Problem of Evil (again): Logic [intro]

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MPat:
Could it be that you (and, perhaps, other atheists) actually expect that “proper” evidence is going to be direct observation or something pretty similar?
No…
Good.

Then, how is the fact that we can’t observe the mind of someone else supposed to be relevant here?

After all, if you agree that evidence does not have to be based on direct observation, it does follow that this fact does not prevent us from having evidence about mind of someone else, even if we can’t observe it directly (and, in fact, we do have such evidence).

And if we have such evidence, we can use it (since no objection concerning that was offered).

And if, using such evidence, we reach the conclusion that contradicts what that “someone else” is claiming about his mind, there is nothing wrong with that. People can be mistaken or lie, thus this state of affairs is neither impossible nor implausible.

Do you see anything wrong with this reasoning, or can we drop that objection and see if you have any other?
 
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Freddy:
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MPat:
Could it be that you (and, perhaps, other atheists) actually expect that “proper” evidence is going to be direct observation or something pretty similar?
No…
Good.

Then, how is the fact that we can’t observe the mind of someone else supposed to be relevant here?

After all, if you agree that evidence does not have to be based on direct observation, it does follow that this fact does not prevent us from having evidence about mind of someone else, even if we can’t observe it directly (and, in fact, we do have such evidence).

And if we have such evidence, we can use it (since no objection concerning that was offered).

And if, using such evidence, we reach the conclusion that contradicts what that “someone else” is claiming about his mind, there is nothing wrong with that. People can be mistaken or lie, thus this state of affairs is neither impossible nor implausible.

Do you see anything wrong with this reasoning, or can we drop that objection and see if you have any other?
Are you saying that people can lie about what they’re thinking?
 
Are you saying that people can lie about what they’re thinking?
That’s just one, most trivial fragment.

What I am saying covers more.

First, it is not just about thoughts, but also about character traits, competences, beliefs and the like.

Second, it is not just that people can lie to others, but also that they can be mistaken. Or they can be “in denial”, deceiving themselves, when they find the lie much more pleasant than the truth.

One variant of this is known as “Dunning-Kruger effect”. But there are many variants. For example, when a student who gets a failing grade on a quiz complains that he was studying hard, but, in fact, what he counts as “studying hard” is what professor would count as “hardly studying” (and, as the results of quiz show, professor is right).

And such cases are far more dangerous than mere lying to others.

Which is precisely why I am strongly against just assuming that someone knows what he is talking about, has looked at the evidence honestly and thoroughly etc.

For, well, what if you didn’t?

What if you just skimmed the text, not even noticing some of the words?

Would you have noticed that? Would you admit that to yourself?

After all, you have a clear conflict of interest: it is far more pleasant to think you did a good job, know what you are talking about, look at evidence honestly, are good at working with evidence, are “a good person” etc.

And thus it is very suspicious when such claims are not supported independently.

And I would strongly recommend you to be very careful here. Look for at least some independent confirmation. There are many such techniques for various things, like listing all the steps in argument explicitly and checking if each of them follows, using a checklist (like the ones made for examination of conscience), various certifications, exams.
 
Which is precisely why I am strongly against just assuming that someone knows what he is talking about, has looked at the evidence honestly and thoroughly etc.
OK. I’ll assume that you haven’t.
 
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