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wisdomseeker
Guest
Does that mean that Sacred Scriptures do contradict each other?
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Publisher
Guest
You’ll need to talk to Rinnie about “speaking out of both sides” of one’s mouth…she’s the one in the know…
Sorry Rinnie…couldn’t resist.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Ah, but St Paul does say, to work out our salvation with fear and tremble. what does that means to you?With an indictment of “speaking out of both sides of my mouth”…I don’t see how we can discuss without such accusations being leveled at one another…do you?..usually when someone speaks “out of both sides of their mouth” they are being “decietful”…
Again…you are speaking past me…our works determine our “place in the Kingdom”…salvation is ours already because of our faith in Christ and what He has done for us…sanctification is an ongoing process of which good works…which have been prepared for us to do…are part of…Christ cleanses us from ALL sin’s guilt…we cannot “work our way into heaven”…we cannot “work our way into God’s grace”…it is a free gift which we cannot earn…it is freely bestowed upon us because of God’s grace through faith.
I’m not too concerned about a “mythical devil”…but then again…we are using “different languages”…
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wisdomseeker
Guest
But I want you to answer for me.You’ll need to talk to Rinnie about “speaking out of both sides” of one’s mouth…she’s the one in the know…
Sorry Rinnie…couldn’t resist.
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Publisher
Guest
Sacred scripture are not infallible…nor are they inerrant…they offer many opposing views…historically I think the letter of James may have been a reaction against some of Paul’s teachings…and perhaps Hebrews was a reaction with James…don’t know…it is a “supposition” set forth by some biblical scholars…
The Bible does not speak as a “unified whole”…I realize you believe differently.
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rinnie
Guest
Keep it up Pub, Keep it up! Na you got to take a shot when you can, especially when its in fun.You’ll need to talk to Rinnie about “speaking out of both sides” of one’s mouth…she’s the one in the know…
Sorry Rinnie…couldn’t resist.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Now , I understand why you believe what you believe. So, you believe that the apostles were not in agreement. I see. so, where do you draw you belief from?
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wisdomseeker
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I may ask you lots of questions. Here goes another one. If the apostles tought differnet things to the people, which apostle do you rely on for the Truth?
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rinnie
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Publisher
Guest
Now this WILL cause raised eye brows I’m sure…but I’ll give the short version.
What survives as Christianity is only one “type” of one of many differing sects in those first few centuries…certainly the most popular version…and a product of Paul more than anyone else.
We have no surviving writing of any of the original 12…we know that Paul actually wrote epistles…some are his undisputed work…the pastoral are “forgeries” using Paul’s name…a common practice…we know that James did not write the “Protoevangelion of Mary”…
The New Testatament is a witness of what those in the second and third generation of Christians came to believe…and this group gained pre-eminence over the other competing groups of “Christians”.
With the discovery of Nag Hamaddi we know a more about the Christian Gnostics that so “plauged” the “proto-orthodox/catholic” faction of Christianity…the “proto-orthodox/catholic” group was very well connected…so well connected in fact it was one of the political reasons Christianity was named state religion under Constantine…he saw the benefit of a single faith for Rome…and had a ready made network of bishops to use as necessary. After the Arian controversy this group now calling themselves “catholic” and “orthodox” gained authority to supress all other “groups” of the people called “Christian”…books burned…followers exiled at times…eventually “the sword” was used to supress “heresy”.
My own opinion was the Ebionites were probably the closest to the authentic teachings of the original 12…what survives is really a legacy to Paul of Tarsus…not the 12…or even Jesus of Nazareth.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I see. so, the surviving of the CC for two thousand years has nothing to do with God’s plan, correct?
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Publisher
Guest
In so far as all creation is governed by God’s permissive will. The survival of the Catholic church was not by divine decree…no…it’s survival is no more a “testament” to “God’s plan” than was the Reformation.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Really? so, besides being saved by Grace, what other teachings of Jesus do you believe?
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Publisher
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Those of which causes me to seek to live at peace with those around me and share in his incarnation in our world…“He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.”
I do not believe I must ascribe to the “faith promoting” history that the Christian church has presented to the world…I want a living faith…a faith that does not shy from biblical criticism, science, psychology, sociology etc…but can see life as sacred…that the world’s religions are ALL searches for Divine Truth…Truth is something we live…not something we necessarily believe in…God’s Light is within us all…I seek to honor and speak to “that of God” within our shared incarnation…
It matters more in the greater scheme of things on how I respond to my neighbor than how my neighbor responds to me…how do I live in Truth and still call my self “Christian”.
I must satify that answer for myself about God…I am on a Journey…and I don’t have all the answers…I frame some of my questions and answers in “Christian words”…for to me…that makes the mose sense…I am a Friend because I believe in it’s “mythological” rendering of God and the message of Jesus of Nazareth…that I might disagree on “doctrine”, “dogma” or “history” doesn’t relieve me of the burden to “be leaven” in this world…to be kind…to show mercy…to seek peace and to be His Hands and Feet and to speak with His Voice to a world desparately in need of love, mercy, kindness…
I don’t claim to have the answers…but I believe in One Who does…and when I fail and fall and doubt and wonder…there is mercy and grace for me.
That I see God in history in the man Jesus…that I beleive that somehow God entered our humanity in Jesus of Nazareth…and His best and final Word was “Jesus” to show us the way Home…and to make a better Home here…the 'creeds" of Christianity do not answer all my questions…I believe the Journey and the Questions are more important than the destination and the answer someone might give me.
I seek to “work out my own salvation in fear and trembling”…it is a weighty thing to hold one’s spiritual developement in one’s own hands…I’m glad there is One to share my walk and I am thankful for those who share it with me…I can always gain new insights and “openings” from seeking to understand what other’s believe.
