, Rowling sums up the theme by directly quoting the New Testament:

“The last enemy to be destroyed is death”
1 Corinthians 15:26

 

[Baptista]

The context, as I see it, was the “Dumbledore Controversy”, and not a general “What do you think of the writin?”

No, I went back and re-read the original question on this thread, and I’m pretty sure I got it right, that it’s about the book series and not the “Dumbledore Controversy”, although I read another thread about that earlier today.

Are you unaware of the “Dumbledore has [at least] SSA!!” post-writing announcement?

I couldn’t possibly be unaware of it. It’s everywhere, it’s everywhere.

Has she stated that Dumbledore is and always has been chaste, in the Catholic sense of the word?

If she has, then I’m once again a huge fan of HP…!

If she hasn’t, then she’s left us in an “odd state” as to being able to support a potential anti-Catholic work of literature.

No, Rowling has not stated, that I am aware of, that Dumbledore is and always has been chaste, nor am I aware that she’s stated the reverse. Again…in the books there are no, zip, nada references to any homosexual inclinations, acted upon or not. Nothing. So how they could possibly be considered an anti-Catholic work of literature when they contain nothing about homosexuality is beyond me.

Not to mention, if this ‘back story’ of hers has to do with (as I’ve read some say) his ‘attraction’ to the dark wizard Grindlewald (I think that’s spelled right), then that happened when Dumbledore was a young man. And the two of them craved power. Grindlewald turned dark. Dumbledore didn’t. He dueled this wizard to the death. For the side of good, he fought evil. If he had a sexual attraction toward this wizard, he obviously fought it, and overcame it. Otherwise he wouldn’t have fought him. And yes, killed him. Again, nothing about this tendency is mentioned in the books. If people would ‘let it go’ then the controversy would die out.

I think I’ve fixed the wacky formatting, which is ALWAYS a bane to correct once it’s gotten mucked up.

Thank you!!

…And LotR (any one of them) always makes me cry when I watch it.

I’m such a sentimental sappy fellow.

I love LOTR!

And I guess I screwed the quote thingie up again. Sorry… I dunno what I’m doing wrong!

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:Has she stated that Dumbledore is and always has been chaste, in the Catholic sense of the word?

If she has, then I’m once again a huge fan of HP…!

If she hasn’t, then she’s left us in an “odd state” as to being able to support a potential anti-Catholic work of literature.

No, Rowling has not stated, that I am aware of, that Dumbledore is and always has been chaste, nor am I aware that she’s stated the reverse. Again…in the books there are no, zip, nada references to any homosexual inclinations, acted upon or not. Nothing.

So how they could possibly be considered an anti-Catholic work of literature when they contain nothing about homosexuality is beyond me.

The HP books now contain, by verbal addition of the author of them, an explicit FACT that “Dumbledore is [at least] SSA.”

That does not make it anti-Catholic.

What makes it POTENTIALLY anti-Catholic is it’s uncertainty as to the works acceptance of what SSA sometimes leads to, which are homosexual-sex-acts.

Would you allow your child to play with a toy that MIGHT be a bomb, after being TOLD by the manufacturer that it has a potentially but not necessarily explosive chemical in it?

How “lovingly familiar” would you let your child become toward such a thing?

How would you feel about the manufacturer waiting to tell you of this toy’s little “quirk” until AFTER she’s sold one into every third household on the planet, and done so by making them nearly ADDICTIVE in their appeal to children?

Dumbledore being SSA AND once practicing, or even presently (story-wise) practicing, COULD be handled in a very Catholic friendly way, and I’m sure JK has the skill to do so.

But that she leaves the “possible bomb” in place and offers no clarification that would calm the nerves of a population that is all too familiar with being abused by anti-Catholic media subterfuge tells me that $$$'s are more important to JK than the “nerves” of her Catholic readers, and in response I choose to utterly boycott her work until she shows more charity than she has to date.

If you don’t mind supporting such a person, go for it.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jmcrae]

Keikalou;

When she created Dumbledore, she didn’t realize until later that she had given him the combo-pak of personality traits that cause homosexuality.

While she was writing him, she probably didn’t realize that she was doing that - it most likely was not intentional. (It happens. Writers often talk about being surprised at how their characters turned out, at the end of the story.)

After the fact, she looks at him, and realizes, “Oh - he’s gay!” Whups. Oh, well.

 

[Baptista]

Keikalou;

When she created Dumbledore, she didn’t realize until later that she had given him the combo-pak of personality traits that cause homosexuality.

While she was writing him, she probably didn’t realize that she was doing that - it most likely was not intentional. (It happens. Writers often talk about being surprised at how their characters turned out, at the end of the story.)

After the fact, she looks at him, and realizes, “Oh - he’s gay!” Whups. Oh, well.

Kiekalou,

What jmcrae said is a good example of what could have happened.

But again…Dumbledore is a character in a series of books that are finished. The story is over. Dumbledore is shall I say it?

SPOILER ALERT!! don’t read the rest of my post if you haven’t finished the books and don’t want to know about Dumbledore’s fate.

As I was saying, the character of Dumbledore is dead. And the books are finished. If Rowling decided in the future to continue on with the stories, he would not be in them except as a person"from the past". And if she decided to do a whole other story about Dumbledore’s life, then people would be forewarned that homosexuality could be a theme. They could not buy it, not read it. Or they could, and see for themselves what it contains and whether it would be a good or bad example of how Christians should handle those tendencies.

As for the present series of books - Harry Potter one through seven, I stand by my opinion. I like them. I do hope the current controversy over Dumbledore’s tendencies won’t color the story when I re-read the books. And I do plan to re-read them one after the other for continuity one of these days.

 

[Joe_5859]

Here is an interesting take on the recent Dumbledore revelation. It begins with the provocative statement:

“J. K. Rowling is wrong. Albus Dumbledore is not gay.”

I found the link through Nancy Brown’s blog. She is the author of The Mystery of Harry Potter: A Catholic Family Guide, a very helpful book on putting the whole HP phenomenon in persepctive. I also noticed that she linked to this thread from her blog. I’ve never been linked to before!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I’m still pro-Potter-books, but I think Rowling behaved like a jackass.

 

[goofyjim]

I wish that there had been a choice for totally indifferent about Potter as it doesn’t concern me at all.

 

[Elmtree]

Would you allow your child to play with a toy that MIGHT be a bomb, after being TOLD by the manufacturer that it has a potentially but not necessarily explosive chemical in it?
.

The thing is, everything in this fallen world has some explosive in it. Part of my job as a parent is to teach my kids to discern, and find the wheat in the weeds. One can look at even Lord of the Rings and find problematic things in it. But in balance, there is far more good than bad (in LOTR far far far more good than bad).

I’ve never felt Harry Potter is a children’s story. I detest the marketing of these books to young children. Of course, I think by the extreme reactions of some Christians early on, we sort of handed off the marketing to ‘the dark side’ so to speak.

I think HP is okay for well formed older kids and adults as a norm - like many other books. Each parent has to decide if the book is appropriate for their family.

And I’m sure someone will say “but why even consider a book that has to be so scrutinized?” I’d say “you better be scrutinizing most other books your kids read the same way”. I find far more problems in many secular books than I do in Harry Potter.

Heck, MacBeth is NOT a tale for little kids, but that doesn’t mean I’d bad it from my house. I’d not read it as a bedtime story to a six year old, either.

Book 7 of Harry Potter was the test for me… I read each book with caution, but continued to find no major problems and lots of good stuff (for older kids). In book 7 I found some tremendous Christian ideas, and one major problem (which through discussion we dealt with, and learned alot about Catholic teaching on what is appropriate in war and what is not).

The thing is, whatever the author intended, the books gave us a LOT to discuss, in light of our faith. Can valid criticisms be made of the stories or parts of them? Yup, I think so. But most of the concerns I hear raised seem to me to have no bearing on what is really in the stories.

 

[jmcrae]

And I’m sure someone will say “but why even consider a book that has to be so scrutinized?” I’d say “you better be scrutinizing most other books your kids read the same way”. I find far more problems in many secular books than I do in Harry Potter.

I’m sure you meant “other secular books” - Harry Potter is definitely a secular book, too.

Heck, MacBeth is NOT a tale for little kids, but that doesn’t mean I’d bad it from my house. I’d not read it as a bedtime story to a six year old, either.

I had nightmares after reading it at the age of 17. But it’s a classic of English literature, and if we are to be educated people, it’s one of the stories that we need to know.

 

[estesbob]

I’m sure you meant “other secular books” - Harry Potter is definitely a secular book, too.

I had nightmares after reading it at the age of 17. But it’s a classic of English literature, and if we are to be educated people, it’s one of the stories that we need to know.

I suppose Rowling could come out tomorrow and tell us that Harry’s uncle was a space alien or he was an axe murderer but it wouldn’t matter. Her books rise and fall on their own and once she has published them her opinion is no more valid than mine.Unless she can show us anywhere in the seven books where there is even a hint that Dumbledore’s is gay my opinion will continue to be is not.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I suppose Rowling could come out tomorrow and tell us that Harry’s uncle was a space alien or he was an axe murderer but it wouldn’t matter. Her books rise and fall on their own and once she has published them her opinion is no more valid than mine.Unless she can show us anywhere in the seven books where there is even a hint that Dumbledore’s is gay my opinion will continue to be is not.

There isn’t. Not one speck of it. It was power Dumbledore fell in love with, not some other wizard.

And I just re-read the last few chaps of Book 7 AFTER hearing her ‘announcement.’