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PJM
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WELCOME TO THE FORUM!
The issue here is what we term “cupable ignorance” which ask: what does a person know and what CAN a person know.
One incurs no guilt for being incorrectly taught. But all of us have a moral obligation to “seek the singular truth of any issue.” This is further complicated in that your friend thinks they DO HAVE THE TRUTH.
The position of OSAS in not found in the Bible and actually teaches against what the Bibles does Teach.
The MOST BASIC RULE of right Bible understanding is that “NO ONE PASSAGE CAN CONTRADICT ANOTHER” were this a posibility the bible would be of NO VALUE at all.
Because of space limitations; I’m forced to be very brief. SEND ME A PM if you’d like more details
“Take up YOUR cross an follow ME” is found 5 times in the NT. That is as often as the REAL PRESENCE, so the message HAS TO BE CRITICAL.
The following passages all contradict the position articulated by your friend [tis is the short list]
Matt.16: 19 [Jesus speaking to Peter] “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, [DONE DEAL!] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
In other words all access to heaven must flow from now on through the CC and what She Teaches
John.3: 5; 16; 36 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, *but that the world might be saved through him. *
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; **he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. **
John 20:19-23 "John.20 Verses 19 to 23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
NOTE: Jesus is sending Peter and the apostles with THE SAME POWERS AND AUTHORITY THAT THE FATHER SENT JESUS! [This is the institution of the CC]
Among these powers is THROUGH GOD; the power to remit [not forgive] sins.
**Mt. 19:17 ** "And he [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
This means Mortal- SIN WILL keep one out of heaven if not confesses and remitted
** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **
There is MUCH more but all of this can be found in the KJ bible.
Let me know if I can help further,
God Bless,
Pat
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wisdomseeker
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Live faith. interesting. how do you have a living faith if you dont know in what to believe?
Like you said, you dont have the answers.
do you believe that Jesus is the only Son of God? do you believe that Jesus is 100% true God and true Man?
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Easter_Joey
Guest
Faith alone is pretty easy to understand. It means you are saved only by faith, and works are in no way necessary for salvation (loving God, etc). This is only for conservative Protestants (especially conservative Lutherans). That is what faith alone really is. What most Protestants mean by faith alone is that we are saved (initially) by faith alone, but faith can’t be alone (without works you can’t be saved). The problem with this is that faith isn’t alone, so you aren’t saved by faith alone - it’s now faith and works. Another problem is that we aren’t saved by faith alone in anyway, because to be saved it must be faith working in love. Denominations like the ELCA mean formed faith alone, so basically faith working in love. It’s all semantics. Makes me wonder why (most) Lutherans don’t become Catholic. 
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
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Publisher
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The scriptures are a guide…the “collective wisdom of our spiritual forebeareers”…as are the writings of the great spiritual thinkers…and exploring together with my spiritual community to assist one another in discerning the will of God in our lives. God is known “experientially”…I didn’t say I “don’t know what to believe”…I just don’t have all the answers. I have formulated beliefs that answer many “religious questions” for me…I may not frame my beliefs in the exact words you woud wish me to…but for one who believes that living in Truth, it wouldn’t be Truthful to embrace beliefs I cannot fully explain and claim that they are 'un-alterable Truth"…human language cannot convey Eternal Truth fully…“we see through a glass darkly…but then face to face WE WILL KNOW…”
I seek to live a life which exemplifies “faith”…faith by doing…not faith by “believing” in certian “doctrines and dogmas”…through experiencing the Divine Reality within my own life and through the life of the faith community I belong to…we are all Seekers…and none of us has all the answers…I believe in Holy Mystery…God is Ineffable…beyond us…to seek to understand God…I look to the man Jesus…the last Word that God spoke.
As to your question…“God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”…“He is the exact representation of His person”…“The Word became flesh…”…and a host of others…“mythic” language to seek to explain and “qualify” an extraordinary life.
I believe Jesus of Nazareth was 100% human…and somehow in a way I do not understand…nor pretend to…God lived among us and was one of us.
NOW…the “hows and wherefores” of “Imanuel, God with us”…I don’t know…and “somehow” his death showed the great love of God for humanity…For me…Jesus of Nazareth IS the Love of the Father personified.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
How do you know that the BTK killer did not have a heart’s desire to follow God’s commandments, but a weakness in his flesh that kept him from doing so? Maybe he only killed 14 out of 28 times the opportunity presented it? Is he saved then? I’m sorry, but this kind of analysis just isn’t honest in my opinion. It seems to be an exception that swallows the rule. It leaves open to question anyone who commits any form of sin aftter their moment of being “saved.” Where’e the “assurance” in that kind of scenario?
Conscious Coward:
So, are you saying that all one needs to do is good works to ensure that they have “real” faith? What sort of works make one’s faith “real?” Can I wait until just before I die to do a good work that manifests my saving faith? How would that work out for me, do you think?
I don’t mean to sound harsh, but I think that this sort of rationale just does not stand up to real criticism. I think it sounds good in the moment, but is nothing more than a rationalization to attempt to distinguish the extreme circumstance. Either faith saves entirely apart from works, in which case BTK is assured of his salvation, or works play some role in our actual salvation (not just the manifestation of salvation), in which case BTK is not assured of his salvation. I believe the latter is biblical, while the former is not.
Peace,
Robert
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wisdomseeker
Guest
But if you believe that the Bible has errors, who are the spiritual thinkers that you rely on that forms what you believe?
would you say that Catholics have a lot more to believe that any others?
where did you get the belief that Jesus was a 100% man? what about 100% God, do you believe this?
It seems that there lots of things that you dont know or understand. Would you say that the CC does explains a lot of things that you dont know or understand?
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