 

[Keikiolu]

Keikalou;

When she created Dumbledore, she didn’t realize until later that she had given him the combo-pak of personality traits that cause homosexuality.

While she was writing him, she probably didn’t realize that she was doing that - it most likely was not intentional. (It happens. Writers often talk about being surprised at how their characters turned out, at the end of the story.)

After the fact, she looks at him, and realizes, “Oh - he’s gay!” Whups. Oh, well.

I don’t CARE if he’s “gay”…!

I simply want to know how he feels about him having either performed, or not performed, homosexual-sex-acts with an “attracted to” person.

While I’ll grant that authors are often “surprised” by their creation’s attributes, authors are still in control OF those attributes and the results of those attributes.

Until JK tells me whether Dumbledore has been unremorsefully unchaste (a bad thing), or not (a good thing), I’m left not being able to recommend Dumbledore as a good example of a person, which he is offered as by the author, and by extension am left unable to support JK’s works as healthy for children.

Are you prepared to recommend a work put forward as a children’s morality tale where a main character is unrepentantly immoral…?

Since I don’t know WHETHER the author will put me in the position of suggesting that IMMORALITY is MORAL,… I can’t take the chance that I will have “slipped the bomb under the nursery door” by doing so…!

Is that REALLY so hard to accept as my reasoning?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you prepared to recommend a work put forward as a children’s morality tale where a main character is unrepentantly immoral…?

Since when on God’s green earth was Harry Potter ever put forward as a children’s morality tale?

Never, that I know of.

In any case, Dumbledore’s private life is never revealed in any of the books, and it seems as though he was in his office both night and day - so I think it’s pretty safe to assume that he was chaste.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t CARE if he’s “gay”…!

I simply want to know how he feels about him having either performed, or not performed, homosexual-sex-acts with an “attracted to” person.

While I’ll grant that authors are often “surprised” by their creation’s attributes, authors are still in control OF those attributes and the results of those attributes.

Until JK tells me whether Dumbledore has been unremorsefully unchaste (a bad thing), or not (a good thing), I’m left not being able to recommend Dumbledore as a good example of a person, which he is offered as by the author, and by extension am left unable to support JK’s works as healthy for children.

Are you prepared to recommend a work put forward as a children’s morality tale where a main character is unrepentantly immoral…?

Since I don’t know WHETHER the author will put me in the position of suggesting that IMMORALITY is MORAL,… I can’t take the chance that I will have “slipped the bomb under the nursery door” by doing so…!

Is that REALLY so hard to accept as my reasoning?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

’
Yes it is. To be honest it is the typical gross overeaction we have seen from the day the first book came out. And the problem to me is after 12 years of yelling wolf when people tell me the Golden Compass should be avoided my first reaction is to ignore them.

 

[estesbob]

Since when on God’s green earth was Harry Potter ever put forward as a children’s morality tale?

Never, that I know of.

In any case, Dumbledore’s private life is never revealed in any of the books, and it seems as though he was in his office both night and day - so I think it’s pretty safe to assume that he was chaste.

well I dont know-winky was missing for a while…

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

’
Yes it is. To be honest it is the typical gross overeaction we have seen from the day the first book came out. And the problem to me is after 12 years of yelling wolf when people tell me the Golden Compass should be avoided my first reaction is to ignore them.

Except that The Golden Compass was written by an avowed atheist who kills God in the book and then says everyone can do what he pleases.

 

[estesbob]

Except that The Golden Compass was written by an avowed atheist who kills God in the book and then says everyone can do what he pleases.

You might be right-but being I have heard \worst said about the Potter Book people are likely to be skeptical of this claim.

 

[Jestocost]

I’m curious. Those who say that Rowlings announcement that Dumbledore is gay has ruined the series for you; would your reaction have been the same if she said he’d had a variety of female partners? Or a live-in girlfriend? Once had an affair with a married woman? How about if she just said he had a girlfriend? I’ve not seen anything to suggest that she believes in chastity before marriage. Are promiscuity, fornication, and adultery not as sinful as SSA? Is there any less of a campaign to make these sins socially acceptable?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I’m curious. Those who say that Rowlings announcement that Dumbledore is gay has ruined the series for you; would your reaction have been the same if she said he’d had a variety of female partners? Or a live-in girlfriend? Once had an affair with a married woman? How about if she just said he had a girlfriend? I’ve not seen anything to suggest that she believes in chastity before marriage. Are promiscuity, fornication, and adultery not as sinful as SSA? Is there any less of a campaign to make these sins socially acceptable?

I would feel the same way about that. Just gross and sleazy and utterly un-necessary, not supported in the text.

Golden Compass, unlike the HP series, IS indeed the work of an avowed atheist whose book exists to tell kids that when they kill God they get to do what they want and be happy.

NOTHING like that ever took place in HP. The word God is mentioned numerous times in the last book of the series.